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Virtual Riot Rebels New Republic INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 266	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:18:00 - [1] - Quote As stated in title. Why do scouts need a free complex dampener with their cloak? This only encourages brick tanking. It doesn't even make sense realistically. A cloak would bend visible light waves, not radar waves or other forms of scanning. That way if a scout wants to dodge scans and eyes, he has to sacrifice a little bit more tank.
Sir Dukey KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 517	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:19:00 - [2] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: As stated in title. Why do scouts need a free complex dampener with their cloak? This only encourages brick tanking. It doesn't even make sense realistically. A cloak would bend visible light waves, not radar waves or other forms of scanning. That way if a scout wants to dodge scans and eyes, he has to sacrifice a little bit more tank. you mad bruuuu??
Vulpes Dolosus Sver true blood General Tso's Alliance 1193	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:21:00 - [3] - Quote Well... from a physics point of view, radar is light so... Me in my ADS: 1,2
ghtyui fdaqq Kinsho Swords Caldari State 1	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:21:00 - [4] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: As stated in title. Why do scouts need a free complex dampener with their cloak? This only encourages brick tanking. It doesn't even make sense realistically. A cloak would bend visible light waves, not radar waves or other forms of scanning. That way if a scout wants to dodge scans and eyes, he has to sacrifice a little bit more tank. As an owner of a new Caldari Scout @ Proto level I would agree, this bonus and the ability to OHK with a shotgun while still cloaked are much in need of revision.
2100 Angels The Southern Legion League of Infamy 334	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:22:00 - [5] - Quote Google wrote: cloak kl+Ö-èk noun noun: cloak; plural noun: cloaks 1. something serving to hide or disguise something. "preparations had taken place under a cloak of secrecy" synonyms:cover, screen, mask, blind, front, camouflage, shield, veneer; seems to me that hiding something isn't limited to the visual spectrum, in fact my first thought was that hiding from radar and vision was exactly what it would do
Virtual Riot Rebels New Republic INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 266	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:23:00 - [6] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Well... from a physics point of view, radar is light so... No..... radar is electromagnetic waves. Light is also electromagnetic waves. But radar is not light -_-" Cloaks don't bend any waves outside the visible light spectrum.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4729	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:27:00 - [7] - Quote Considering how poor a job the cloak does of actually hiding the cloaked player from enemy vision, the profile dampening is really the main benefit of using a cloak, and to be truly effective, that will need to be used in conjunction with dampening.
ghtyui fdaqq Kinsho Swords Caldari State 1	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:27:00 - [8] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Well... from a physics point of view, radar is light so... And only because I am a nerd and not because I think that the way our current tech works should affect my space man game thousands of years in the future; but do we use traditional 'radar' in New Eden/Dust ?
KGB Sleep 948	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:28:00 - [9] - Quote No. Because beer, that's why.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4729	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:29:00 - [10] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: Cloaks don't bend any waves outside the visible light spectrum. Provide a source from DUST which confirms this. EVE doesn't count, its cloak mechanics are different. We aren't the same kind of immortal as a Capsuleer, and while much of our tech is based on the same principles, the details behind certain items are different enough that the cloak could easily have a similar change in functionality when used within atmosphere and a gravity well.

Virtual Riot Rebels New Republic INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 267	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:29:00 - [11] - Quote ghtyui fdaqq wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Well... from a physics point of view, radar is light so... And only because I am a nerd and not because I think that the way our current tech works should affect my space man game thousands of years in the future; but do we use traditional 'radar' in New Eden/Dust ? I don't know but anyone whos in to physics to any extent knows that that guy doe sent know wtf he is talking about. You think if I had a big TV screen showing an image of whatever is directly behind it, it wouldn't show up on radar? haha, bull shart
Virtual Riot Rebels New Republic INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 267	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:34:00 - [12] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Virtual Riot wrote: Cloaks don't bend any waves outside the visible light spectrum. Provide a source from DUST which confirms this. EVE doesn't count, its cloak mechanics are different. We aren't the same kind of immortal as a Capsuleer, and while much of our tech is based on the same principles, the details behind certain items are different enough that the cloak could easily have a similar change in functionality when used within atmosphere and a gravity well. Well obviously I can't say one way or another for sure because this is based in a fictional, highly advanced universe. But if indeed scanning equipment uses some sort of electromagnetic wave to detect things, then the usual counter to this is to coat the target in a material which absorbs electromagnetic waves, instead of refracting them. Not really something you can activate and deactivate on will.
STEALTH HUNTER ZERO D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 259	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:34:00 - [13] - Quote Perhaps the dampening on cloaks should tier, for example base cloak 10% dampening, adv cloak 20% dampening, and complex complex 25% dampening. This would help in sacrificing your fit more for higher dampening percentages.
ghtyui fdaqq Kinsho Swords Caldari State 1	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:34:00 - [14] - Quote Dont bash the topic please. The cloaks are new and awesome and fun, I know mines proto on a Cal.. But we need to be honest about their strengths and weaknesses. This may also incorporate something like Enhancing Assault suit precision a bit eh? Currently they have very high suit scans and thus are blind, unless you have a scout in your squad, like a Caldari with triple precision mods......
