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Funkmaster Whale
0uter.Heaven
1656
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Posted - 2014.03.30 22:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Let's face it, Assault suits are now overshadowed in just about every way compared to a Scout suit. You lose out on a marginal amount of HP but get about a dozen modules worth of bonuses in other departments (scan profile/precision/range, shield regen, shield regen delays, movement speed, stamina, hack speed, extra equipment, more CPU/PG). Everyone's been hung up on how amazing the new cloaks / light frames / heavy frames are that Assaults kinda just got left in the dirt.
Are there any talks to buff Assaults to give them more definitive roles? The current suit stats and bonuses are so lackluster that there's hardly any incentive to spec into Assaults.
Take for example the suit bonuses. There's a distinct discrepancy in the way CCP decided to choose Assault bonuses versus Scouts and Heavies. Scouts and Heavies have racial bonuses that do not require them to make use of any weapon/module/equipment to take advantage of the bonus (barring the Cloak which effectively defines the Scout role anywho). Assaults / Logis on the other hand are pinholed into using their racial weaponry if they want to take advantage of their already meager bonuses. What happened to suit customization? I like shield tanking as a Caldari but I also don't really like the Rail Rifle. My bonus is thus useless and serves no purpose.
This isn't fair. EIther give Scouts and Heavies similar module/weapon specific bonuses or vice versa. I'm sure Scouts wouldn't appreciate if their bonuses were changed to, for example, "+5% efficacy to profile dampeners and range enhancers per level" on a Gallente Scout or "+5% efficacy to cardiac regulators" on the Amarr Scout. Doesn't sound very fun, does it? It forces the Scouts to use certain modules that they may not want to use. Why are Assaults / Logis then given this treatment?
Please. Will someone either from the CPM or CCP please give us some hope?
Let me play you the song of my people!
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1320
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Posted - 2014.03.30 23:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
I fear that many of the choices that CCP makes are reactionary measures based on the community and dont really sit down to think about the true roles of each suit class and trying to give them a definitive role on the battlefield. I think some of the changes are in the right direction but either not effective enough or too restrictive.
First thing to look at is what is each role supposed to accomplish.
Heavy - point defense. They are tanks who are supposed to take a lot of damage and discourage unorganized frontal assaults. Thus, their bonuses of resistances are probably the best thought out in the game. I think that the HMG is a little bit too good of a killer at times but not horribly so. Its in a good spot right now.
Scouts - flankers. They are glass cannons who are made to help flank the enemy and harass them behind front lines. Their bonuses are fine in terms of profile and precision. The only issue comes with their ability to brick tank and still retain their speed. I think that they should possibly have more of a de-buffer if they choose to brick where plates might have a greater effect on their speed and shields have more of an effect on their profile.
Logis - support. I like the role bonus of reduction to equipment costs. The racial bonuses are way too restrictive however and give little reason to carrying a diverse equipment loadout. It tends to make equipment almost useless if not part of your bonus. I think that all logis should have some sort of base effectiveness for equipment but that certain races get a little more than others. IE - if you are a Min Logi, you get a 100% bonus to Min equipment, a 75% bonus to Gal (allies), and a 50% bonus to Cal and Amarr. This helps so that you have a reason to be one logi versus another but your equipment isnt completely gimped.
Assaults - frontline. An assaults job is pure fighting. They honestly have the worst thought out bonus of all. They are meant to have a decent amount of tank and deal very good damage. They are the grunts of the game. I think that the origional proposal of having an efficacy to damage mods gives them a focused role and reason to choose them over a scout or logi. If they had a 10% bonus for each level, that means that it would give a 50% bonus to complex damage mods, or a 7.5% bonus overall. This makes them more effective as killers without being game-breakingly so. They need something because they are bad with equipment and have issues being too stealthy.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
1812
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Posted - 2014.03.31 21:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Canari, your statement with regards to roles is dead on. You see the same in their vehicle balancing efforts as well. They haven't even sat down to consider what the role of tanks are meant to be on the battlefield. The same is very much the same with assault suits in this case. Whereas heavies win on health, and light suits win on speed, assault suits should indeed highlight damage as their strong stat.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1835
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Posted - 2014.04.02 08:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
While I typically prefer the idea of linking racial weapons/equipment to that's race's suit, I also completely understand your frustration with a seemingly asymmetrical approach between suit types. I think this is largely a failure of how skill tags are applied and it has been a major issue of mine for a very long time.
