DUST Search - Allowing EVE players to Give Dust Players isk

Maken Tosch wrote:

It depends on how CCP handles it. From an economic point of view, the logical first step to establishing a stable secondary market in Dust is to FIRST AND FOREMOST fix PC. PC in it's current state despite some changes it recently had, is still a bit of an ISK faucet. There is also the infamous ALT-recycling exploit that needs to be addressed. If they address that first, then we can proceed to the next step.

The second logical step is to establish a series of ISK sinks. Eve Online has a lot of ISK but in small bits that are subtle but add up quickly. Broker Fees are imposed at a flat rate (adjustable via skill books) on any buy/sell orders you establish. Taxes are imposed on any sales you make (also adjustable via skill books) as a percentage of the value of the sale. There are also fees imposed on modifying current buy/sell orders on the market that are your own. There are export taxes imposed whenever you transfer planetary materials from the planet to the customs office in orbit. As you can see, fees, taxes, and tariffs are literally everywhere in New Eden. Even the use of NPC facilities such as repair services and manufacturing/research/invention slots will force you to pay a fee of some form. This is a great way to keep ISK flow under control.

The third and final step is to introduce material requirements for the operation and maintenance of planetary districts. Those outposts won't fuel themselves and thus can force even the most powerful corps to invest heavily in buying or harvesting materials needed to fuel those districts.

If done right, this will bleed off the excess ISK without needing to do any ISK/Asset wipes and can keep the ISK flow under control.

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Captain Africa Clone1 GRIM MARCH D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 164	Posted - 2014.04.08 14:42:00 - [31] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: Captain Africa Clone1 wrote: The dark cloud wrote: Hmm lets just recap this a bit: -i can make 30 million ISK within like 20 mins of eve. Thats more then enough to fund a dust char for like a whole month. CCP is not going to allow that simply cause it would ruin their buisness model for dust. And i explain you how this works: -rich players stomp n00bs non stop with high end equipment -n00bs get upset and frustrated -n00bs then go and buy AUR to fund AUR suits This is basically how it works, frustrate the majority of players and then they buy stuff stright from CCP. Allowing enormous sums of ISK to be transfered from eve would crash this ecconomical system. Sure there is no ecconomy between players but there surely is ecconomy for CCP. CCP buisness model should change from "gear to skill" Everyone would want to train faster ..make suits and weapons even more specialized so it would take months to get that t2 variant...that is not necessary more op but cheaper than the proto version.. There is such a huge market out there ..CCP should stop focusing on the small picture and start looking at the big picture ...the meta game should work it self out all together..when we have 50 -100 k player base..it has the potential ! Are you nuts? Even longer to get decent stuff? Hell no that would suck for new players even more. T2 variant = cheaper not better gear ...learn to read Join the March ,see the universe , meet interesting people and kill them G£¬ http://grimmarch.wix.com/grim-march-ver1
Captain Africa Clone1 GRIM MARCH D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 164	Posted - 2014.04.08 14:45:00 - [32] - Quote 21yrOld Knight wrote: Conversion rates are currently at between 6:1 and 3:1. There should be tax that would cause isk exchange between dust and eve to be at similar ratios. Why ? Fuxk the tax idea a suit doesnt cost the same money as a space ship... Join the March ,see the universe , meet interesting people and kill them G£¬ http://grimmarch.wix.com/grim-march-ver1
1pawn dust Algintal Core Gallente Federation 116	Posted - 2014.04.08 14:48:00 - [33] - Quote They should implement this, would help get some new players in EvE has bunnies go running off to sell PLEX xD Also PC made any problems regarding this completely irrelevant by now
Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 1385	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:10:00 - [34] - Quote Captain Africa Clone1 wrote: 21yrOld Knight wrote: Conversion rates are currently at between 6:1 and 3:1. There should be tax that would cause isk exchange between dust and eve to be at similar ratios. Why ? Fuxk the tax idea a suit doesnt cost the same money as a space ship... (edit even more) this game should be played ......guns blazing ! its ccps stupid idea to create demand on the suits and gear instead of skill :( For balance reasons. Your suit still is much cheaper than a spaceship, but your EVE ISK gets taxed at a heavy rate. The alternative is to radically redesign the payouts from matches so an hour of playing dust frugally should generate roughly the same ISK as an average EVE player running level 4 missions. It's not hard to get billions of ISK in EVE. That kind of cash would ruin the risk vs. ISK in DUST. Tax it so your billion becomes 100 million (or whatever the rate is) and things are much more reasonable. Having a living market is a huge part of what makes New Eden special. Killing someone wearing a shiny suit will cause demand for the suit/modules/weapons to rise by 1, which will result in the price increasing on the aggregate for those items. With as much gear as we destroy, having EVE-side production/distribution for DUST gear will be a huge boost to the New Eden Economy. Best PvE idea ever!