Virtual Riot Rebels New Republic INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 267	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:37:00 - [15] - Quote ghtyui fdaqq wrote: Dont bash the topic please. The cloaks are new and awesome and fun, I know mines proto on a Cal.. But we need to be honest about their strengths and weaknesses. This may also incorporate something like Enhancing Assault suit precision a bit eh? Currently they have very high suit scans and thus are blind, unless you have a scout in your squad, like a Caldari with triple precision mods...... They are very fun and I like them a lot, I definitely think they deserve a spot in this game and i'm glad scouts now have a role. I just don't see why they need free dampening along with their cloak.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 860	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:40:00 - [16] - Quote STEALTH HUNTER ZERO wrote: Perhaps the dampening on cloaks should tier, for example base cloak 10% dampening, adv cloak 20% dampening, and complex complex 25% dampening. This would help in sacrificing your fit more for higher dampening percentages. Or link it to the skill (that way the skill gives you a benefit and you have spent some SP to get the effect)
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4729	Posted - 2014.03.31 12:53:00 - [17] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Virtual Riot wrote: Cloaks don't bend any waves outside the visible light spectrum. Provide a source from DUST which confirms this. EVE doesn't count, its cloak mechanics are different. We aren't the same kind of immortal as a Capsuleer, and while much of our tech is based on the same principles, the details behind certain items are different enough that the cloak could easily have a similar change in functionality when used within atmosphere and a gravity well. Well obviously I can't say one way or another for sure because this is based in a fictional, highly advanced universe. But if indeed scanning equipment uses some sort of electromagnetic wave to detect things, then the usual counter to this is to coat the target in a material which absorbs electromagnetic waves, instead of refracting them. Not really something you can activate and deactivate on will. The usual MODERN technique for dealing with electromagnetic sensors is to use a coating which absorbs rather than reflecting (not refracting) MOST OF THE WAVES, not all of them. Another approach is to construct the stealth vehicle with angles that are designed to reflect the majority of the sensor's radiation in directions other than where a sensor is likely to be. Even using BOTH of these approaches, stealth planes are frequently picked up on radar, because while this REDUCES their visibility, it doesn't completely hide them altogether. Even modern stealth technology REDUCES THE PROFILE OF THE STEALTH ITEM. Why would a futuristic powered solution be so different?
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1299	Posted - 2014.03.31 13:07:00 - [18] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: As stated in title. Why do scouts need a free complex dampener with their cloak? This only encourages brick tanking. It doesn't even make sense realistically. A cloak would bend visible light waves, not radar waves or other forms of scanning. That way if a scout wants to dodge scans and eyes, he has to sacrifice a little bit more tank. So a scout with about 310 total EHP, and you wanna see where it goes ?! Let's ask for a Kill Switch for Scouts. You earn a certain amount of WP and then press the Kill Switch... All the Scouts go BOOM!!! Sounds more fair ?!
Virtual Riot Rebels New Republic INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 268	Posted - 2014.03.31 13:11:00 - [19] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Virtual Riot wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Virtual Riot wrote: Cloaks don't bend any waves outside the visible light spectrum. Provide a source from DUST which confirms this. EVE doesn't count, its cloak mechanics are different. We aren't the same kind of immortal as a Capsuleer, and while much of our tech is based on the same principles, the details behind certain items are different enough that the cloak could easily have a similar change in functionality when used within atmosphere and a gravity well. Well obviously I can't say one way or another for sure because this is based in a fictional, highly advanced universe. But if indeed scanning equipment uses some sort of electromagnetic wave to detect things, then the usual counter to this is to coat the target in a material which absorbs electromagnetic waves, instead of refracting them. Not really something you can activate and deactivate on will. The usual MODERN technique for dealing with electromagnetic sensors is to use a coating which absorbs rather than reflecting (not refracting) MOST OF THE WAVES, not all of them. Another approach is to construct the stealth vehicle with angles that are designed to reflect the majority of the sensor's radiation in directions other than where a sensor is likely to be. Even using BOTH of these approaches, stealth planes are frequently picked up on radar, because while this REDUCES their visibility, it doesn't completely hide them altogether. Even modern stealth technology REDUCES THE PROFILE OF THE STEALTH ITEM. Why would a futuristic powered solution be so different? So what, when a scout activates his cloak, he simultaneously coats himself is a more absorptive material, and his suit transforms to construct angles that disperse waves? I'm not gonna argue semantics, my post was really more about balance than arguing how a cloaking device would work in a futuristic civilization. Also re-+fract ri-êfrakt/ verb verb: refract; 3rd person present: refracts; past tense: refracted; past participle: refracted; gerund or present participle: refracting 1. (of water, air, or glass) make (a ray of light) change direction when it enters at an angle. I can use refract if I want to douche
