DUST Search - Imagine a DUST

Lynn Beck wrote:

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

Armored Core V's online died in about 3 or 4 months for everyone outside of Japan, because of a multitude of reasons.

A major one was the lack of playerbase, a problem DUST shares, but to a greater extreme. In Japan, the Armored Core franchise is hugely popular, and even there, ACV online had mostly died out about 7 or 8 months after release, and has since had its servers shut down across all regions. If they copy/pasted the mechanics from Armored Core into DUST, the even smaller playerbase would cause the system to flop even faster than it did in the original game.

Another part of the problem is that there was a limit of 20 players, which is a problem DUST doesn't share.

The biggest problem, however, is that if enemies can freely attack you at any time, players will attack and wear down your corp's defenses while you're online, and people will AVOID attacking when you're online, so you won't be able to defend as you need in order to repair your territory.

There's a reason Armored Core: Verdict Day didn't continue with the same mechanics they used in the previous game, and that reason is quite simply that THEY DON'T WORK.

I remember joining in after about 7 months of being active.

We had 80 player peak, but we had a pretty darned hardcore playerbase.

Also, DUST has 5k average.

ANYBODY could run a raid, but only elite would be able to successfully raid a well thought out base.

Also, selecting Defense makes any attack in that area select them.(this is one i want to question, is the randomization of the attacks)
Though it DOES solve many problems of PC's.

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Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1156	Posted - 2014.04.14 21:34:00 - [1] - Quote Without any vehicles. Without anything except cookie cutter rifles(albeit they have unique firing mechanisms, and ammo types.) Without Heavies/Scouts. That, right there. It's Battlefield, only you pay for each spawn. We need things like PC, but they need to actually work. We need the ability to cause somebody PAIN. We want to hear DNS complain on the forums that people are weakening their defenses when they're not online. We want the ability to send a squad of 64 against a corp of 6. We need things that are RIDICULOUSLY unfair, we need the ability for a small corp, if well coordinated enough, to be able to topple corporations 6-100x their size. One such example: Armored Core V. You have your districts. Each district does little more than sit there, but it's fun to fight over them. Rhere were like 3000 districts, spread over 6 or so maps. 500 districts per map. All you did was say " i want to attack this region, and take a district sometime this week." So you would select Raid or something, and select your map/region. You would attack the map, randomly selected(it might be an Ally's map, or it will be a Enemy.) You attack the AI turrets the district owner has placed, and, upon destruction, you get a report: District owner District AP(armor points, if this hits 0, you take it) Amount of Credits lost by owner(used automatically to repair turrets) This is a very slow way to take a district, howver having 10-20 people online solo running these drops it's AP surely. In about 2 days, you'll have your first district. The way you regen AP on these districts, is by successfuly defending one. Owner would select a district with low AP, and select Defend. Your squad of up to 4(with a operator, providing drone scans and placing markers, beacons and calling enemy loadouts.) You sit and wait(up to an hour sometimes) and when somebody decides to attack that region, they're automatically selected to attack your district. If you lose- the district loses 10% AP If you win- district gains like 10% AP. How this could be handled in DUST: Give us a CRU inside the map that needs to be destroyed. Destroying the CRU destroys about 30 clones. Give us prehacked installations(XL would be on top of the building, L would be the current turret locations, and Small would be located in cielings and around doorways.) The owner can customize these to their hearts' content, placing XL missile installations or XL rails.