How would you feel is the race of the suit modified each weapon in a way unique to that race? For example Gallente Assaults would reduce recoil for all Light/Sidearm weapons? It would open up options buts remain true to the theme of the race.
Or would you prefer the suits modify passive bonuses such as sprint speed, stamina recharge, ect?
Just throwing ideas out there, I'd like to hear your input.
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
852
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Posted - 2014.04.02 10:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Agreed on the Assaults needing a role...logis are completely fine though please don't roll them into the same argument.
I think we need to decide do we want passive bonuses or active bonuses on the suits. There is a mixture of both on all except the Sentinel who has pure passive bonuses. The Assault passive bonus is just too limited, better fitting of the commando. The scout bonus to the cloak is active, the exact same as the logi bonus to racial equipment or assault/commando weapons, they all pigeon hole the suits.
People need to stop worrying only about the suit bonus on the logi. Sure you only get a bonus to racial equipment, but you don't only have to run that. You are as effective as any other role with the other equipment, and at cheaper fittings. Scouts don't fit 2 cloaks to only take advantage of their bonus nor do commandos only run 2 racial light weapons for the damage bonus.
Assault is in some dire need in getting a role not the logi. Assault could do with the best shield regen and delays (except depleted delay..better served on the scout.) Maybe the most stamina (not stamina regen). Switch the commando damage bonus with assault weapon bonus and give the Assault a slight CPU/PG buff.
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad.
3384
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Posted - 2014.04.02 10:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Amarr assault has a role.
The others... lol |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2845
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Posted - 2014.04.02 15:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
The role of the Assault suit should be DPS.
They should have a bonus to support that. Ether a Damage mod bonus as Canari Elphus suggested or just a strait up damage buff. Maybe just a strait class bonus of +3% damage (3% flat for any assault suit, not 3% per level). This would be balanced because they are easier to hit than Scouts, and have less health than Heavies. I suggest adding this on top of the bonuses they already have.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
1366
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Posted - 2014.04.02 16:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:The role of the Assault suit should be DPS.
They should have a bonus to support that. Ether a Damage mod bonus as Canari Elphus suggested or just a strait up damage buff. Maybe just a strait class bonus of +3% damage (3% flat for any assault suit, not 3% per level). This would be balanced because they are easier to hit than Scouts, and have less health than Heavies. I suggest adding this on top of the bonuses they already have.
+1% damage per level of [racial dropsuit] with [racial weapon system]? That way it scales with level.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
12002
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Posted - 2014.04.03 09:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:3% flat for any assault suit, not 3% per level 3% is a laughable difference that wouldn't come anywhere close to encouraging me to switch out of my assault scout.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Funkmaster Whale
Ancient Exiles.
1701
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Posted - 2014.04.03 09:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:3% flat for any assault suit, not 3% per level 3% is a laughable difference that wouldn't come anywhere close to encouraging me to switch out of my assault scout. You know honestly, now that I've been playing around with a speedy cloaked Scout (pseudo Assault) I wouldn't even bother switching to Assault even if they gave some bogus stat bonuses like damage % or better shield recharge. There would really have to be something that would make the Assault suit shine over a Scout.
The speed, stamina, scan skills, and cloak are so extremely useful and there's not really any disadvantage over my Assault. I lose like a meager amount of HP but gain so much more. At this rate, nothing in 1.8 (hotfixes included) is really going to fix Assault suits, so there's no reason to even bother speccing them until they give them a meaningful fix in 1.9. There would have to be a complete revision of suit slots, CPU/PG, suit bonuses, and possibly introducing some sort of Assault-only equipment like they did with the Scout.