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4732	Posted - 2014.03.31 13:19:00 - [20] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: So what, when a scout activates his cloak, he simultaneously coats himself is a more absorptive material, and his suit transforms to construct angles that disperse waves? I'm not gonna argue semantics, my post was really more about balance than arguing how a cloaking device would work in a futuristic civilization. Also re-+fract ri-êfrakt/ verb verb: refract; 3rd person present: refracts; past tense: refracted; past participle: refracted; gerund or present participle: refracting 1. (of water, air, or glass) make (a ray of light) change direction when it enters at an angle. I can use refract if I want to Edited quote to remove offensive language. Thanks for that. Refraction is where light ( or other electromagnetic wave) ENTERS an object and an angle. Reflection is where it REBOUNDS from the object rather than passing through it. Refract only applies when the light is passing through the object, NOT when it's bouncing off the object. The definition you provided is correct. Your use of the word is still incorrect. Before trying to use facts to prove someone wrong, make sure your facts don't prove them right instead. As for your attempted argument, no that wasn't even remotely relevant to what I said at all. I said that modern stealth technology makes stealthed objects less visible to scanning devices, and asked why a significantly more advanced stealth technology should be expected NOT to do the same thing. I never suggested in any way that the cloak uses the same mechanism as modern stealth to achieve that result. So pretty much my entire response to your post is "lrn2ingrish".

Virtual Riot Rebels New Republic INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 268	Posted - 2014.03.31 13:24:00 - [21] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Virtual Riot wrote: So what, when a scout activates his cloak, he simultaneously coats himself is a more absorptive material, and his suit transforms to construct angles that disperse waves? I'm not gonna argue semantics, my post was really more about balance than arguing how a cloaking device would work in a futuristic civilization. Also re-+fract ri-êfrakt/ verb verb: refract; 3rd person present: refracts; past tense: refracted; past participle: refracted; gerund or present participle: refracting 1. (of water, air, or glass) make (a ray of light) change direction when it enters at an angle. I can use refract if I want to Edited quote to remove offensive language. Thanks for that. Refraction is where light ( or other electromagnetic wave) ENTERS an object and an angle. Reflection is where it REBOUNDS from the object rather than passing through it. Refract only applies when the light is passing through the object, NOT when it's bouncing off the object. The definition you provided is correct. Your use of the word is still incorrect. Before trying to use facts to prove someone wrong, make sure your facts don't prove them right instead. As for your attempted argument, no that wasn't even remotely relevant to what I said at all. I said that modern stealth technology makes stealthed objects less visible to scanning devices, and asked why a significantly more advanced stealth technology should be expected NOT to do the same thing. I never suggested in any way that the cloak uses the same mechanism as modern stealth to achieve that result. So pretty much my entire response to your post is "lrn2ingrish". I used refract incorrectly. I apologize. Yes modern technology does makes things less visible to scanning devices. But here we are talking about a device, which upon activation, both bends light waves around itself, and makes it less visible to scanning. But only upon activation. If you expect technology in the future to work in a similar fashion as it does today, this seems highly unlikely.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4734	Posted - 2014.03.31 13:32:00 - [22] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: Yes modern technology does makes things less visible to scanning devices. But here we are talking about a device, which upon activation, both bends light waves around itself, and makes it less visible to scanning. But only upon activation. If you expect technology in the future to work in a similar fashion as it does today, this seems highly unlikely. If you expect technolog in the future to work in a similar fashion to how it does today, then you expect scanners to rely primarily on electromagnetic radiation. Light is a form of electromagnetic radiation. A device designed to primarily distort light around an object to conceal it should reasonably be expected to have a similar (though lesser) effect on other forms of electromagnetic radiation. Hence why it reduces your scan profile by such a small amount while reducing your visibility significantly more (but still not rendering you properly invisible)
Pr0phetzReck0ning KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND Lokun Listamenn 167	Posted - 2014.03.31 13:34:00 - [23] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Virtual Riot wrote: Cloaks don't bend any waves outside the visible light spectrum. Provide a source from DUST which confirms this. EVE doesn't count, its cloak mechanics are different. We aren't the same kind of immortal as a Capsuleer, and while much of our tech is based on the same principles, the details behind certain items are different enough that the cloak could easily have a similar change in functionality when used within atmosphere and a gravity well. Well obviously I can't say one way or another for sure because this is based in a fictional, highly advanced universe. But if indeed scanning equipment uses some sort of electromagnetic wave to detect things, then the usual counter to this is to coat the target in a material which absorbs electromagnetic waves, instead of refracting them. Not really something you can activate and deactivate on will. Your argument keeps getting more invalid the more you keep typing.... please go on :-)