(however you would be limited as to the areas it's possible, kinda of like the current Socket system.) You could put a Blaster installation near doorways, or you could put a missile inside. The attackers will have to first destroy at least 90% o the turrets, then begin attacking the Cru- however there's also drones to defend it: HMG drones, Forge drones, Scrambler rifle Drones, Scrambler Lance drones. S,m,L, logistic, and HAV drones. What do you think, would this seperate DUST enough from the blandness of lobby shooters? General John Ripper is my 2nd best friend!
Smooth Assassin Stardust incorporation IMMORTAL REGIME 1242	Posted - 2014.04.14 21:38:00 - [2] - Quote I don't think so. A game with limited features doesn't cut it for me, i like heavies and scouts too. *Assassination is my thing.*
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1157	Posted - 2014.04.14 21:43:00 - [3] - Quote Smooth Assassin wrote: I don't think so. A game with limited features doesn't cut it for me, i like heavies and scouts too. No no no. I'm not advocating that. I'm saying that,aside from Classes and this myth of PC, that what we have is a CoD clone. Reread th OP, there's a wall of text for a reason. General John Ripper is my 2nd best friend!
Robert Conway Concordiat Mercenaries Dropsuit Samurai 60	Posted - 2014.04.14 21:46:00 - [4] - Quote Seems interesting. Would most likely need some tweaking though. But this entire game needs tweaking, so I guess it would be fine then. Haha. :)
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1158	Posted - 2014.04.14 21:49:00 - [5] - Quote Any system would need tweaking, as they're all imperfect. Though i really like the idea of Pve through weakening the enemy's districts. General John Ripper is my 2nd best friend!
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 1844	Posted - 2014.04.14 21:56:00 - [6] - Quote I like it. I like it lots. PvE? Check. Improved PC mechanics? Check. Interesting and different than other shooters? Check. Nerdier than thou
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1159	Posted - 2014.04.14 22:05:00 - [7] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: I like it. I like it lots. PvE? Check. Improved PC mechanics? Check. Interesting and different than other shooters? Check. I've always liked the district ownership in ACV, because you could make each district yours, you had complete control over where each turret went, you could put a sniper battery on that roof, or a Artillery. In that corner where people keep attacking from, you could put either a Energy Vamp and AOe turrets, or a Speed jammer (like webifiers) and spam sniper rounds from across the river. You had some f the best tactics ever avalable to you: I could stack Jammers, and rely entirely on Melee, or i could make a scout with Sniper rifles, relying entirely on dealing damage outside of your range, putting a Subcomputer(think of a Targeting Array in Eve, makes locking quicker) to get out my shots before any chance of counteratta General John Ripper is my 2nd best friend!
Robert Conway Concordiat Mercenaries Dropsuit Samurai 60	Posted - 2014.04.14 23:14:00 - [8] - Quote Speaking of FanFest, they should have an easily accessible way for us dust 514 players to view the presentations over the internet. They have it for Eve players, but not dust players.
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1159	Posted - 2014.04.15 02:01:00 - [9] - Quote Bump for the later crowd :3 General John Ripper is my 2nd best friend!
Patrick57 6999	Posted - 2014.04.15 02:13:00 - [10] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Without any vehicles. I didn't have to read any further. This, right here, would make me quit. Hell is empty and all the devils are here. -William Shakespeare

Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1160	Posted - 2014.04.15 02:15:00 - [11] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Without any vehicles. I didn't have to read any further. This, right here, would make me quit. Please, i have more to say "mentions ridiculously long OP" General John Ripper is my 2nd best friend!
137H4RGIC Sver true blood General Tso's Alliance 159	Posted - 2014.04.15 02:22:00 - [12] - Quote I think they should definitely fix pc so a Corp of about 32 people cannot defend themselves against New eden
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1160	Posted - 2014.04.15 02:45:00 - [13] - Quote 137H4RGIC wrote: I think they should definitely fix pc so a Corp of about 32 people cannot defend themselves against New eden True that. However it should also be possible for a team of 32 to take and hold about 2 districts, through defending and re-upping their district that they took through cunning and diligence. A organized corp of 12 would be able to weaken the larger corp's defenses, and without them having a morning defense team/steady ISK supply for turrets, they will lose it. General John Ripper is my 2nd best friend!
Criteria Shipment Dogs of War Gaming Zero-Day 792	Posted - 2014.04.15 03:19:00 - [14] - Quote I actually like it to be honest. Its like making a fortress with a bunch of turrets and it was just there to buy us some time or for ***** and giggles. Goodbye, world! (püú-ÿ+í-ÿ-é)
Robert Conway Concordiat Mercenaries Dropsuit Samurai 60	Posted - 2014.04.15 05:35:00 - [15] - Quote Friendly bump for merrit of this idea.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 9501	Posted - 2014.04.15 06:16:00 - [16] - Quote I would like to see a system in PC whereby conquest of planets can take days of attrition based flash points and PVE engagements..... where friendlies can enter the district and make repairs to, counter PvE, and fighting directly enemies. I would also like to see a district provide other benefits to a corporations rather than simply clones or direct ISK payouts. Perhaps from Dust we can place industry orders and or set the autonomous systems would mine, or begin producing our orders....etc. Let low and Null Sec systems become all out battledfields where players have to wear down districts for the final invasion timer, where largers corps who have few members can hire out smaller corps to PvE districts while they focus on their primary battles. Where players from similar regions can form coalitions to PvE down or PvE up districts to protect their own, and force out others. Where there are so many districts owning them all is not desireable or feasible, but owning dozens or hundreds is a show of forces and strength. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1166	Posted - 2014.04.15 06:26:00 - [17] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I would like to see a system in PC whereby conquest of planets can take days of attrition based flash points and PVE engagements..... where friendlies can enter the district and make repairs to, counter PvE, and fighting directly enemies. I would also like to see a district provide other benefits to a corporations rather than simply clones or direct ISK payouts. Perhaps from Dust we can place industry orders and or set the autonomous systems would mine, or begin producing our orders....etc. Let low and Null Sec systems become all out battledfields where players have to wear down districts for the final invasion timer, where largers corps who have few members can hire out smaller corps to PvE districts while they focus on their primary battles. Where players from similar regions can form coalitions to PvE down or PvE up districts to protect their own, and force out others. Where there are so many districts owning them all is not desireable or feasible, but owning dozens or hundreds is a show of forces and strength. That's more or less my idea. Let PVE re-up our districts, or take them down. General John Ripper is my 2nd best friend!
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5107	Posted - 2014.04.15 07:41:00 - [18] - Quote Armored Core V's online died in about 3 or 4 months for everyone outside of Japan, because of a multitude of reasons. A major one was the lack of playerbase, a problem DUST shares, but to a greater extreme. In Japan, the Armored Core franchise is hugely popular, and even there, ACV online had mostly died out about 7 or 8 months after release, and has since had its servers shut down across all regions. If they copy/pasted the mechanics from Armored Core into DUST, the even smaller playerbase would cause the system to flop even faster than it did in the original game. Another part of the problem is that there was a limit of 20 players, which is a problem DUST doesn't share. The biggest problem, however, is that if enemies can freely attack you at any time, players will attack and wear down your corp's defenses while you're online, and people will AVOID attacking when you're online, so you won't be able to defend as you need in order to repair your territory. There's a reason Armored Core: Verdict Day didn't continue with the same mechanics they used in the previous game, and that reason is quite simply that THEY DON'T WORK.