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1267	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:13:00 - [35] - Quote yes do that and I will give myself lifetime supply of proto stuff in isk
21yrOld Knight Proficiency V. 656	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:26:00 - [36] - Quote Captain Africa Clone1 wrote: 21yrOld Knight wrote: Conversion rates are currently at between 6:1 and 3:1. There should be tax that would cause isk exchange between dust and eve to be at similar ratios. Why ? Fuxk the tax idea a suit doesnt cost the same money as a space ship... (edit even more) this game should be played ......guns blazing ! its ccps stupid idea to create demand on the suits and gear instead of skill :( Don't dodge the word filter. It is a bannable offense. Dust isn't P2W. If you have a eve account you shouldn't be able to beat the game in a matter of seconds. The main idea of the game is to make money. If someone can get a lifetime amount of isk in a matter of seconds is flawed. I don't understand what your 2nd point is about suits and money. If your talking about the conversion rate, it is more difficult to make isk in dust then eve. Since of that demand for dust isk is higher then eve isk. In turn causing conversion rates to favor older dust mercs. Mike Ruan Said i was Dust Famous! Did he just talk in #'s Volunteer member of the Arkombine, but i don't want out.
21yrOld Knight Proficiency V. 656	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:27:00 - [37] - Quote 1pawn dust wrote: They should implement this, would help get some new players in EvE has bunnies go running off to sell PLEX xD Also PC made any problems regarding this completely irrelevant by now You're joking right? I know people who plex using profits from PC. Mike Ruan Said i was Dust Famous! Did he just talk in #'s Volunteer member of the Arkombine, but i don't want out.
Cenex Langly D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 712	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:29:00 - [38] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: Yes, this is still a problem, I could literally manufacture ISK for myself then, even worse, I could have someone transfer billions to me. If you don't see this as a problem, then wow man, just wow. Some corps are already making hundreds of millions of ISK each day. So this would only allow the rest of us to be on the same playing field. God I would love to move my Eve fortune to dust. Newb
21yrOld Knight Proficiency V. 656	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:34:00 - [39] - Quote Cenex Langly wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: Yes, this is still a problem, I could literally manufacture ISK for myself then, even worse, I could have someone transfer billions to me. If you don't see this as a problem, then wow man, just wow. Some corps are already making hundreds of millions of ISK each day. So this would only allow the rest of us to be on the same playing field. God I would love to move my Eve fortune to dust. Out of all of the corps that are making hundreds of millions oer day, how many of them are not in DNS Mike Ruan Said i was Dust Famous! Did he just talk in #'s Volunteer member of the Arkombine, but i don't want out.
Jadd Hatchen The Phoenix Federation 433	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:37:00 - [40] - Quote Spartacus Dust wrote: Would this be a problem, maybe in the past it would've, but considering that one alliance owns all the wealth (GOD I FEEL LIKE A 99% HIPPY) I don't see it as a problem now. using a third party to transfer eve isk to dust isk is creative and smart, but impractical for trust issues, ratios, etc... It has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with combining the markets in EVE (Yes there are MORE than one) with the market in DUST. I go into painful detail on this issue here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=137656&find=unread

DeeJay One Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 253	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:53:00 - [41] - Quote Fixing PC should bring and end to those stockpiles pretty quickly. One solution would be either outsourcing clone production out to EVE and/or making them require resources to produce, so they won't be free ISK with only a small margin. Direct EVE to Dust ISK transfer would be madness, I could fund myself for the next two years of game time with the ISK I have in EVE...