Virtual Riot Rebels New Republic INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 268	Posted - 2014.03.31 13:36:00 - [24] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Virtual Riot wrote: Yes modern technology does makes things less visible to scanning devices. But here we are talking about a device, which upon activation, both bends light waves around itself, and makes it less visible to scanning. But only upon activation. If you expect technology in the future to work in a similar fashion as it does today, this seems highly unlikely. If you expect technolog in the future to work in a similar fashion to how it does today, then you expect scanners to rely primarily on electromagnetic radiation. Light is a form of electromagnetic radiation. A device designed to primarily distort light around an object to conceal it should reasonably be expected to have a similar (though lesser) effect on other forms of electromagnetic radiation. Hence why it reduces your scan profile by such a small amount while reducing your visibility significantly more (but still not rendering you properly invisible) I see your point, and it is a valid one. But only if it is indeed based off bending the waves, and not some form of invisibility. Like a million tiny screens that project whatever is behind them from a million tiny cameras.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4734	Posted - 2014.03.31 13:43:00 - [25] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: I see your point, and it is a valid one. But only if it is indeed based off bending the waves, and not some form of invisibility. Like a million tiny screens that project whatever is behind them from a million tiny cameras. Yes, because ultra-advanced cameras must, by definition, be incapable of picking up any wavelength of electromagnetic radiation that operates outside the visible spectrum, and similarly, an extremely advanced videoscreen wouldn't be capable of projecting those wavelengths in addition to the visible light. Yeah, pretty sure we can rationalise that version of cloaking to work just as well as any other.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 646	Posted - 2014.03.31 17:24:00 - [26] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Virtual Riot wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Virtual Riot wrote: Cloaks don't bend any waves outside the visible light spectrum. Provide a source from DUST which confirms this. EVE doesn't count, its cloak mechanics are different. We aren't the same kind of immortal as a Capsuleer, and while much of our tech is based on the same principles, the details behind certain items are different enough that the cloak could easily have a similar change in functionality when used within atmosphere and a gravity well. Well obviously I can't say one way or another for sure because this is based in a fictional, highly advanced universe. But if indeed scanning equipment uses some sort of electromagnetic wave to detect things, then the usual counter to this is to coat the target in a material which absorbs electromagnetic waves, instead of refracting them. Not really something you can activate and deactivate on will. The usual MODERN technique for dealing with electromagnetic sensors is to use a coating which absorbs rather than reflecting (not refracting) MOST OF THE WAVES, not all of them. Another approach is to construct the stealth vehicle with angles that are designed to reflect the majority of the sensor's radiation in directions other than where a sensor is likely to be. Even using BOTH of these approaches, stealth planes are frequently picked up on radar, because while this REDUCES their visibility, it doesn't completely hide them altogether. Even modern stealth technology REDUCES THE PROFILE OF THE STEALTH ITEM. Why would a futuristic powered solution be so different? Real life analogies do not belong anywhere near a game unless it is a simulation. Dust is not a simulator. Also, I agree with the OP, the cloak has only advantages to fitting it, no draw-backs. It needs a draw-back, not just less advantages. Fixing swarms
neausea 1987 R 0 N 1 N 96	Posted - 2014.03.31 17:31:00 - [27] - Quote caution nerd alert (then why are you reading this) because im also interested in science this is all I have a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ.... GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ .... (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ ......... Gö+GöüGö+ n+¦pâ+(`-ö´)n+ën+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ i need more QQ tears MORE!!
LudiKure ninda DROID EXILES General Tso's Alliance 78	Posted - 2014.03.31 17:42:00 - [28] - Quote NO!! Solo player.. SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED!
Zimander 34	Posted - 2014.03.31 17:44:00 - [29] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: As stated in title. Why do scouts need a free complex dampener with their cloak? This only encourages brick tanking. It doesn't even make sense realistically. A cloak would bend visible light waves, not radar waves or other forms of scanning. That way if a scout wants to dodge scans and eyes, he has to sacrifice a little bit more tank. LoL U mad or u just gat way to many times killed by scout
Virtual Riot Rebels New Republic INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 279	Posted - 2014.03.31 18:17:00 - [30] - Quote I'm not mad, I just don't like how scouts don't even have to fit good damps to dodge my proto gal logi scans unless I use a focused. What is the point in being a scanning specialist when it doesn't even work half the time Sure, I can run 4 focused scanners. Thats only 120k worth of equipment right there, and gimps my ability to detect things other than scouts. Idk brah, I just don't think the cloak should come with a free damp. I think removing that bonus from the cloak would force scouts to fit damps if they want to dodge scans, which is turn would result in less brick tanking. Scouts still get to be sneaky, but if they wanna be extra sneaky they should have to pay for it. Pick one Extra sneaky or Extra tanky I don't think that they should get both.

