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1.8 Combat Rifle Still King

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Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3614	Posted - 2014.03.24 22:03:00 - [1] - Quote Combat Rifle 1.8 DPS: 540 Flat Shield DPS (-5%) 513 Armor DPS (+10%): 594 20 shots per second, and just under 7 trigger pulls to the second. Assault Rifle 1.8 DPS: 375 Flat Shield DPS (+10%): 412.5 Armor DPS (-10%): 337.5 Shield DPS Proficiency 5: 474.375 Scrambler Rifle 1.8 DPS: 764.7 Flat (and Unrealistic) Armor DPS (-20%): 611.8 Shield DPS (+20%): 917.64 All Require the maximum 12 shots in just over a second which is very difficult to tap that fast. Scrambler DPS @ the 7 pulls to the second: DPS Flat: 455 DPS Armor: 364 DPS Shields: 546 Rail Rifle 1.8 DPS: 361.5 Flat Armor DPS (+10%): 397.7 Shield DPS (-10%): 325.35 I have tried the combat rifle and am dismayed at the lack of cons to the weapon. In 1.8 CCP made it appear as if Combat was getting nerfed harder than the rest of the weapons. 1.8 statistically speaking is still the domain of the combat rifle. As you can see it suffers less of a penalty than an AR but just as much buff. It gives 3 shots to the pull, no heat, highest RoF, least shield penalty available (-5%), on par for armor buff with rail rifle (+10%). While the ScR provides the highest theoretical DPS yields, you require a turbo controller basically and you will overheat while the combat rifle can output it's tremendous DPS with consistency. Combat Rifle deals a higher DPS to shields than an AR and the Combat Rifle does "poorly" against shields while the AR does best against shields. Only the scrambler rifle can out compete it and even then it has consistency issues and requires an Amarr Assault for the best of results. You can literally get ambushed by an AR, turn around and kill them faster with a Combat Rifle. Minmatar Combat Rifle does not require you to use a Minmatar suit which have the lowest HP. If purely the lowest HP suit got the highest DPS weapon maybe it would be balanced. Big maybe. Quite plainly anyone who does not drop the two mill into Combat Rifles in 1.8 would be crazy. Now a big argument for those who use the weapon is that "It's only OP because a majority of the players Armor tank" Armor Tanking has the highest HP ceiling meaning you should last the longest under direct fire pretty much speaking but you are slowed down meaning that you are an easier target to begin with. The Combat Rifle is dealing nearly 600 armor damage a second and once armor is gone you are gone. An AR has as much shield bias as the combat rifle has armor bias but even it is out competed by the Combat Rifle against shields and the Combat Rifle is 5% gimped to shields. This is nonsense. Assault Rifle and Rail Rifle are nonfactors in 1.8 and to counter the combat rifle you will need to dual tank because it performs so well against both and you will need to be an Amarr Assault with an ScR and a turbo controller or a headshot king. The stipulations required to run that set up are 10 fold greater than the CR. This is nonsense. I will close the vent now. EDIT: Sources other than in-game info: http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/11/weapons-of-uprising-1.7/ for damage profiles http://dust514.com/news/blog/2014/03/expanding-the-arsenal-with-uprising-1.8/ for 1.8 damage 68 inches above sea level...
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 2358	Posted - 2014.03.24 22:14:00 - [2] - Quote I would be happy if they just made it +5/-5 instead of the +5/-10 BS it is now. There is no reason for it to be the way it is now. Fizzer94 // Forum Warrior Operation II // MAG Vet Gallente Neutron Rifle
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3615	Posted - 2014.03.24 22:17:00 - [3] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: I would be happy if they just made it +5/-5 instead of the +5/-10 BS it is now. There is no reason for it to be the way it is now. +10/-5 BS yeah but even then it's still out DPS'ing an AR against shields, even the AR with proficiency 5 (this is all 1.8 talk BTW) 68 inches above sea level...
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3672	Posted - 2014.03.24 22:19:00 - [4] - Quote The OP of RRs & CRs is down to the fundamental way they function. Unless CCP wants to give them an enormous statistical hit, they're going to have to change that before the weapons are balanced. No.