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1173	Posted - 2014.04.15 15:49:00 - [19] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Armored Core V's online died in about 3 or 4 months for everyone outside of Japan, because of a multitude of reasons. A major one was the lack of playerbase, a problem DUST shares, but to a greater extreme. In Japan, the Armored Core franchise is hugely popular, and even there, ACV online had mostly died out about 7 or 8 months after release, and has since had its servers shut down across all regions. If they copy/pasted the mechanics from Armored Core into DUST, the even smaller playerbase would cause the system to flop even faster than it did in the original game. Another part of the problem is that there was a limit of 20 players, which is a problem DUST doesn't share. The biggest problem, however, is that if enemies can freely attack you at any time, players will attack and wear down your corp's defenses while you're online, and people will AVOID attacking when you're online, so you won't be able to defend as you need in order to repair your territory. There's a reason Armored Core: Verdict Day didn't continue with the same mechanics they used in the previous game, and that reason is quite simply that THEY DON'T WORK. I remember joining in after about 7 months of being active. We had 80 player peak, but we had a pretty darned hardcore playerbase. Also, DUST has 5k average. ANYBODY could run a raid, but only elite would be able to successfully raid a well thought out base. Also, selecting Defense makes any attack in that area select them.(this is one i want to question, is the randomization of the attacks) Though it DOES solve many problems of PC's. General John Ripper is my 2nd best friend!
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5109	Posted - 2014.04.15 17:28:00 - [20] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Armored Core V's online died in about 3 or 4 months for everyone outside of Japan, because of a multitude of reasons. A major one was the lack of playerbase, a problem DUST shares, but to a greater extreme. In Japan, the Armored Core franchise is hugely popular, and even there, ACV online had mostly died out about 7 or 8 months after release, and has since had its servers shut down across all regions. If they copy/pasted the mechanics from Armored Core into DUST, the even smaller playerbase would cause the system to flop even faster than it did in the original game. Another part of the problem is that there was a limit of 20 players, which is a problem DUST doesn't share. The biggest problem, however, is that if enemies can freely attack you at any time, players will attack and wear down your corp's defenses while you're online, and people will AVOID attacking when you're online, so you won't be able to defend as you need in order to repair your territory. There's a reason Armored Core: Verdict Day didn't continue with the same mechanics they used in the previous game, and that reason is quite simply that THEY DON'T WORK. I remember joining in after about 7 months of being active. We had 80 player peak, but we had a pretty darned hardcore playerbase. Also, DUST has 5k average. ANYBODY could run a raid, but only elite would be able to successfully raid a well thought out base. Also, selecting Defense makes any attack in that area select them.(this is one i want to question, is the randomization of the attacks) Though it DOES solve many problems of PC's. At the point you joined ACV, the game had died out, and been resurrected into a state where it was only viable because of a system of etiquette and honour rules being maintained by the players who controlled most of the territory in the game. That's not exactly a viable scenario for DUST. It was only viable in ACV because the game was already in the process of dying out and it was only the hardcore fanbase still keeping it ticking and FORCING it to operate with some semblance of functionality. Without player-created rules to work around the broken rules the game uses, the system in place in ACV was not viable. It didn't work when the community was active because it was far too easily exploitable. Also, the fact that you controlled individual territories within a region, but players could only attack the region and not a specific territory they wanted to try and capture was one of the major flaws in the game. You could spend 2 hours on "burn runs" attacking undefended locations and even if you brought them down to 0 AP, you wouldn't be able to capture anything until a fixed amount of time has passed to give the owners a chance to try and defend the territory and restore some AP. If your team had to leave after cleanly opening up a territory, then another team came along and beat the owners when they're defending, that team who did NONE of the work wearing down the defenses would take all the reward. If no other team came along, the defending team would be forced to watch while they lose their territory because someone burned it down to 0 then refused to fight and let them defend, and if the enemy team waited for the territory to open up, they would be able to attack and take control by fighting easy AI enemies and claim a "victory" without ever having to fight the players trying to legitimately hold their territory. Another problem - equally hard to prove or counter - was that when a territory was damaged by attackers, a defending team could use a "proxy" team to attack and deliberately lose so they could gain AP with a successful defense. Cheap exploits were easily found and taken advantage of on a regular basis across all regions, and only the Japanese version of the game had any form of moderation, with many players who ran alt teams getting caught and having not only their alts, but also the main accounts and their teams banned from play. The other cheap tactics, while players frowned upon them, were legitimate flaws in the mechanics and not abuses of PSN's allowance for multiple accounts.