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10204	Posted - 2014.03.31 18:26:00 - [31] - Quote I for the most part don't think cloaks are a problem, but I really don't think the dampening bonus is needed. You do have a point about it encouraging brick-tanking. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Broonfondle Majikthies Dogs of War Gaming Zero-Day 1066	Posted - 2014.03.31 18:53:00 - [32] - Quote As a min scout I need the damps associate with the cloak to facilitate my role. Or else a Caldari scout will just own me all the time. With it I at least have the option to free up a low slot from dampeners for something more practical like range enhancers / codebreakers. Its not even particularly effective as a dampener as we can't keep it running all the time. Essentially either way I'm boned but at least the extra damps give me an outside chance "...where Bylothgar the Ill-postured was made King of the People With No Name But Decent Footwear"
Ivan Avogadro Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 958	Posted - 2014.03.31 18:58:00 - [33] - Quote Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: As a min scout I need the damps associate with the cloak to facilitate my role. Or else a Caldari scout will just own me all the time. With it I at least have the option to free up a low slot from dampeners for something more practical like range enhancers / codebreakers. Its not even particularly effective as a dampener as we can't keep it running all the time. Essentially either way I'm boned but at least the extra damps give me an outside chance This is true. I have a cal scout and I ping min scouts all the time on my radar. They need to run 2x complex dampeners to evade me, or 1 and a cloak. I can tell which ones have no dampeners at all, because their chevron appears over a big old invisible nothing. Also, the added dampening helps sell the cloak to other roles. It's possible to put a cloak on an assault, but without any extra dampening every assault and logi on the other team would see his reddot and chevron anyway. Hail Bacon
Vesperz D3ATH CARD 63	Posted - 2014.03.31 19:16:00 - [34] - Quote Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: As a min scout I need the damps associate with the cloak to facilitate my role. Or else a Caldari scout will just own me all the time. With it I at least have the option to free up a low slot from dampeners for something more practical like range enhancers / codebreakers. Its not even particularly effective as a dampener as we can't keep it running all the time. Essentially either way I'm boned but at least the extra damps give me an outside chance Exactly, in order to compete with my minmatar scout I need to also run one or two complex dampners and a cloak just to get away from / or the drop on a Caldari scout or I'm dead. ... I've already died enough times to those bastards before hand. Lmao. Live by honor, kill by stealth.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 3982	Posted - 2014.03.31 19:19:00 - [35] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: As stated in title. Why do scouts need a free complex dampener with their cloak? This only encourages brick tanking. It doesn't even make sense realistically. A cloak would bend visible light waves, not radar waves or other forms of scanning. That way if a scout wants to dodge scans and eyes, he has to sacrifice a little bit more tank. No other scout has this problem other than the Gal Scout. It gets a free complex damp built in AND another in the cloak. Hence why they can brick tank and avoid a majority of scanners at the same time. My Min Scout? I don't even have the low slots to brick tank. They all go to damping, hacking, and speed. I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1303	Posted - 2014.03.31 19:20:00 - [36] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: I'm not mad, I just don't like how scouts don't even have to fit good damps to dodge my proto gal logi scans unless I use a focused. What is the point in being a scanning specialist when it doesn't even work half the time Sure, I can run 4 focused scanners. Thats only 120k worth of equipment right there, and gimps my ability to detect things other than scouts. Idk brah, I just don't think the cloak should come with a free damp. I think removing that bonus from the cloak would force scouts to fit damps if they want to dodge scans, which is turn would result in less brick tanking. Scouts still get to be sneaky, but if they wanna be extra sneaky they should have to pay for it. Pick one Extra sneaky or Extra tanky I don't think that they should get both. My scout fitting is close to 180k... You wanna scan and find me with a 30k suit ?!
Zirzo Valcyn Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 364	Posted - 2014.03.31 19:21:00 - [37] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: As stated in title. Why do scouts need a free complex dampener with their cloak? This only encourages brick tanking. It doesn't even make sense realistically. A cloak would bend visible light waves, not radar waves or other forms of scanning. That way if a scout wants to dodge scans and eyes, he has to sacrifice a little bit more tank. light is a frequency so radar could also be deflected besides, the Philadelphia Experiment achieved both visual and radar invisibility http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Experiment u can ban the troll out of the forums but u can't ban the forums out of the troll. forum warrior .189
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7743	Posted - 2014.03.31 19:26:00 - [38] - Quote Just so you know, here on earth, we now have cloaking technology that enables objects to bend radio waves around them rather than absorb or deflect them away from their source. This is not like traditional stealth you know already like the B-2 bomber and F-117 Nighthawk. We also have cloak technology that bends light in the same fashion. All that's left now is to figure out how to merge those two techs together. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7743	Posted - 2014.03.31 19:29:00 - [39] - Quote Zirzo Valcyn wrote: Virtual Riot wrote: As stated in title. Why do scouts need a free complex dampener with their cloak? This only encourages brick tanking. It doesn't even make sense realistically. A cloak would bend visible light waves, not radar waves or other forms of scanning. That way if a scout wants to dodge scans and eyes, he has to sacrifice a little bit more tank. light is a frequency so radar could also be deflected besides, the Philadelphia Experiment achieved both visual and radar invisibility http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Experiment I don't think that source of information counts. The technology on earth i'm describing is something that is worked on in universities around the world. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Temias Mercurial ANGEL FLEET 42	Posted - 2014.03.31 19:31:00 - [40] - Quote The cloak may be made up of several different systems and is merely dubbed "the cloak" to summarize these components. A battleship is composed of a crew, ship, weapons, ammunition, and etc. It wouldn't be difficult to say that the cloak is composed of a visual cloak, resistance to radar, has reduced effectiveness when moving, and etc.