I don't care what people say, the cloak is just too damn good right now to pass up for some extra shield/armor or whatever crap bonuses the Assault has. 25% dispersion or 25% more ammo in the CR clip isn't gonna save you when I sneak up behind you and kill you before you have time to even react. That's what the game has come down to now.
Let me play you the song of my people!
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad.
8228
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Posted - 2014.04.10 21:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
I've been writing up about an assault buff.
Short version: Better EWAR, more stamina, stamina regen, extra 70hp on all suits, extra slot, extra 0.1m/s on all suits, and have yet to decide on bonuses.
My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone.
If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up.
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
878
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Posted - 2014.04.11 02:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Quick question to the group...
How do you square the role of the assault and the role of the Commando?
Many posts in the thread indicate that some better overall stats and a DPS related bonus of some type are the way to go. Not disagreeing with you, my question is how you balance with the Commando suit and it's role and perks?
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1409
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Posted - 2014.04.11 04:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Quick question to the group...
How do you square the role of the assault and the role of the Commando?
Many posts in the thread indicate that some better overall stats and a DPS related bonus of some type are the way to go. Not disagreeing with you, my question is how you balance with the Commando suit and it's role and perks?
I like the Commando where its at. The fact that it might share some bonuses with the assault does not diminish either's role as their other attributes does that for them. The Commando is the swiss army knife of the battlefield while the assault is a much more focused role. As a front line fighter it needs to have some tank, some speed and good dps. The Commando's role is to provide some variability to the squad should situations change. It is the stopgap to a possible weakness.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Killar-12
OLDSPICE. Top Men.
2572
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Posted - 2014.04.11 04:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
Switch Commando and Assault Bonuses or mix them with both roles getting both...
How to Leave PC
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
878
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Posted - 2014.04.11 06:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
Canari Elphus wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Quick question to the group...
How do you square the role of the assault and the role of the Commando?
Many posts in the thread indicate that some better overall stats and a DPS related bonus of some type are the way to go. Not disagreeing with you, my question is how you balance with the Commando suit and it's role and perks? I like the Commando where its at. The fact that it might share some bonuses with the assault does not diminish either's role as their other attributes does that for them. The Commando is the swiss army knife of the battlefield while the assault is a much more focused role. As a front line fighter it needs to have some tank, some speed and good dps. The Commando's role is to provide some variability to the squad should situations change. It is the stopgap to a possible weakness.
Interesting interpretation, Canari.
I would have viewed the Assault as more of the "swiss army knife" with the slot combos and options. The ugly think is the frame suits should probably be the "adaptable" suit more than any of them.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
878
|
Posted - 2014.04.11 07:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
Killar-12 wrote:Switch Commando and Assault Bonuses or mix them with both roles getting both...
That might be legit.
If you gave the CDO the light weapon cpu/pg reduction and added a racial weapon perk, and perhaps an extra high, low , or equipment slot and I think you are on to it. Then Assaults get reload and racial damage bonus....very fitting.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1942
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Posted - 2014.04.11 08:38:00 -
[17] - Quote
I think the relationship between Commandos and Assaults should in some ways be two sides of the same coin. I feel that both roles should be DPS, but the Assault should be a more balanced and flexible approach, bolstering average speed, defense, and utility with a strong emphasis on DPS. The Commando is a more specialized role focusing somewhat on defense due to high base HP and less on speed and utility, but with very focused DPS.
Now which role these sets of bonuses go to is up for debate so I won't dive much into that right now, but here are some proposed ideas.