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 1072	Posted - 2014.04.08 16:03:00 - [42] - Quote Shion Typhon wrote: The "economy" in Dust is already so completely busted only a full reset can fix it, so why not, let the chortles commence. DUST has no economy. It has as much economy as single player Diablo does. If you gave everyone a billion isk in DUST, almost nothing would change. You would have people using their most expensive fits but it isn't that huge of a deal because people already do that anyway. Give everyone in EVE a billion isk and the game would pretty much collapse. When the learning skills were removed from EVE and the SP given back as a bonus, they were trying to determine if they could refund the ISK value of all the used Skill Books in EVE. They asked their economist and, quote, "he fell out of his chair. After he sat up he asked 'please, no'." Yet the did it in DUST with no problem because the game has no economy. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7850	Posted - 2014.04.08 16:41:00 - [43] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Shion Typhon wrote: The "economy" in Dust is already so completely busted only a full reset can fix it, so why not, let the chortles commence. DUST has no economy. It has as much economy as single player Diablo does. If you gave everyone a billion isk in DUST, almost nothing would change. You would have people using their most expensive fits but it isn't that huge of a deal because people already do that anyway. Give everyone in EVE a billion isk and the game would pretty much collapse. When the learning skills were removed from EVE and the SP given back as a bonus, they were trying to determine if they could refund the ISK value of all the used Skill Books in EVE. They asked their economist and, quote, "he fell out of his chair. After he sat up he asked 'please, no'." Yet the did it in DUST with no problem because the game has no economy. I can confirm that the lead economist did fall out of his chair upon hearing CCP's suggestion. Lol Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Argent Mordred DUST University Ivy League 56	Posted - 2014.04.08 17:17:00 - [44] - Quote What we need is for a clean reset to happen. Some players have been playing since when there was hardly anything to buy and have thus saved so much money that they can never spend it all. Once CCP has figured out how to merge Eve and Dust's economy and/or allowed for a real market with player2player sales, they should allow everyone to keep their sp and aurum, but remove all non-bpo items and isk from everyone's account. CCP can't remove aurum as people payed real money for it, same with bpos, plus bpos are almost all militia items and don't affect the game balance the same way being able to buy an effectively unlimited amount of proto suits does. That way everyone will be on a level playing field for a short bit equipment wise, not skills wise though, and everyone can build up money on a more level field. I know that such a reset would be unpopular, but it is the only way to address the fact that some people have way more money than they could have earned if they had started with the current update and played the same amount of time. We can't fix that problem by adjust prices because anything that would clean out the 600m plus bank accounts would be unreasonable for anyone else.
Teilka Darkmist 298	Posted - 2014.04.28 05:56:00 - [45] - Quote The op's idea works, on the surface, until you realise that there's nothing to stop the people in the biggest corps and alliances from doing exactly the same thing. Considering you can get over a billion isk in EVE by spending -ú30 and selling the plex on the in game market, it would flood Dust with huge amount of isk for those who have eve accounts and leave those who haven't got one comparatively poor. Add the player driven market and prices for the best gear would soar, making it so that only people who have, or can get, eve accounts can afford to play at the high levels. Not everyone has access to a PC capable of running the eve client, or the disposable income to buy plex regularly. So despite being one of the people who does play eve, and can afford plex if I want to, I say that CCP made the right decision when they shut down the ability to transfer isk straight from Eve to Dust. Don't forget that CCP have their own in-house economist to help them make sure that the market stays stable enough for everyone to be able to play the games at all levels. I'm sure he's being consulted heavily as they decide what to do regarding the Dust market for when it goes to a player driven system. It would also potentially crash the Eve market and bring an end to the game itself as when it's suddenly innundated with plex, the price in game would crash and everyone would be able to afford to plex their accounts by just running missions for a day or two, Plex would be bought up in bulk and kept in stations as a stockpile of game time, people would stop paying for subscriptions, cutting CCP's income to a trickle which would mean they can't afford to develop either game anymore. Whilst that last is a worst case scenario, if I, who has no real training as an economist, can see the potential, then the experts at CCP can see that potential so they'll advise against it as strongly as they possibly can. It took years for the eve economy to get where it is today and it's only there because it handles both the supply and the demand of in game items. Without a way for players to produce everything in game, the dust economy will never get to the same point. People will point to eve players and say that they will produce the dropsuits, vehicles, weapons and modules that we need, but that's only true if they can make a profit at it, which means Dust needs a working economy before the markets are linked. Which won't happen whilst we can still buy everything from NPC's as they set an absolute maximum price that players will buy for. Right now, the dust and eve markets are incompatible with each other and CCP knows it. Woman. Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not. Not a KDR Worshipper.