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 2358	Posted - 2014.03.24 22:20:00 - [5] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: I would be happy if they just made it +5/-5 instead of the +5/-10 BS it is now. There is no reason for it to be the way it is now. +10/-5 BS yeah but even then it's still out DPS'ing an AR against shields, even the AR with proficiency 5 (this is all 1.8 talk BTW) Well. I will say that it should do more DPS than the automatic rifles because it is a burst weapon and requires a small amount more input from the use. I'm not sure how much more DPS it should do though. Fizzer94 // Forum Warrior Operation II // MAG Vet Gallente Neutron Rifle
Cyzad4 Blackfish Corp. 219	Posted - 2014.03.24 22:23:00 - [6] - Quote I don't understand why they nerfed damage instead of just increasing the the characteristics of the weapons them selves. Up charge time a bit for the RR so it would get you wrecked in CQC but not hugely influence long range combat (which isn't that what it was for?) and and put in maybe 1/8th (to start) sec delay between bursts for the CR. Honestly I use the CR, I've tried the other guns I just like how the CR feels but you can't logically argue that it shouldn't have at least a fraction of a second delay between 3 shot bursts. And in case anyone is wondering I've got prof and SS to 5 so it's not like I don't have SP invested, I'm just more interested in balanced weaponry than ruling through an irrational firing mechanism. Welcome to you're "DOOM"
RECON BY FIRE Imperfects Negative-Feedback 345	Posted - 2014.03.24 22:26:00 - [7] - Quote So the huge bounce that you get with the CR isn't a downside at range? Unless youre in somebodies face it is impossible to get the full DPS at range if you just spam the trigger. Whereas the RR has laughable recoil, and as far as I can tell NO dispersion, and its pretty much the same story with the SCR. And the RR can hit you for full damage all the way out to, wtf is it? 110 motherfucking meters!? STFU about how OP the CR is, its no more OP than the RR and SCR. Honestly theres only one problem with rifles right now and its that the AR doesn't compare with any of the rest of them. Stuff....?
Aria Gomes R 0 N 1 N 318	Posted - 2014.03.24 22:27:00 - [8] - Quote CR is gonna be king. I can see CR users going Minmatar Assault. I know I'm gonna add a few pts back into Min Assault.
Emperor1349 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 49	Posted - 2014.03.24 22:30:00 - [9] - Quote How much DPS if you miss a burst? Same as SCR if you miss a shot or two what's the stats look like vs fully auto. You guys got your ******** long TTK back, give it a rest. R.I.P Mag - SVER
JIMvc2 UNREAL WARRIORS 53	Posted - 2014.03.24 22:32:00 - [10] - Quote CR being King, I call that Bull. My Breach Assault rifle does more damage and Im glad ccp didnt touch those. AS >>>>>>> CR. If you run proto gear, prepare to suffer the consequences. You've been warned.

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8800	Posted - 2014.03.24 22:32:00 - [11] - Quote RECON BY FIRE wrote: So the huge bounce that you get with the CR isn't a downside at range? Unless youre in somebodies face it is impossible to get the full DPS at range if you just spam the trigger. Whereas the RR has laughable recoil, and as far as I can tell NO dispersion, and its pretty much the same story with the SCR. And the RR can hit you for full damage all the way out to, wtf is it? 110 motherfucking meters!? STFU about how OP the CR is, its no more OP than the RR and SCR. Honestly theres only one problem with rifles right now and its that the AR doesn't compare with any of the rest of them. CR is laser accurate to about 50m...... I should know I've started bringing them into my rotation over ScR...and using the Amarr Logi to make the most of its bonus. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Emperor1349 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 49	Posted - 2014.03.24 22:33:00 - [12] - Quote Aria Gomes wrote: CR is gonna be king. I can see CR users going Minmatar Assault. I know I'm gonna add a few pts back into Min Assault. I've been minmatar assault since Feb last year and was glad to get a racial version of a rifle. I'll still be min assault post 1.8. R.I.P Mag - SVER
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3617	Posted - 2014.03.24 22:34:00 - [13] - Quote Emperor1349 wrote: How much DPS if you miss a burst? Same as SCR if you miss a shot or two what's the stats look like vs fully auto. You guys got your ******** long TTK back, give it a rest. That argument exists for every weapon. I said statistically speaking. 68 inches above sea level...