Role 1: General Bonus: +5%/lvl to Light/Sidearm Reload Speed Minmatar: +2%/lvl to Kinetic and Explosive damage Gallente: +2%/lvl to Thermal Damage Caldari: +2%/lvl to Hybrid-Rail Damage Amarr: +2%/lvl to Laser Damage
Role 2: General Bonus: +1% to All Light/Sidearm Weapon Damage Minmatar: +3%/lvl Shield Recharger/Energizer Gallente: +3%/lvl Armor Repairers Caldari: +3%/lvl Shield Extenders Amarr: +3%/lvl Armor Plates
Role 1 is primarily focused with keeping overall DPS extremely high with quick reloads and a +10% at level 5 to a specific race's weapon type. Role 2 gives less of a DPS bonus but allows for flexibility is what weapons you can use due to a flat +5% bonus to all weapons, it also offers additional defenses making the suit a little more survivable.
In short: Role 1 = Total DPS Focus Role 2 = Balance of DPS and defenses.
I would probably keep the Commando as Role 1 and make the Assault Role 2, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
879
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Posted - 2014.04.11 21:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
Good discussion to all.
I think that having the Assault suit bonues suite mix DPS / Defensive related perks is the way to go. That one point I would offer that diverges from Pokey's concept is that I would prefer to adjust base values of the suit rather than targeting perks to specific modules. I undestand the logic, it's simiilar to how the approach with weapons based bonuses are addressed.
Additionally, I think we might want to look at going away from "tech tags" and more to "racial tags". Example - CalAssault would get bonuses applied to rail rifle / MagSec AND the swarm launcher.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1944
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Posted - 2014.04.11 21:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Good discussion to all.
I think that having the Assault suit bonues suite mix DPS / Defensive related perks is the way to go. That one point I would offer that diverges from Pokey's concept is that I would prefer to adjust base values of the suit rather than targeting perks to specific modules. I undestand the logic, it's simiilar to how the approach with weapons based bonuses are addressed.
Additionally, I think we might want to look at going away from "tech tags" and more to "racial tags". Example - CalAssault would get bonuses applied to rail rifle / MagSec AND the swarm launcher.
Yes the tag system is completely borked right now and should be redone. It's very difficult to come up with bonuses that work well and encompass all of the race's weapons/gear. Then we can get pirate faction gear that uses two skills for bonuses
As for the bonuses to the suit itself instead of the modules, i would actually agree. The reason I proposed the bonus to modules is because CCP has stated that they wanted to move away from flat suit bonuses and apply them to modules instead in order to shift emphasis on fitting, rather the suit itself. Whether or not we should stick with this design direction is obviously up for debate.
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Funkmaster Whale
Ancient Exiles.
1811
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Posted - 2014.04.12 07:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Good discussion to all.
I think that having the Assault suit bonues suite mix DPS / Defensive related perks is the way to go. That one point I would offer that diverges from Pokey's concept is that I would prefer to adjust base values of the suit rather than targeting perks to specific modules. I undestand the logic, it's simiilar to how the approach with weapons based bonuses are addressed.
Additionally, I think we might want to look at going away from "tech tags" and more to "racial tags". Example - CalAssault would get bonuses applied to rail rifle / MagSec AND the swarm launcher.
Yes the tag system is completely borked right now and should be redone. It's very difficult to come up with bonuses that work well and encompass all of the race's weapons/gear. Then we can get pirate faction gear that uses two skills for bonuses As for the bonuses to the suit itself instead of the modules, i would actually agree. The reason I proposed the bonus to modules is because CCP has stated that they wanted to move away from flat suit bonuses and apply them to modules instead in order to shift emphasis on fitting, rather the suit itself. Whether or not we should stick with this design direction is obviously up for debate. Where exactly did they say "they wanted to move away from flat suit bonuses and apply them to modules instead in order to shift emphasis on fitting"?
Because to me the current iterations of the Scout and Sentinel bonuses do not speak to such. The only current classes that have module-specific bonuses are Assaults, Logis, and Commandos. The design philosophy for the suits doesn't make any sense with this kind of imbalance, and I've pointed this out before. I can understand "role-specific" bonuses such as Caldari Scout being an EWAR suit designed to increase scan precision, but these bonuses are still applied and very effective no matter how you fit your suit.