Teilka Darkmist 298	Posted - 2014.04.28 06:19:00 - [46] - Quote Argent Mordred wrote: What we need is for a clean reset to happen. Some players have been playing since when there was hardly anything to buy and have thus saved so much money that they can never spend it all. Once CCP has figured out how to merge Eve and Dust's economy and/or allowed for a real market with player2player sales, they should allow everyone to keep their sp and aurum, but remove all non-bpo items and isk from everyone's account. CCP can't remove aurum as people payed real money for it, same with bpos, plus bpos are almost all militia items and don't affect the game balance the same way being able to buy an effectively unlimited amount of proto suits does. That way everyone will be on a level playing field for a short bit equipment wise, not skills wise though, and everyone can build up money on a more level field. I know that such a reset would be unpopular, but it is the only way to address the fact that some people have way more money than they could have earned if they had started with the current update and played the same amount of time. We can't fix that problem by adjust prices because anything that would clean out the 600m plus bank accounts would be unreasonable for anyone else. A clean reset is no longer possible in Dust without annoying a large percentage of players. Not just the top tier, but also the others who have played hard to get enough isk to stay on an even footing. Those who have all the isk, still control the methods for making the isk with the least risk, the PC districts. A reset of isk and items will only make it harder to take those off them as they'll more quickly make isk than even the most skilled players who aren't in those corps and alliances. Returning the game to the situation we're in now. I've recently heard on an eve podcast I listen to, although I can't remember which one right now, that one of the CPM members is excited about what CCP has planned for the future of Dust, although he obviously didn't give any details, so I'm waiting impatiently for the FanFest Dust keynote, hoping he's right because as it is, I can't see how Dust lasts much longer and I would love for Dust to have a resurgence and start to fulfill it's potential. Woman. Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not. Not a KDR Worshipper.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8138	Posted - 2014.04.28 06:41:00 - [47] - Quote Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2094808#post2094808 Maken Tosch wrote: It depends on how CCP handles it. From an economic point of view, the logical first step to establishing a stable secondary market in Dust is to FIRST AND FOREMOST fix PC. PC in it's current state despite some changes it recently had, is still a bit of an ISK faucet. There is also the infamous ALT-recycling exploit that needs to be addressed. If they address that first, then we can proceed to the next step. The second logical step is to establish a series of ISK sinks. Eve Online has a lot of ISK but in small bits that are subtle but add up quickly. Broker Fees are imposed at a flat rate (adjustable via skill books) on any buy/sell orders you establish. Taxes are imposed on any sales you make (also adjustable via skill books) as a percentage of the value of the sale. There are also fees imposed on modifying current buy/sell orders on the market that are your own. There are export taxes imposed whenever you transfer planetary materials from the planet to the customs office in orbit. As you can see, fees, taxes, and tariffs are literally everywhere in New Eden. Even the use of NPC facilities such as repair services and manufacturing/research/invention slots will force you to pay a fee of some form. This is a great way to keep ISK flow under control. The third and final step is to introduce material requirements for the operation and maintenance of planetary districts. Those outposts won't fuel themselves and thus can force even the most powerful corps to invest heavily in buying or harvesting materials needed to fuel those districts. If done right, this will bleed off the excess ISK without needing to do any ISK/Asset wipes and can keep the ISK flow under control. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 1345	Posted - 2014.04.28 06:48:00 - [48] - Quote Until they are allowed to give us isk I will allow them to give me head. Crush them