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3617	Posted - 2014.03.24 22:37:00 - [14] - Quote JIMvc2 wrote: CR being King, I call that Bull. My Breach Assault rifle does more damage and Im glad ccp didnt touch those. AS >>>>>>> CR. They did nerf the Breach Assault rifle in 1.8 if you did not see I love the Breach Assault Rifle I will forever love it and use it but you are incorrect. CR will still be king. 68 inches above sea level...
Orin the Freak The Solecism of Limitation 732	Posted - 2014.03.24 22:56:00 - [15] - Quote Bojo, your numbers may be correct, on paper. But in real-world application, they are pretty far off. for one, you have to consider not every shot is going to land. One missed shot takes up 3x the ammunition the scrambler or RR does. Furthermore, the CR has less optimal range than the others, so unless you're using a fast, stealthy suit to close gaps, you're going to have to rely on cover a lot more. Then there's the huge factor you are missing, which is trigger pull lag. The CR currently has a horrible imput lag (I assume it's tied to server lag) where trigger pulls are anything but reliable. Sometimes it takes what seems like forever in between bursts, and other times it's near-instantaneous. You are only calculating the later, and disregarding the former. The combat rifle could still be a contender, that is TBD. But it will NOT be as powerful as the RR, or ScR. I personally don't think DPS is something that should be compared in DUST, seeing as how it's almost never 100% dealt, due to misses, and extenuating circumstances.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11679	Posted - 2014.03.24 22:57:00 - [16] - Quote Emperor1349 wrote: How much DPS if you miss a burst? Same as SCR if you miss a shot or two what's the stats look like vs fully auto. You guys got your ******** long TTK back, give it a rest. If we're factoring in misses, that hurts the CR the least as it has the highest RoF of all these weapons. And it would still have by far the best damage output. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Orin the Freak The Solecism of Limitation 732	Posted - 2014.03.24 23:00:00 - [17] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Emperor1349 wrote: How much DPS if you miss a burst? Same as SCR if you miss a shot or two what's the stats look like vs fully auto. You guys got your ******** long TTK back, give it a rest. If we're factoring in misses, that hurts the CR the least as it has the highest RoF of all these weapons. And it would still have by far the best damage output. highest RoF... in 3 round bursts. as I stated in my previous post, a miss with the CR is 3x more ammo than the other rifles. Which means one miss takes you 3 rounds closer to having to reload than the other guy. and as we all know, reloads in the middle of a firefight are deadly.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8801	Posted - 2014.03.24 23:01:00 - [18] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: Bojo, your numbers may be correct, on paper. But in real-world application, they are pretty far off. for one, you have to consider not every shot is going to land. One missed shot takes up 3x the ammunition the scrambler or RR does. Furthermore, the CR has less optimal range than the others, so unless you're using a fast, stealthy suit to close gaps, you're going to have to rely on cover a lot more. Then there's the huge factor you are missing, which is trigger pull lag. The CR currently has a horrible input lag (I assume it's tied to server lag) where trigger pulls are anything but reliable. Sometimes it takes what seems like forever in between bursts, and other times it's near-instantaneous. You are only calculating the later, and disregarding the former. The combat rifle could still be a contender, that is TBD. But it will NOT be as powerful as the RR, or ScR. I personally don't think DPS is something that should be compared in DUST, seeing as how it's almost never 100% dealt, due to misses, and extenuating circumstances. And yet he provides numbers and support and your evidence is based of speculation.... "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3620	Posted - 2014.03.24 23:03:00 - [19] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: Bojo, your numbers may be correct, on paper. But in real-world application, they are pretty far off. for one, you have to consider not every shot is going to land. One missed shot takes up 3x the ammunition the scrambler or RR does. Furthermore, the CR has less optimal range than the others, so unless you're using a fast, stealthy suit to close gaps, you're going to have to rely on cover a lot more. Not every shot is going to land on the AR either and it has less DPS. It also has less range than CR. I did put a "statistically speaking" disclaimer at top Quote: Then there's the huge factor you are missing, which is trigger pull lag. The CR currently has a horrible input lag (I assume it's tied to server lag) where trigger pulls are anything but reliable. Sometimes it takes what seems like forever in between bursts, and other times it's near-instantaneous. You are only calculating the later, and disregarding the former. That's not lag that's your lack of timing. If you pull the trigger before shots are finished then it will not fire the next burst. That's user fault not server. Even if you hear the CR as being finished. I have come across many people who have been able to time their shots perfectly and put me down faster than a second shields included. Quote: The combat rifle could still be a contender, that is TBD. But it will NOT be as powerful as the RR, or ScR. I personally don't think DPS is something that should be compared in DUST, seeing as how it's almost never 100% dealt, due to misses, and extenuating circumstances. Ohhh yes it will. ScR is only overtly powerful on the Amarr Assault and that is a borderline OP discussion but you have to wear the suit to get the results. As you can see, I matched the results of how many trigger pulls per second are required by both ScR and CR and you need a seriously quick finger to beat out the CR. RR is honestly getting the best most balanced nerf in my opinion, I do not believe it will be OP in 1.8 and that's coming from me, I hate them to death because they put my BrAR to shame. 68 inches above sea level...
