DUST Search - Make Medium Frame's EHP Mean

medomai grey wrote:

To make my point, I will be using the basic Amarr frames in an example.

Amarr Basic Frame_____EHP_____EHP Difference
Heavy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .960 . . . . . . . . . ---
--- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --- . . . . . . . . . .600
Medium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 360 . . . . . . . . .---
--- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --- . . . . . . . . . .130
Light . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .230 . . . . . . . . .---

Notice anything? The difference between medium and light EHP is only 21.667% the EHP difference between medium and heavy. Medium frames are closer to being light frames than medium frames in terms of EHP.

Medium frames should have an EHP closer to the mean average of heavy and light EHP. So in the example, the Amarr medium frame should have an EHP around 554.5.

The problem with fixing this problem is that through modules, a medium frame would be able to easily reach heavy levels of EHP. The most obvious solution would be to make armor plates and shield extenders give percentile bonuses instead of flat out number bonuses. With these two problems addressed, we can put an end to the cries to buff medium frames and stop suit EHP from trespassing into the domain of other classes.

PS: If you got the joke in the title, +1. Big smile

Edit: Special thanks to the creator of Protofits. Protofits was used to collect EHP values.

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medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 564	Posted - 2014.04.09 19:44:00 - [1] - Quote To make my point, I will be using the basic Amarr frames in an example. Amarr Basic Frame_____EHP_____EHP Difference Heavy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .960 . . . . . . . . . --- --- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --- . . . . . . . . . .600 Medium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 360 . . . . . . . . .--- --- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --- . . . . . . . . . .130 Light . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .230 . . . . . . . . .--- Notice anything? The difference between medium and light EHP is only 21.667% the EHP difference between medium and heavy. Medium frames are closer to being light frames than medium frames in terms of EHP. Medium frames should have an EHP closer to the mean average of heavy and light EHP. So in the example, the Amarr medium frame should have an EHP around 554.5. The problem with fixing this problem is that through modules, a medium frame would be able to easily reach heavy levels of EHP. The most obvious solution would be to make armor plates and shield extenders give percentile bonuses instead of flat out number bonuses. With these two problems addressed, we can put an end to the cries to buff medium frames and stop suit EHP from trespassing into the domain of other classes. PS: If you got the joke in the title, +1. I've been told that people prefer fake smiles over the honest expressions of their fellow men. : )
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 12174	Posted - 2014.04.09 19:48:00 - [2] - Quote This is a product of the fitting system. Naturally, as plates and extenders give the same amount of HP to all classes, when you have similar slot counts for each class %HP differences tend to get reduced. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. EUrobro
Marc Rime 371	Posted - 2014.04.09 19:52:00 - [3] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: This is a product of the fitting system. Naturally, as plates and extenders give the same amount of HP to all classes, when you have similar slot counts for each class %HP differences tend to get reduced. ...unless there is a penalty to stacking too many hp modules. There isn't (not really), but there should be.
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 564	Posted - 2014.04.09 19:58:00 - [4] - Quote Oh come on! No one got the joke in the title yet? I even left a big hint! I've been told that people prefer fake smiles over the honest expressions of their fellow men. : )
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 742	Posted - 2014.04.09 20:01:00 - [5] - Quote medomai grey wrote: To make my point, I will be using the basic Amarr frames in an example. Amarr Basic Frame_____EHP_____EHP Difference Heavy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .960 . . . . . . . . . --- --- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --- . . . . . . . . . .600 Medium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 360 . . . . . . . . .--- --- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --- . . . . . . . . . .130 Light . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .230 . . . . . . . . .--- Notice anything? The difference between medium and light EHP is only 21.667% the EHP difference between medium and heavy. Medium frames are closer to being light frames than medium frames in terms of EHP. Medium frames should have an EHP closer to the mean average of heavy and light EHP. So in the example, the Amarr medium frame should have an EHP around 554.5. The problem with fixing this problem is that through modules, a medium frame would be able to easily reach heavy levels of EHP. The most obvious solution would be to make armor plates and shield extenders give percentile bonuses instead of flat out number bonuses. With these two problems addressed, we can put an end to the cries to buff medium frames and stop suit EHP from trespassing into the domain of other classes. PS: If you got the joke in the title, +1. Edit: Special thanks to the creator of Protofits. Protofits was used to collect EHP values. Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: This is a product of the fitting system. Naturally, as plates and extenders give the same amount of HP to all classes, when you have similar slot counts for each class %HP differences tend to get reduced. QFT We either need different size HP mods (like tanks) or we need HP mods to be percentage based. medomai grey wrote: Oh come on! No one got the joke in the title yet? I even left a big hint! I think everyone did. Mean can be not only the mean = not nice, but also mean = central position(average). Fixing swarms
Asha Starwind DUST University Ivy League 772	Posted - 2014.04.09 20:35:00 - [6] - Quote I can now understand why CCP wanted to reduce heavy hp by 20%. I'd prefer that and a slight bump to med frame hp than just a large bump to med frame hp. Mad Bomber - 50% less profile Return dumbfire to Swarms
Waiyu Ren Seeker of The Path 97	Posted - 2014.04.09 20:36:00 - [7] - Quote Makes perfect sense, and such a simple fix too. Shouting doesn't make your opinion seem more valid, it just makes you seem more annoying.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 4108	Posted - 2014.04.10 05:11:00 - [8] - Quote Waiyu Ren wrote: Plate % makes perfect sense, and such a simple fix too. Everything else is percentage based, why not these? It makes too much sense. I think its a great fix. Heavy suits become heavier when stacking plates. Scouts only get a little bit tougher when stacking plates. It gives scouts an ability to have a small edge over other scouts with regards to toughness, but not enough to break into med frame regions. They would need to scale the movement speed penalty to reflect this though. They would also need to re-evaluate scout eHP. Even a 100% boost to Min Scout base eHP only gets you to 340 eHP, which is still REALLY low when you consider weapon DPS. My PC scout runs between 357-430 eHP. This seems right for a good Min Scout. I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 608	Posted - 2014.04.20 02:12:00 - [9] - Quote bump Medium frame EHP is not medium
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 2380	Posted - 2014.04.20 02:15:00 - [10] - Quote medomai grey wrote: Oh come on! No one got the joke in the title yet? I even left a big hint! It's not that we didn't get it. It's that we didn't care.

Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2760	Posted - 2014.04.20 02:25:00 - [11] - Quote The issue with percentage based plates (I suggested this about a month ago, and I'm sure people did before me) is that 20% is worthless on a scout (I mean, that's 30HP on GalScout) but an obscene amount on a heavy (150 on Amarr Sentinel). It would be difficult to have plates that offered a balanced number for all tiers without having different plates with different PG/CPU costs, and then that makes balancing incredibly challenging. ak.0 4 LYFE I am the Lorhak. I speak for the trees.
Silver Strike44 Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 31	Posted - 2014.04.20 03:03:00 - [12] - Quote Not that movement speed is quite as important as hp, but heavies are quite a bit slower than mediums compared to the difference between lights and mediums. Filler
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 558	Posted - 2014.04.20 03:09:00 - [13] - Quote medomai grey wrote: Oh come on! No one got the joke in the title yet? I even left a big hint! Went over my head honestly i thought it was just a typo. Usually mean when meant to be an average is stated as the mean average.
Rusty Shallows 1587	Posted - 2014.04.20 03:40:00 - [14] - Quote Marc Rime wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: This is a product of the fitting system. Naturally, as plates and extenders give the same amount of HP to all classes, when you have similar slot counts for each class %HP differences tend to get reduced. ...unless there is a penalty to stacking too many hp modules. There isn't (not really), but there should be. The slot system didn't port over from Eve all that well. The current method of monstrous fitting requirements is only half working, sometimes failing with the example of Kin-Cats (aka Red Bottles). Rather than Highs & Lows they could have have had the potential problem areas segregate: Protection Slots (Extenders, Reppers), Frame/Mobility Slots (Bionics, CPU/PG buff mods, Blue Bottles), Electronic Slots (Code-Breakers, Precision Enhancers, Dampeners, Damage Mods). Having more or fewer could have helped stop Frames from "breaking-out" of the intended limits. Heavies and Lights have fewer Protective Slots. Heavies and Mediums fewer Frame/Mobility Slots. Heavies and Assaults have fewer Electronic Slots. Lights get extra Frame/Mobility Slots followed by Assaults. Logis get extra Electronics Slots followed by Lights. Assaults have a little more Protection Slots followed closely by Logis. Whatever. I like the percentages idea. Forums > Game: So here is a cookie and a Like. Please keep posting. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ >>>
Bormir1r Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 346	Posted - 2014.04.20 06:09:00 - [15] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Waiyu Ren wrote: Plate % makes perfect sense, and such a simple fix too. Everything else is percentage based, why not these? It makes too much sense. I think its a great fix. Heavy suits become heavier when stacking plates. Scouts only get a little bit tougher when stacking plates. It gives scouts an ability to have a small edge over other scouts with regards to toughness, but not enough to break into med frame regions. They would need to scale the movement speed penalty to reflect this though. They would also need to re-evaluate scout eHP. Even a 100% boost to Min Scout base eHP only gets you to 340 eHP, which is still REALLY low when you consider weapon DPS. My PC scout runs between 357-430 eHP. This seems right for a good Min Scout. It's very hard to get Min suits over 400 eHP and produce speed tanking fittings... "One does not simply" run 11.12 m/s. You do it with 63.00 Stamina Regen.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 8601	Posted - 2014.04.20 06:58:00 - [16] - Quote We could get different sized plates and extenders for infantry. IIRC heavies use 20mm plates, so I guess mediums and lights will be using 10mm plates? Overlord of all humans CAT MERC
KatanaPT Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 701	Posted - 2014.04.21 13:16:00 - [17] - Quote +1 Tech Guard Recruiting Video
Scheneighnay McBob Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4880	Posted - 2014.04.21 14:28:00 - [18] - Quote NO Wtf is with everyone wanting to brick tank? This isn't halo. What SHOULD be changed about assaults is increased shield and armor regen. I'm from the weird side of the internet
Takron Nistrom Tinfoil Hatz 344	Posted - 2014.04.21 14:33:00 - [19] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Waiyu Ren wrote: Plate % makes perfect sense, and such a simple fix too. Everything else is percentage based, why not these? It makes too much sense. I think its a great fix. Heavy suits become heavier when stacking plates. Scouts only get a little bit tougher when stacking plates. It gives scouts an ability to have a small edge over other scouts with regards to toughness, but not enough to break into med frame regions. They would need to scale the movement speed penalty to reflect this though. They would also need to re-evaluate scout eHP. Even a 100% boost to Min Scout base eHP only gets you to 340 eHP, which is still REALLY low when you consider weapon DPS. My PC scout runs between 357-430 eHP. This seems right for a good Min Scout. I agree. My thread on Inertial Modifiers for plates fits right into this idea. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=156016 GÇ£Pulvis et umbra sumus. (We are but dust and shadow.)GÇ¥ GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 618	Posted - 2014.04.21 18:54:00 - [20] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: NO Wtf is with everyone wanting to brick tank? This isn't halo. What SHOULD be changed about assaults is increased shield and armor regen. This thread does not address the assault suits directly as it covers ALL medium frame suits. The suggestions by myself and others would actually make brick tanking less effective. Your suggestion does not address the medium frames having similar light frame EHP values. Medium frame EHP is not medium

