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Funkmaster Whale
0uter.Heaven
1635
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Posted - 2014.03.30 18:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I've been kind of pissed at myself for going the inferior Assault for many reasons that I've pointed out in other threads. I did a thread comparing the Scout ck.0 vs Assault ck.0 bonuses and was appalled at how much better Scouts were in almost every regard.
To summarize, I converted the bonuses into modules that the other suit would have to fit in order to match its base stats. Keep in mind this is for the Caldari Scout vs Assault. Here's what I found:
Assault
1x Complex Shield Extender
1x Basic Armor Plate
Scout
+1 Complex Shield Energizer
+2 Complex Shield Regulator
+1 Complex Profile Dampener
+1 Complex Precision Enhancer
+2 Complex Range Amplifier
+1 Basic Cardiac Regulator
+1 Enhanced Kinetic Catalyzer
+1 Basic Codebreaker
In essence, an Assault would have to fit the all the above modules (not possible) in order to match the base stats of a Scout. On the other hand, the Scout would need to fit 1x Complex Shield Extender and 1x Basic Armor plate and he'd have effectively the same stats the Assault get. Fair? Hardly.
Now I took a look at the CPU/PG allocated to both the suits. Now, my Assault ck.0 has always had a problem of never being able to make an adequate fit without a CPU Enhancer.
The CPU/PG of the Assault ck.0 sits at 394/79. The Scout ck.0 is 457/87. The Assault has a slot layout of 4 H / 3 L / 1 Eq, while the Scout is 4 H / 2 L / 2 Eq. Having to almost always fit a basic CPU enhancer to bring my CPU up enough to fit what I want, my Assault's CPU is 457/79. Think about that.
...
...
...
So having wasted a low slot and now sitting at 4 H / 2 L / 1 Eq with 457 CPU / 79 PG, the Assault has LESS fitting potential than the 4 H / 2 L / 2 Eq Scout with 457 CPU / 87 PG.
How in the **** does this make sense?
Let me play you the song of my people!
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Fizzer94
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
2446
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Posted - 2014.03.30 18:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think the intention is so that you don't need to have scout V to have a decent fit with a cloak.
Fizzer94 // Forum Warrior Operation II // MAG Vet
Gallente Neutron Rifle
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Scheneighnay McBob
Endless Hatred
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
4566
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Posted - 2014.03.30 18:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
Because cloaks take a fuckton of CPU/PG
I am your scan error.
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Funkmaster Whale
0uter.Heaven
1635
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Posted - 2014.03.30 18:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Because cloaks take a fuckton of CPU/PG
That you get 75% reduction to...
Then you may say, "Well Mr. Funkmaster, you nifty Assaults get fitting bonus to light weapons and sidearms!"
At best, fitting something at costly as the Kaalakiota Rail Rifle (one of the highest fitting reqs.) saves you about 21 CPU / 4 PG, and an Ishukone Assault SMG saves is 17 CPU / 3 PG. A total of 38 CPU / 7 PG saved from the fitting bonus. These are both PROTOTYPE weapons. Even with the bonus, I still can't fit what I want (using a Toxin SMG and not an Ishukone Assault SMG mind you).
A Scout? 75% reduction to a BASIC CLOAK saves 120 CPU / 26 PG. Not only that, you still have another equipment slot to play with.
Hardly an excuse.
Let me play you the song of my people!
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GeneralButtNaked
Amarr Templars
942
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Posted - 2014.03.30 18:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
It is almost like CCP didn't really think this through.
Not like that ever happens.
Real AV doesn't stop until all the tanks are dead.
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Funkmaster Whale
0uter.Heaven
1635
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Posted - 2014.03.30 18:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Fizzer94 wrote:I think the intention is so that you don't need to have scout V to have a decent fit with a cloak.
Then what's the intention behind the Assault?
There's literally nothing that an Assault is useful for that the now superior Scouts can't do better. Trading ~100 +/- 50 EHP for literally a dozen other bonuses is not a trade that makes the Assault stand out.
Nothing. You look at the Scouts and go "Wow I can fit cloaks and still run around dropping uplinks or REs and be useful to my team! I'm sneaky and fast and versatile with the added equipment and fitting!"
You look at Assaults and go "Uhhh... i can.... reload... faster? Uhhh, less dispersion? More bullets in my clip...? Yeah, I'll pass."
Let me play you the song of my people!