Zirzo Valcyn Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 365	Posted - 2014.03.31 19:32:00 - [41] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Just so you know, here on earth, we now have cloaking technology that enables objects to bend radio waves around them rather than absorb or deflect them away from their source. This is not like traditional stealth you know already like the B-2 bomber and F-117 Nighthawk. We also have cloak technology that bends light in the same fashion. All that's left now is to figure out how to merge those two techs together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itmn_1AsG10 u can ban the troll out of the forums but u can't ban the forums out of the troll. forum warrior .189
Mike Ox Bigger Skill Shots 194	Posted - 2014.03.31 19:32:00 - [42] - Quote I am proto gallente logi with proto scans and I am also a proto caldari scout with all passive scanning at 5. I completely support taking away the built in complex dampener as it does promote brick tanking. A scout needs no effort what so ever to dodge a scanner. They have no need to skill into the dampening tree except to hide from other scouts. Taking away the dampener would at least force scouts to run one dampener to dodge scanners. Being almost invisible is enough, I play both sides so I'm being 100% impartial.
bamboo x Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 555	Posted - 2014.03.31 19:34:00 - [43] - Quote OP you are an idiot. This is the only way for non-Gal scouts to be unscannable. -1 B.D. Wong AKA Dr. Wu returns to Jurassic Park sequel
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution 3982	Posted - 2014.03.31 19:39:00 - [44] - Quote bamboo x wrote: OP you are an idiot. This is the only way for non-Gal scouts to be unscannable. -1 -1 for you Non-Gal scouts aren't SUPPOSED to be unscannable without gimping their fit. They are just supposed to be very difficult to detect. The real debate is whether their ability to be undetectable without gimping their fit is OP or not. I just know that they are VERY strong this build. I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
Centurion mkII Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 209	Posted - 2014.03.31 19:44:00 - [45] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Well... from a physics point of view, radar is light so... No..... radar is electromagnetic waves. Light is also electromagnetic waves. But radar is not light -_-" Cloaks don't bend any waves outside the visible light spectrum. I would argue thats not true seeing as we are harder to find with it active. >:)
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui The Containment Unit 469	Posted - 2014.03.31 19:46:00 - [46] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Just so you know, here on earth, we now have cloaking technology that enables objects to bend radio waves around them rather than absorb or deflect them away from their source. This is not like traditional stealth you know already like the B-2 bomber and F-117 Nighthawk. We also have cloak technology that bends light in the same fashion. All that's left now is to figure out how to merge those two techs together. They already know how to do this . It's just a matter of not letting the information out so others can copy it and an even bigger arms race ensues . Hell they have " warp drives " and time machines . Think they don't then your in for a surprise in twenty years . They might never admit the time machine part though . Leave all negative comments about tanks in the bin marked " TRASH " and we'll get to it as soon as possible . Thank You
RKKR The Southern Legion League of Infamy 865	Posted - 2014.03.31 20:02:00 - [47] - Quote We also have technology that can detect waves radiated by an object. Ooops. We also have brains to realize that having 2 items for 2 different slots for dampening that also happen to increase dampening more effectively than the 1 item that increases precision is unbalanced in a GAME.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4754	Posted - 2014.04.01 04:12:00 - [48] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Real life analogies do not belong anywhere near a game unless it is a simulation. Dust is not a simulator. Also, I agree with the OP, the cloak has only advantages to fitting it, no draw-backs. It needs a draw-back, not just less advantages. Real life analogies have PLENTY of place in a discussion about the technological background of a device and the lore describing how it works. That's what was being discussed when bringing real life analogies into the mix, so it was relevant to use it. As for the balance thing, what's the drawback for fitting a Nanohive? How about a Repair Tool? Is there a negative to balance out Active Scanners? The balance in all these cases - THE SAME DRAWBACK WITH THE CLOAK - is that you can't have the equipment out and active while ALSO having your weapon drawn. The other balance is the fitting capacity on your Dropsuit. And yeah, maybe - MAYBE - a couple of the Scout suits have more PG and CPU at each tier than they really should have. Maybe it's a little too easy to stack Prototype modules and a cloak on just the Advanced suits in some cases. Oooh, I know! Maybe because cloaking is so powerful, they should add the drawback that when you're moving, you have a blue shimmery effect so people can see you! And just in case people still have trouble, there should be at least a faint shimmer when you're staying still. But if that's not enough, how about they also make sure an enemy's crosshairs still turn red when they're on target. ...wait a minute... this sounds familiar somehow... Pretty sure the cloak is fine with the drawbacks it already has. RKKR wrote: We also have brains to realize that having 2 items for 2 different slots for dampening that also happen to increase dampening more effectively than the 1 item that increases precision is unbalanced in a GAME. Which one item is it that you're thinking of which can help detect dampened enemies? I count 3. Also, for DUST, a cloaked and dampened Scout SHOULD be invisible to scanners while the cloak is active - it has a time limit, remember? Combine the timer with the fact that YOU CAN SEE THEM and the fact that YOUR CROSSHAIRS TURN RED IN CASE YOU'RE HALF BLIND, and there are plenty of hard counters right there provided for EVERYONE WHO PLAYS THE GAME. And that's before considering that if you want to dampen enough to be hidden from passive and active scanning, you need to be sacrificing the tankiness which is what people mostly complain about when it comes to cloaking. Cloak dampening doesn't hide Scouts well enough on its own to negate a good scanning build, so if you're fighting a brick-tanked Scout, a good Scout who isn't brick-tanked will see them coming from any direction, while everyone else can still see them, but only from in front.