Ander Thedas Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 523	Posted - 2014.04.21 19:14:00 - [21] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: The issue with percentage based plates (I suggested this about a month ago, and I'm sure people did before me) is that 20% is worthless on a scout (I mean, that's 30HP on GalScout) but an obscene amount on a heavy (150 on Amarr Sentinel). It would be difficult to have plates that offered a balanced number for all tiers without having different plates with different PG/CPU costs, and then that makes balancing incredibly challenging. Easy solution to this would be to provide different types plates with different %s, but the higher the % the lower the ceiling cap. So, a scout could have a plate at 25% which caps out at, say 60 health. But a Heavy could make better use of plate that gives a 10% armor bonus but caps out at 200. Omnia mutantur nihil interit FW lvl10 reward
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 467	Posted - 2014.04.21 19:15:00 - [22] - Quote medomai grey wrote: Oh come on! No one got the joke in the title yet? I even left a big hint! Average! Bang?
medomai grey WarRavens League of Infamy 620	Posted - 2014.04.21 19:29:00 - [23] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: medomai grey wrote: Oh come on! No one got the joke in the title yet? I even left a big hint! Average! :( Medium frame EHP is not medium
ISuperstar DIOS X. II 305	Posted - 2014.05.13 08:59:00 - [24] - Quote Bump Still Not Banned, Never Will Be, I Own CCP And This Forum Is My Personal Toilet.
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 879	Posted - 2014.05.13 12:32:00 - [25] - Quote This is why I've been an advocate of eve parity since I started this game. Eve addresses this already. Frigates have their own plates, cruisers gave their own plates, and battleships have their own plates. good luck try to fit a 1600mm plate for a battleship on a frigate. Light suits should have light plates (10-20mm for example.) mediums have 30-40mm plates and heavies have 50-60mm 60mm is around 2.5 inches. seems right if not a little thick. Assign armor values accordingly. Light plate starts at 40 and ends at 80 for high end where medium plates take over. Though I'm not a fan of that system for an fps when lights and mediums use the same weapons. that's another issue altogether. A better solution is to have values over lap. So the highest end light armor plate that offers the most protection for a light suit would fall between basic and advanced on mediums. And s high end medium plate would fall between a basic and advanced heavy plate. so think _50-74-98 ____86-^-110-135 __________122-^-146-170 You can change the values across the board as needed. I'm just keeping a 24 base change per tier and going by the current stats. of course heavy plates would cost more pg/cpu to stop light suits from using them and would have a higher penalty on weight. Shields would be affected as well, and im not including my ideas on resistance stats/mods or giving shields passive tanking along with rebalancing weapons. Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Heroes in a half Gank! *TURTLE POWER!!!*
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 251	Posted - 2014.08.06 15:48:00 - [26] - Quote medomai grey wrote: To make my point, I will be using the basic Amarr frames in an example. Amarr Basic Frame_____EHP_____EHP Difference Heavy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .960 . . . . . . . . . --- --- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --- . . . . . . . . . .600 Medium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 360 . . . . . . . . .--- --- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --- . . . . . . . . . .130 Light . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .230 . . . . . . . . .