G Torq ALTA B2O 736	Posted - 2014.04.28 06:54:00 - [49] - Quote Spartacus Dust wrote: Would this be a problem, maybe in the past it would've, but considering that one alliance owns all the wealth (GOD I FEEL LIKE A 99% HIPPY) I don't see it as a problem now. using a third party to transfer eve isk to dust isk is creative and smart, but impractical for trust issues, ratios, etc... Re-read my Market Data #3 post from ca 2 weeks ago - I touched on this topic, alongside PC ISK and EVE Industry for DUST. Team Fairy DUST HTTP://Dust.Thang.DK/ - DUST514 Fitting Tool based on DUST SDE
Spartacus Dust NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 478	Posted - 2014.04.28 07:21:00 - [50] - Quote some of you people are a little bit too much tinfoil. Let's look at this from the most obvious CCP perspective: Opening the market -> Dust players get EVE accounts -> Dust players spend money on plex to change to isk -> CCP makes money. Then again I'm a free market kind of guy. It should be known that CCP will also intervene with the market if it becomes too unstable. Twitter @Matthew_Dust Executor of Caps and Mercs Alliance.

Operative 2511 Dajli True Companion Planetary Requisitions 65	Posted - 2014.04.28 07:31:00 - [51] - Quote Spartacus Dust wrote: Would this be a problem, maybe in the past it would've, but considering that one alliance owns all the wealth (GOD I FEEL LIKE A 99% HIPPY) I don't see it as a problem now. using a third party to transfer eve isk to dust isk is creative and smart, but impractical for trust issues, ratios, etc... Holy crap YES it would be a problem. In addition to easily making millions in EVE just off of margin trading in Jita; I can also buy and sell PLEX for more fake fun money. We need a new currency for trading funds. Lol, the ban hammer got me!
Teilka Darkmist 298	Posted - 2014.04.28 08:57:00 - [52] - Quote Operative 2511 Dajli wrote: Spartacus Dust wrote: Would this be a problem, maybe in the past it would've, but considering that one alliance owns all the wealth (GOD I FEEL LIKE A 99% HIPPY) I don't see it as a problem now. using a third party to transfer eve isk to dust isk is creative and smart, but impractical for trust issues, ratios, etc... Holy crap YES it would be a problem. In addition to easily making millions in EVE just off of margin trading in Jita; I can also buy and sell PLEX for more fake fun money. We need a new currency for trading funds. Lore wise, New Eden already has another currency. The regular citizens don't use Isk. Isk is used by the various immortals, corporations and governments. If I remember correctly, each empire has it's own currency for every day use, for things like food and clothes and everything else the people who aren't buying ships and starbases need to buy. Something like that would have been ideal for Dust as we're not buying things on the scale of spaceships. Sure our expense are higher than the average citizen, but not that much higher. Woman. Sniper, but from near the opponent's redline more often than not. Not a KDR Worshipper.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 99	Posted - 2014.04.28 13:52:00 - [53] - Quote Spartacus Dust wrote: Let's look at this from the most obvious CCP perspective: Opening the market -> Dust players get EVE accounts -> Dust players spend money on plex to change to isk -> CCP makes money. This. I (and my Eve alt, Min Lo) have operated a currency exchange converting player's isk between games, since September. About a couple hundred transactions, for about 10B Dust isk and about 80B Eve isk. This lets Dust players who try Eve go straight from their free trial to plexing their Eve account, if they make about 130M Dust isk profit per month. This lets Eve players support their Dust habit without worrying about grinding Dust isk or breaking into PC. The exchange has been an unmitigated success, but I still look forward to CCP building an official exchange and opening up markets in Dust. What would cloaks and CRs cost once people realize that they're OP? What would scout suits cost when everyone and their brother switches to scouts after a patch buffs them? People won't need to argue about whether plasma cannons are under powered, the in ability to sell them for more than they cost to manufacture will be proof enough. A market is a superb mechanism for discerning what a community really values.