Aseair Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 59	Posted - 2014.04.15 18:13:00 - [21] - Quote I'm down for PvE of any kind. I mean, it's not that I don't like stabbing you guys, I just think we should stab other things right now. It's not you guys, it's me....In all seriousness though, I think this is definitely one of the better ideas I've seen on here. Been itching to fight those drones since I saw the opening video way back when. Memento vos sunt immortales I am a scout. If you see me, I deserve to get shot.
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 2283	Posted - 2014.04.15 18:30:00 - [22] - Quote I like the idea!
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 2283	Posted - 2014.04.15 18:31:00 - [23] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I would like to see a system in PC whereby conquest of planets can take days of attrition based flash points and PVE engagements..... where friendlies can enter the district and make repairs to, counter PvE, and fighting directly enemies. I would also like to see a district provide other benefits to a corporations rather than simply clones or direct ISK payouts. Perhaps from Dust we can place industry orders and or set the autonomous systems would mine, or begin producing our orders....etc. Let low and Null Sec systems become all out battledfields where players have to wear down districts for the final invasion timer, where largers corps who have few members can hire out smaller corps to PvE districts while they focus on their primary battles. Where players from similar regions can form coalitions to PvE down or PvE up districts to protect their own, and force out others. Where there are so many districts owning them all is not desireable or feasible, but owning dozens or hundreds is a show of forces and strength. Also, this.
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1175	Posted - 2014.04.15 19:37:00 - [24] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: -snip- Hmm. Well i don't remember that. Although it would be reasonably flawed, if what you said was true, it's still a better place to start than the current PC mechanics. We NEED a way to take a district with Asian timers on it, that does not involve directly engaging them. It should take several days of constant attack to whittle down a district to 0, and, if the enemy doesn't re-up with their infinite ISK, lose it. My numbers were merely arbitrary, but you should be able to attack 4x a day, at any time. Place a Raid order, and in 30 minutes, the attack is initiated. This gives time for the defenders to form an emergency response team. Attacking 4x a day, you would outdestroy production facilities. At 20 clones a day net loss, you would be able to drop a 450 clone district in 22 days, so my math is probably WAY off. However, that's still a chance. That's ISK destruction, unwillingly, i might add. That's progress. We could shift some numbers about, we could make a shiny button on a rooftop that must be hit within 3 minutes of the attack. Whatever it is, we need a base. If CCP game design finds this usable as that foundation, then so be it. If CCP game design finds it ridiculous and not even usable as a template, then we all know what 90% of the playerbase thinks of them. Now if they gave reasonable points as to the specific problems in this system, or the ridiculous amounts of hard drive space/server strain/AI reproduction, then it was a good shot. Behind all that flawedness in Acv, wasn't placing your turrets fun? Wasn't reading the plethora of battle reports fun? We need ideas. Things that push the boundaries of "lobby shooter" and make it fun. Immersive. This game can't rely on looking like EVE and holding hands with people that wish to hold their district. General John Ripper is my 2nd best friend!
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5114	Posted - 2014.04.16 05:24:00 - [25] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: -snip- Hmm. Well i don't remember that. Although it would be reasonably flawed, if what you said was true, it's still a better place to start than the current PC mechanics. I was involved with Armored Core V as a regular player from its release day right up to the release of the sequel, Verdict Day, which I'm still playing regularly alongisde friends (one of whom wrote a good FAQ about the game). I know what I'm talking about here, and that IS how it worked. Quote: We NEED a way to take a district with Asian timers on it, that does not involve directly engaging them. WHY? What reason is there for you to NEED a way to take control of a district without needing to directly fight its owners before claiming it? Quote: It should take several days of constant attack to whittle down a district to 0, and, if the enemy doesn't re-up with their infinite ISK, lose it. My numbers were merely arbitrary, but you should be able to attack 4x a day, at any time. Place a Raid order, and in 30 minutes, the attack is initiated. This gives time for the defenders to form an emergency response team. Attacking 4x a day, you would outdestroy production facilities. At 20 clones a day net loss, you would be able to drop a 450 clone district in 22 days, so my math is probably WAY off. Now THIS sounds more plausible. You SHOULD be able to weaken a district, wear it down, prevent production and various other things outside of the reinforcement timer period where you can capture it. It would be great to be able to queue "raid" missions which can happen immediately, or "invasion" missions which work on the reinforcement timer. If your team repeatedly raids the enemy district, you can interfere with clone production and possibly damage/corrupt/destroy some of the stored clones when you win, weakening the district and limiting its production capabilities for the day. It's perfectly reasonable to prevent capture of a district outside of a specific window set by the owners though. If a district remains at 0 production capabilities for a certain period without being repaired after getting beaten down, it should become "abandoned". If you own a district, you'll have to work on damage control when you've been attacked outside of your reinforcement timer window, adding an extra ISK cost to holding onto those districts, which would help to somewhat balance out the profit involved. Quote: Behind all that flawedness in Acv, wasn't placing your turrets fun? Wasn't reading the plethora of battle reports fun? It was fun. And placing those turrets and creating your impenetrable defense network in Verdict Day is fun too - they kept that part, even though they massively reworked most of the other mechanics that work around it. Having customisable districts is a great idea. SOME of your proposal is really good, I'm not going to deny that, but ripping the core of ACV's territory system and trying to wedge it into DUST wouldn't work because that core system is not merely flawed, but broken.
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 1186	Posted - 2014.04.16 05:33:00 - [26] - Quote Eh, can't hope to have a perfext system when you're 19 and are flunking College General John Ripper is my 2nd best friend!


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