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Patrick57
6425
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Posted - 2014.03.30 18:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Because Scout > All |
Hir Ranthar
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
25
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Posted - 2014.03.30 18:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Or maybe there's the fact that from what I hear, the Medium frame "balance" pass has yet to be deployed?
I know that's not really a valid response right now, but it's the information we've got.
This is the Kaalakiota Bolt Pistol- the most powerful handgun in New Eden.
So tell me, do you feel lucky, Punk?
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
7897
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Posted - 2014.03.30 19:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
How about a 75% reduction to the CPU/PG of weaponry? 
My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone.
If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up.
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Funkmaster Whale
0uter.Heaven
1635
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Posted - 2014.03.30 19:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:How about a 75% reduction to the CPU/PG of weaponry?
That'd be a start, but I'd honestly just prefer a base increase in CPU / PG.
The regen delays between Scout and Assault need to be switched. There's no reason a Scout needs 3s / 4s / 50 delays/regen while the Assault gets 5s / 6s / 30 when the Scout has the speed, scan profile, and cloak to dodge and get away from trouble. Assaults don't have that luxury. We have to sit behind cover to wait and recover between battles while almost everyone can see us.
The Assaults should have the best regen / regen delays / repair rate of all the suits. It makes no sense that Scouts have all the Scout-oriented bonus compounded with all the Assault-oriented bonuses while Assaults just get a little bit more EHP and LESS fitting potential.
Let me play you the song of my people!
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Cyrius Li-Moody
0uter.Heaven
4266
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Posted - 2014.03.30 19:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
High regen is needed for low buffer. High buffer high regen is bad (see madrugars with 3 reppers).
Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
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Funkmaster Whale
0uter.Heaven
1636
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Posted - 2014.03.30 19:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:High regen is needed for low buffer. High buffer high regen is bad (see madrugars with 3 reppers).
Then tell me why we see Gallente Scouts with 500-600 armor while being invisible to scans / have cloak / better armor rep / are faster than Gallente Assaults?
Why is it that a Caldari Scout can fit all extenders and have only 100 less shield than my Assault and is faster / better regen delay / better regen / go invisible / is way faster than my Assault?
What is it an Assault is supposed to do then if you seem to think high buffer / high regen is a bad idea?
Let me play you the song of my people!
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J0LLY R0G3R
Dirt Nap Squad.
679
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Posted - 2014.03.30 19:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
Scouts FTW
++++Gimme Back my SG RoF++++
XD Indeed, chase me friend XD
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
850
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Posted - 2014.03.30 19:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
Funkmaster Whale wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:High regen is needed for low buffer. High buffer high regen is bad (see madrugars with 3 reppers). Then tell me why we see Gallente Scouts with 500-600 armor while being invisible to scans / have cloak / better armor rep / are faster than Gallente Assaults? Why is it that a Caldari Scout can fit all extenders and have only 100 less shield than my Assault and is faster / better regen delay / better regen / go invisible / is way faster than my Assault? What is it an Assault is supposed to do then if you seem to think high buffer / high regen is a bad idea?
Assault do get a bonus to their weapons...ignore the Cal Assault it's bonus isn't great. But the other Assaults that's a huge bonus. Even the the reload bonus means you'll win in a firefight with a scout.
But I do agree Assaults need the highest regen and could use the highest built in repper.
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Cyrius Li-Moody
0uter.Heaven
4266
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Posted - 2014.03.30 19:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Funkmaster Whale wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:High regen is needed for low buffer. High buffer high regen is bad (see madrugars with 3 reppers). Then tell me why we see Gallente Scouts with 500-600 armor while being invisible to scans / have cloak / better armor rep / are faster than Gallente Assaults? Why is it that a Caldari Scout can fit all extenders and have only 100 less shield than my Assault and is faster / better regen delay / better regen / go invisible / is way faster than my Assault? What is it an Assault is supposed to do then if you seem to think high buffer / high regen is a bad idea?
Because those are terrible scout fits. Yes you can accomplish those things but you remove their place in the food chain. A scout with half their HP will kick their ass and see them from a mile away.
I agree assaults need a buff but scouts are hit and run suits. Low buffer. High regen.
Rather than nerfing scouts how about we just buff assaults and rebalance plates?
Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
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Henchmen21
Planet Express LLC
824
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Posted - 2014.03.30 19:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Far as I know they didn't get around to changing medium suits stats and layouts. So yea there gonna be the odd man out at this time.