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion League of Infamy 368	Posted - 2014.04.01 04:38:00 - [49] - Quote Stop trying to physics guys. You're just going to hurt yourselves. I agree with the OP. At least reduce the bonus significantly with a progression to a higher values with the better cloaks.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10214	Posted - 2014.04.01 15:16:00 - [50] - Quote The physics thing has become a distraction away from the main point. Cloaks don't need the profile reduction, it encourages scouts not to fit their own dampeners, and brick-tank instead. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+

Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 2735	Posted - 2014.04.01 15:19:00 - [51] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: As stated in title. Why do scouts need a free complex dampener with their cloak? This only encourages brick tanking. It doesn't even make sense realistically. A cloak would bend visible light waves, not radar waves or other forms of scanning. That way if a scout wants to dodge scans and eyes, he has to sacrifice a little bit more tank. Makes sense..... +1 weRideNDie2getha since 2010 (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 2735	Posted - 2014.04.01 15:20:00 - [52] - Quote bamboo x wrote: OP you are an idiot. This is the only way for non-Gal scouts to be unscannable. -1 should be careful when you call someone else an idiot when you make statements like this. weRideNDie2getha since 2010 (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts)
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game 1006	Posted - 2014.04.01 15:37:00 - [53] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: As stated in title. Why do scouts need a free complex dampener with their cloak? This only encourages brick tanking. It doesn't even make sense realistically. A cloak would bend visible light waves, not radar waves or other forms of scanning. That way if a scout wants to dodge scans and eyes, he has to sacrifice a little bit more tank. Regardless of damps/cloak there is only one scout that can avoid a good scanner by Gallogi If a scout is trying to dampen they lose that tank you mention, along with still being scanned by Proto scanners .... QQ Look Closer the next time a Cloaker attacks you 'D1CK by name' 'D1CK by nature'
Odigos Ellinas Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 35	Posted - 2014.04.02 03:31:00 - [54] - Quote Scouts are supposed to infiltrators and assassins that means difficult to be detected. Thats why they have bonuses in using the cloak and a low DB profile. There are some glitches and bugs with the cloak that work as an advantage for scouts (or anyone using the cloak). Glitches and bugs need to be fixed of course. The major problem with scouts at the moment is they have to much CPU/PG. a light frame dropsuite like the scout should not be possible yo have the same shield/armor HP like a medium frame dropsuite without sacrificing the tier of the weapon/equipment/sidearm/cloak.
Mike Ox Bigger Skill Shots 212	Posted - 2014.04.02 03:36:00 - [55] - Quote Odigos Ellinas wrote: Scouts are supposed to infiltrators and assassins that means difficult to be detected. Thats why they have bonuses in using the cloak and a low DB profile. There are some glitches and bugs with the cloak that work as an advantage for scouts (or anyone using the cloak). Glitches and bugs need to be fixed of course. The major problem with scouts at the moment is they have to much CPU/PG. a light frame dropsuite like the scout should not be possible yo have the same shield/armor HP like a medium frame dropsuite without sacrificing the tier of the weapon/equipment/sidearm/cloak. Those guys that stack armor and shield get ripped apart by real scouts. If you are not a scout and can't counter them yourself. You should look to squad up with a real scout who can easily detect them. It's about time the scout actually has a place on the battlefield. I remember people x-ing up for PC back in the day and they'd put they were in a proto scout suit, people be like, "You don't have any other suit?" lmao.