The same is certainly not true for any Assault suit. If you decide to use a Combat Rifle on a Caldari Assault, your suit and ~2.5m SP spent gives you no bonus. You almost wouldn't be any worse off just sticking with the Basic Frame if you wanted to run a different weapon from the Rail Rifle while still heavy shield tanking. That ~2.5m SP to get the respective Assault suit would just allow you to save a handful of CPU/PG and a shinier looking suit. Worth it?
IMO the way CCP went about balancing Assault and Logi suits seems to have been an afterthought. For example, Logis shouldn't have gotten a fitting bonus but instead something along the lines of "5% increase to efficacy of equipment (nanites, repair rate, scanner duration/precision, etc.) per level" as their base bonus with respective defensive/survival bonuses to the individual suits, then have Assaults in a similar fashion with something along the lines of "2% to light weapon/sidearm damage per level", or even the "2% to RoF to light weapons" like they had before the Amarr starting crying.
Let me play you the song of my people!
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2001
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Posted - 2014.04.12 20:40:00 -
[21] - Quote
It was an older quote, I'll have to dig it out. And with the new EP their stance on the matter may have changed. I'm not saying I agree with the old philosophy, just trying to not rewrite the entire book for a conceptual design. I would actually prefer more universal bonuses like the Scouts and Sentinels have.
Like my ideas?
Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Text Grant
Death Firm. Canis Eliminatus Operatives
377
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 18:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=156264&find=unread |
Shadow of War88
0uter.Heaven
233
|
Posted - 2014.04.26 21:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
Canari Elphus wrote:I fear that many of the choices that CCP makes are reactionary measures based on the community and dont really sit down to think about the true roles of each suit class and trying to give them a definitive role on the battlefield. I think some of the changes are in the right direction but either not effective enough or too restrictive.
First thing to look at is what is each role supposed to accomplish.
Heavy - point defense. They are tanks who are supposed to take a lot of damage and discourage unorganized frontal assaults. Thus, their bonuses of resistances are probably the best thought out in the game. I think that the HMG is a little bit too good of a killer at times but not horribly so. Its in a good spot right now.
Scouts - flankers. They are glass cannons who are made to help flank the enemy and harass them behind front lines. Their bonuses are fine in terms of profile and precision. The only issue comes with their ability to brick tank and still retain their speed. I think that they should possibly have more of a de-buffer if they choose to brick where plates might have a greater effect on their speed and shields have more of an effect on their profile.
Logis - support. I like the role bonus of reduction to equipment costs. The racial bonuses are way too restrictive however and give little reason to carrying a diverse equipment loadout. It tends to make equipment almost useless if not part of your bonus. I think that all logis should have some sort of base effectiveness for equipment but that certain races get a little more than others. IE - if you are a Min Logi, you get a 100% bonus to Min equipment, a 75% bonus to Gal (allies), and a 50% bonus to Cal and Amarr. This helps so that you have a reason to be one logi versus another but your equipment isnt completely gimped.
Assaults - frontline. An assaults job is pure fighting. They honestly have the worst thought out bonus of all. They are meant to have a decent amount of tank and deal very good damage. They are the grunts of the game. I think that the origional proposal of having an efficacy to damage mods gives them a focused role and reason to choose them over a scout or logi. If they had a 10% bonus for each level, that means that it would give a 50% bonus to complex damage mods, or a 7.5% bonus overall. This makes them more effective as killers without being game-breakingly so. They need something because they are bad with equipment and have issues being too stealthy.
Agreed on all points, but i dont think CCP will give this a high priority sense before the ratio was 1 Assault OP class overshadowing everything, now u have heavies and scouts and commandos in balance vs just 1 class UP.
Give assaults more damage output and i think it could spell a easy fix. Commandos would still have more HP and versatility than assaults therefore still useful.
& justice for all
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Zatara Rought
Fatal Absolution
2658
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Posted - 2014.04.27 13:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
significantly less slots and a light weapon instead of a sidearm means more versatility?
I disagree.
I much prefer Kagehoshi's more measured approach.
CEO of FA
B3RT>PFBHz>TP>IMP>FA
Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
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