Meknow Intaki 149	Posted - 2014.04.28 14:15:00 - [54] - Quote It would let the poor corps have a little fun!! PC really made the playing field in even for a regular joe =ƒÿÉ
Spartacus Dust NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 478	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:18:00 - [55] - Quote Teilka Darkmist wrote: Operative 2511 Dajli wrote: Spartacus Dust wrote: Would this be a problem, maybe in the past it would've, but considering that one alliance owns all the wealth (GOD I FEEL LIKE A 99% HIPPY) I don't see it as a problem now. using a third party to transfer eve isk to dust isk is creative and smart, but impractical for trust issues, ratios, etc... Holy crap YES it would be a problem. In addition to easily making millions in EVE just off of margin trading in Jita; I can also buy and sell PLEX for more fake fun money. We need a new currency for trading funds. Lore wise, New Eden already has another currency. The regular citizens don't use Isk. Isk is used by the various immortals, corporations and governments. If I remember correctly, each empire has it's own currency for every day use, for things like food and clothes and everything else the people who aren't buying ships and starbases need to buy. Something like that would have been ideal for Dust as we're not buying things on the scale of spaceships. Sure our expense are higher than the average citizen, but not that much higher. If you want to bring up the idea of LORE, in EVE, capsuleers make isk, and they can give isk to whoever they want, so it makes no sense according to LORE why EVE players wouldn't be able to give dust players isk especially when dust players regularly spend it in game and make it in game. so you can take the LORE statement and shove it in the invalid statement box. LORE is a huge flaw when it comes to New Eden. It's almost as if the people who wrote the lore never played the game. Twitter @Matthew_Dust Executor of Caps and Mercs Alliance.
Jason Pearson State Terrestrial Mercenaries 4233	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:22:00 - [56] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: CaptainPichardFacePalm.jpg This made my blood boil. PICARD FOOL. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire \\ Bad Mathematician
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 730	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:35:00 - [57] - Quote Doctor Day wrote: 50% of rich foaks are logi's and the other 50% is pc I am neither, just a cheapskate. I like running around in STD gear, at least that is what I tell myself.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Dirt Nap Squad. 1854	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:50:00 - [58] - Quote It's funny. EVE... Because of it's diverse market and economy and the fact, that a big chunk of players purely play EVE or have come to play EVE for the market.. Being in the vocation of Stock Brokers, Bankers, Financial sector workers.. Understand the implications and complex diverse economy EVE has. CCP's like number 2 person, with the most power in the company is; Dr. Eyjolfur Gudmundsson. CCP's lead Economist.. And he has been quoted many times saying something along the lines of.. two economies will never fully merge.. We will merely get drop "In's" such as tanks and vehicles from EVE Capsuleer's.. And possibly have commodity trades with the EVE to DUST side at best. It's best for DUST as well to develop it's own independent economy... EVE will only flood the economy and make so much of DUST meaningless.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2177	Posted - 2014.04.28 19:57:00 - [59] - Quote The potential big benefit to opening up EVE/DUST ISK transfer is actually equalizing the environment of DUST 514 by flooding the market. DNS corps would no longer be the sole source of immense wealth. For instance, I could afford my alliance the ability to get attacking districts significantly more often. So could many other corps and alliances. It breaks a lot of things though, as then everyone will always run proto in matches, except newbies with no ties to alliances and corps. The NPE is the biggest concern here. It solves one problem, only by exacerbating another. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Spartacus Dust NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 478	Posted - 2014.04.28 20:49:00 - [60] - Quote But who wants to do proto's in pubs when they can now actively participate in PC? Launch attack after attack. Twitter @Matthew_Dust Executor of Caps and Mercs Alliance.



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