LittleCuteBunny 388	Posted - 2014.04.02 03:37:00 - [56] - Quote Removing the bonus mainly affects minmatar, amarr and caldari scout. the Gallente Scout doesn't really needs the dampening since they can easily add another dampener and remain un detectable. Recruiter Link Retired.
X7 lion SWAMPERIUM 139	Posted - 2014.04.02 03:45:00 - [57] - Quote can hide from proto scans regardless & dose not care Immortality will not protect you from me. I am death incarnate, you will die.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 2150	Posted - 2014.04.02 06:34:00 - [58] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Well... from a physics point of view, radar is light so... No..... radar is electromagnetic waves. Light is also electromagnetic waves. But radar is not light -_-" Cloaks don't bend any waves outside the visible light spectrum. Says who? Given that they do, in fact, include a dampening bonus, I'd say that they cloak more than just the visible wavelengths.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 2150	Posted - 2014.04.02 06:35:00 - [59] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The physics thing has become a distraction away from the main point. Cloaks don't need the profile reduction, it encourages scouts not to fit their own dampeners, and brick-tank instead. So what? Who declared that brick tanking is bad, or only for specific suits?
Alena Ventrallis PAND3M0N1UM Lokun Listamenn 1100	Posted - 2014.04.02 07:44:00 - [60] - Quote I'm for it. Best PVE idea I've seen. Fixed link.

Sardonk Eternia RisingSuns 199	Posted - 2014.04.02 07:44:00 - [61] - Quote ghtyui fdaqq wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Well... from a physics point of view, radar is light so... And only because I am a nerd and not because I think that the way our current tech works should affect my space man game thousands of years in the future; but do we use traditional 'radar' in New Eden/Dust ? In EVE each race uses one of four types of sensor. There is ECM for each type and ECCM too https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Electronic_warfare_guide
SgtMajSquish MLBJ Consolidated Dust 57	Posted - 2014.04.02 07:45:00 - [62] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Well... from a physics point of view, radar is light so... Scanning in this game is sound based. This is where the cloak has an unexplained boost Favoring High Latency Is Sh*t
SgtMajSquish MLBJ Consolidated Dust 57	Posted - 2014.04.02 07:50:00 - [63] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: RKKR wrote: . There is no drawback at the moment. You can switch to your weapon and fire before the cloak even turns off. Favoring High Latency Is Sh*t
Jathniel G I A N T General Tso's Alliance 1017	Posted - 2014.04.02 12:54:00 - [64] - Quote No. Learn to invest in precision enhancement or proto-scanners. You can't have it all. People complaining about the cloaked shotguns, aren't being honest. You just dont like getting caught with your pants down. You can see the scouts coming from a mile away. HTFU and pay attention. This is getting as old as people saying, "its not fair that heavies have so much HP".
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4800	Posted - 2014.04.02 13:49:00 - [65] - Quote SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: what's the drawback for fitting a Nanohive? How about a Repair Tool? Is there a negative to balance out Active Scanners? The balance in all these cases - THE SAME DRAWBACK WITH THE CLOAK - is that you can't have the equipment out and active while ALSO having your weapon drawn. The other balance is the fitting capacity on your Dropsuit. And yeah, maybe - MAYBE - a couple of the Scout suits have more PG and CPU at each tier than they really should have. Maybe it's a little too easy to stack Prototype modules and a cloak on just the Advanced suits in some cases. Oooh, I know! Maybe because cloaking is so powerful, they should add the drawback that when you're moving, you have a blue shimmery effect so people can see you! And just in case people still have trouble, there should be at least a faint shimmer when you're staying still. But if that's not enough, how about they also make sure an enemy's crosshairs still turn red when they're on target. ...wait a minute... this sounds familiar somehow... There is no drawback at the moment. You can switch to your weapon and fire before the cloak even turns off. I just reinserted the relevant portion of my post, since you didn't actually include any of its content. With that back in there, I'm sorry, but your comment seems like it's not really addressing any of the points I made. You can switch to your weapon - triggering an immediate decloak sound (which to be fair, I agree with turning the volume up for) and an immediate decloak animation. The animation takes long enough that you're still harder to see than normal for long enough to get a couple of shots off, but you're more visible than you would be while remaining actually cloaked. The immediate sound trigger, which comes BEFORE you finish swapping the cloak out, is a giveaway that there's a cloaked enemy nearby. If it was a little louder and more obvious, then it would be a good indicator that it's time to start looking for that (now more obvious because they're decloaking) blue shimmer and opening fire. Not seeing how "you can't activate cloak with your weapon out" and "you can't keep cloak active after pulling your weapon out" are less of a drawback than the "you have to swap away from your weapon to place it" drawback on REs, Nanohives and Uplinks or the "you can't use it while also having a weapon ready" drawback on Active Scanners and Repair Tools. Also not seeing how you can argue that glowing bright blue isn't a drawback for an item you're meant to be using for invisibility.


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