--- Notice anything? The difference between medium and light EHP is only 21.667% the EHP difference between medium and heavy. Medium frames are closer to being light frames than medium frames in terms of EHP. Medium frames should have an EHP closer to the mean average of heavy and light EHP. So in the example, the Amarr medium frame should have an EHP around 554.5. The problem with fixing this problem is that through modules, a medium frame would be able to easily reach heavy levels of EHP. The most obvious solution would be to make armor plates and shield extenders give percentile bonuses instead of flat out number bonuses. With these two problems addressed, we can put an end to the cries to buff medium frames and stop suit EHP from trespassing into the domain of other classes. PS: If you got the joke in the title, +1. Edit: Special thanks to the creator of Protofits. Protofits was used to collect EHP values. charlie amarr assult suit will get like 1600 ehp when fit for ehp. thats basically more then proto sentinels if you exclude the damage resistance Logibro in training. Weapon Damage Profiles Quick List
Topher Mellen Scott-Mellen Corporation 87	Posted - 2014.08.06 16:53:00 - [27] - Quote I've seen this exact same thread about a month ago. Post this in feedback where it wont get lost as quickly. This forum is for trolling and stupid conversation.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 7035	Posted - 2014.08.06 16:58:00 - [28] - Quote Honestly they just need to make Health Modules easier to stack while support Modules easier to stack, except armor repairs. Those need to cost a helluva lot. Then Give Gallente Assault a fitting reduction to Armor Repair modules or something like that. Overall something needs to be done to address dual tanking. Until dual tanking is fixed I think you're going to you're going to have to backtrack all this weapon balance when it's finally fixed. see you space cowboy...
Boot Booter Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 831	Posted - 2014.08.06 18:59:00 - [29] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: charlie amarr assult suit will get like 1600 ehp when fit for ehp. thats basically more then proto sentinels if you exclude the damage resistance That's just not true. Perhaps with the potential HP buff you could get around 1450. The new Amarr sentinel will easily surpass this by 400 ehp. Both of these fits would be ****** brick tanks though What happened to the repair tool glow? Why won't CCP answer? Conspiracy?
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4635	Posted - 2014.08.06 21:21:00 - [30] - Quote medomai grey wrote: To make my point, I will be using the basic Amarr frames in an example. Amarr Basic Frame_____EHP_____EHP Difference Heavy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .960 . . . . . . . . . --- --- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --- . . . . . . . . . .600 Medium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 360 . . . . . . . . .--- --- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . --- . . . . . . . . . .130 Light . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .230 . . . . . . . . .--- Notice anything? The difference between medium and light EHP is only 21.667% the EHP difference between medium and heavy. Medium frames are closer to being light frames than medium frames in terms of EHP. Medium frames should have an EHP closer to the mean average of heavy and light EHP. So in the example, the Amarr medium frame should have an EHP around 554.5. The problem with fixing this problem is that through modules, a medium frame would be able to easily reach heavy levels of EHP. The most obvious solution would be to make armor plates and shield extenders give percentile bonuses instead of flat out number bonuses. With these two problems addressed, we can put an end to the cries to buff medium frames and stop suit EHP from trespassing into the domain of other classes. PS: If you got the joke in the title, +1. Edit: Special thanks to the creator of Protofits. Protofits was used to collect EHP values. Nice job omitting hit box and strafe speed data, which shreds the argument apart.



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