CCP you better nail 1.8, as it stands 1.7 is a total disaster.
Henchmen21: Infantry
Gotyougood Ufkr: Vehicles
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The Infected One
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
1225
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Posted - 2014.03.30 19:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
The Minmatar suits are fine. Leave them alone.
Thanks.
I am here to ask you one question, and one question only: EXPLOSIONS?
--. . - + ..-. ..- -.-. -.- . -..
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Funkmaster Whale
0uter.Heaven
1640
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Posted - 2014.03.30 19:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Because those are terrible scout fits. Yes you can accomplish those things but you remove their place in the food chain. A scout with half their HP will kick their ass and see them from a mile away.
I agree assaults need a buff but scouts are hit and run suits. Low buffer. High regen.
Rather than nerfing scouts how about we just buff assaults and rebalance plates?
I never said anything about nerfing Scouts. I think how they rebalanced them is perfectly fine.
The problem is now that Scouts overshadow Assaults in almost every way. Like I said, there's nothing an Assault offers that a Scout can't do better now. Medium frames in general need a buff and need to be given unique Assault-oriented bonus. Faster reload and dispersion aren't Assault bonuses.
IMO, there's 3 broad classes of survivability that should be viable. Speed, health, and regen. High speed allows you to get away or get in a better position quickly which is what Scouts have, high health allows you to sustain fire in combat and remain alive which is what Heavies have, and high regen allows you to duck in and out of combat and be ready to fight quickly after each engagement... which is what Scouts have.
Of course, you have to strike a balance between these three as it's not an all-or-nothing type balance. As it stands, Assaults are not able to do their job nearly as effectively as a Scout in the same role would because they have pretty much similar EHPs while the Scout can take damage and be ready to fight twice as fast as an Assault can.
Let me play you the song of my people!
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Lylith Groff
Endless Hatred
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
3
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Posted - 2014.03.30 19:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Funkmaster Whale wrote:Cat Merc wrote:How about a 75% reduction to the CPU/PG of weaponry? That'd be a start, but I'd honestly just prefer a base increase in CPU / PG. The regen delays between Scout and Assault need to be switched. There's no reason a Scout needs 3s / 4s / 50 delays/regen while the Assault gets 5s / 6s / 30 when the Scout has the speed, scan profile, and cloak to dodge and get away from trouble. Assaults don't have that luxury. We have to sit behind cover to wait and recover between battles while almost everyone can see us. The Assaults should have the best regen / regen delays / repair rate of all the suits. It makes no sense that Scouts have all the Scout-oriented bonus compounded with all the Assault-oriented bonuses while Assaults just get a little bit more EHP and LESS fitting potential.
Although I'm wary of trying for reasons I can't pinpoint... I feel that you are right with switching the delays. Don't touch the regeneration, just the delays. That feels right. By the time I finish my engagement and reposition my shield is full (I play the scout class exclusively). The Assault not only has to wait between engagements, like you mentioned, but also during the engagement. |
DozersMouse XIII
Ultramarine Corp
311
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Posted - 2014.03.30 20:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
assaults need their shield regen bonus back
Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes
Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake
Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
7908
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Posted - 2014.03.30 20:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
Galvan Nized wrote:Funkmaster Whale wrote:Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:High regen is needed for low buffer. High buffer high regen is bad (see madrugars with 3 reppers). Then tell me why we see Gallente Scouts with 500-600 armor while being invisible to scans / have cloak / better armor rep / are faster than Gallente Assaults? Why is it that a Caldari Scout can fit all extenders and have only 100 less shield than my Assault and is faster / better regen delay / better regen / go invisible / is way faster than my Assault? What is it an Assault is supposed to do then if you seem to think high buffer / high regen is a bad idea? Assault do get a bonus to their weapons...ignore the Cal Assault it's bonus isn't great. But the other Assaults that's a huge bonus. Even the the reload bonus means you'll win in a firefight with a scout. But I do agree Assaults need the highest regen and could use the highest built in repper.
Gallente Assault bonus is FAR from a huge bonus.
If it was like 50% then maybe, but compared to overheat reduction? Larger clip? Dafuq?
My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone.
If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up.
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mollerz
3123
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Posted - 2014.03.30 23:28:00 -
[22] - Quote
The irony here is that assaults used to do everything a scout could do better.
Scouts are fine.. assaults need to get buffed.
You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
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Echo 1991
WarRavens
League of Infamy
171
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Posted - 2014.03.31 02:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
mollerz wrote:The irony here is that assaults used to do everything a scout could do better.
Scouts are fine.. assaults need to get buffed.
They aren't fine. they dont need the amount of pg and cpu they have when they get a reduction of 75% percent to the main equipment that they use. If i was to max all of the range, dampening and precision and use the assault i would still be picked up on scans, would not have a way of detecting a cloaked scout (dont say use your eyes, i cant look 360 degrees at all times) and have a crap range, so even if i somehow picked you up on my passive scans i would probably get killed by a tanked out scout.
I would have to give up fitting HP mods and such to get the same benefit that scouts get because they are scouts, they dont need to run those mods, they are invisible to everything apart from a caldari scout and a proto scanner on a gallente logi.
you can speed tank or brick tank and still be practically undetectable unless you run in front of people.
Even if you buffed assaults, we would still have no feasible way to detect you unless we just happen to see you running or see a shimmer and hope its a scout.
if i could have a way of detecting a cloaked scout on my assault i would use it, the active scanner might pick you up but i would 9 times out of 10 have to know where you were in the first place AND you would have to have no skills in the suit cos the STD and ADV scanners cant pick up scouts. The cloak needs a counter and scouts should not have similar eHP to an assault suit whilst being faster and invisible. |
Denn Maell
PIanet Express
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
254
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Posted - 2014.03.31 02:32:00 -
[24] - Quote
Really looking forward to the new slot layouts and CPU/PG (and possible shield regen) numbers. Otherwise Assaults are justGǪgoneGǪ
The most OP weapon on the Dust Battle Field:
One good logi, one rep tool, and a heavy.
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
5423
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Posted - 2014.03.31 03:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
GeneralButtNaked wrote:It is almost like CCP didn't really think this through.
Not like that ever happens.
Hmmm, it's never happened before so probably not...
1st Official Role Playing Gallente Asshole -Title Awarded by True Adamance
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8213
BIG BAD W0LVES
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
2026
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Posted - 2014.03.31 03:26:00 -
[26] - Quote
Come now. Scrubs scouts complained long enough, and CCP does what they always did... shift everything in their favor all at once.
This game has some great scouts pre 1.8. Now, we have a bunch of mediocre scouts that couldn't have done 90% of what they can accomplish now, pre 1.7.
True Scouts get mixed in with their garbage counterparts, and eventually will get screwed over when the nerf hammer cycle comes back around. Just like tank were in 1.7.
I will say that Scouts aren't that bad though. For all the advantages they have, they have some stupid add-ons that don't amount to anything. The cloak is useless, and I see more and more players catching on to it everyday. The Minmatar hacking bonus is neat, but it's racial bonus does nothing to support the player itself. Yeah, you can hack a point just as fast as my Logi Speedhack character... and die quicker afterwards...
The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is the amount of HP they can build on. Seems unbalanced.
The cloaking glitch, is just that; a glitch. If people want to exploit it, let them. When CCP fixes it (or nerfs cloaking as the fix, like they did swarms in 1.7) those players will suffer.
These FoTM chasers have to start realizing that the game catches up with them eventually. Of course by then, they have enough SP saved to dive right into the next FoTM...
I ain't got time for dat sh!t
At least I'm not King ThunderBolt
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Venerable Phage
Red Shirts Away Team
98
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Posted - 2014.03.31 03:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
My alt Vaine Hunter was using a STD bricked Scout in 1.7
I've had plenty of success now with a non bricked radar unit (passive scan mods of all flavours) with a MLT shotgun. Tanked up scouts have to look out for even sneaker variants. However the counter to scouts isn't just other scouts.
Play a scout, learn its strengths and weaknesses and you will either enjoy and/or know how to counter it. |
Echo 1991
WarRavens
League of Infamy
171
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Posted - 2014.03.31 15:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
Venerable Phage wrote:My alt Vaine Hunter was using a STD bricked Scout in 1.7
I've had plenty of success now with a non bricked radar unit (passive scan mods of all flavours) with a MLT shotgun. Tanked up scouts have to look out for even sneaker variants. However the counter to scouts isn't just other scouts.
Play a scout, learn its strengths and weaknesses and you will either enjoy and/or know how to counter it.
There is no counter to a cloaked scout that other infantry can use. The only item that pick them up is a duvolle focused scanner on a gal logi. |
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