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 266	Posted - 2014.03.24 23:06:00 - [20] - Quote Well his statement about the lag is based on experience. Any CR user knows what he is talking about. On the OP - CR got the biggest nerf and you still want more??? or just stating CR (and RR and ScR) will be king "Shine bright like a diamond"

Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11682	Posted - 2014.03.24 23:07:00 - [21] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Emperor1349 wrote: How much DPS if you miss a burst? Same as SCR if you miss a shot or two what's the stats look like vs fully auto. You guys got your ****** long TTK back, give it a rest. If we're factoring in misses, that hurts the CR the least as it has the highest RoF of all these weapons. And it would still have by far the best damage output. highest RoF... in 3 round bursts. as I stated in my previous post, a miss with the CR is 3x more ammo than the other rifles. Which means one miss takes you 3 rounds closer to having to reload than the other guy. and as we all know, reloads in the middle of a firefight are deadly. Why does a miss with one bullet of a burst mean you miss with the rest of it? It doesn't. It is entirely possible, and in fact quite likely that you will miss sometimes with one bullet of a burst and hit with another. The net effect is you have a very high RoF. It doesn't function any differently overall. Master Smurf wrote:** Well his statement about the lag is based on experience. Any CR user knows what he is talking about. On the OP - CR got the biggest nerf and you still want more??? or just stating CR (and RR and ScR) will be king The CR was nerfed an entire 3-5% more than the other rifles. That makes no difference whatsoever. And, as shown quite effectively by the OP, it remains the best option, especially with the upcoming proficiency changes and the greater importance of favourable damage profiles, of which the CR has the best. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8803	Posted - 2014.03.24 23:08:00 - [22] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Orin the Freak wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Emperor1349 wrote: How much DPS if you miss a burst? Same as SCR if you miss a shot or two what's the stats look like vs fully auto. You guys got your ******** long TTK back, give it a rest. If we're factoring in misses, that hurts the CR the least as it has the highest RoF of all these weapons. And it would still have by far the best damage output. highest RoF... in 3 round bursts. as I stated in my previous post, a miss with the CR is 3x more ammo than the other rifles. Which means one miss takes you 3 rounds closer to having to reload than the other guy. and as we all know, reloads in the middle of a firefight are deadly. Why does a miss with one bullet of a burst mean you miss with the rest of it? It doesn't. It is entirely possible, and in fact quite likely that you will miss sometimes with one bullet of a burst and hit with another. The net effect is you have a very high RoF. It doesn't function any differently overall. Indeed half the value of high RoF weapons is that they are forgiving in that you might miss with 1 bullet but are putting enough down range to ensure hits on the rest. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 1893	Posted - 2014.03.24 23:09:00 - [23] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: I would be happy if they just made it +5/-5 instead of the +5/-10 BS it is now. There is no reason for it to be the way it is now. I think it should be -20 shields +20 armor to match the ScR, but that's just me.
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3621	Posted - 2014.03.24 23:09:00 - [24] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Well his statement about the lag is based on experience. Any CR user knows what he is talking about. On the OP - CR got the biggest nerf and you still want more??? or just stating CR (and RR and ScR) will be king Dude WTF more do you want!? I sat there a spouted nothing that can be disputed, they are numerical values. I said "It may appear that CR got nerfed harder" but it's still hands down the only option on the table all others considered. It does -5% to shields and +10% to armor? That's less penalty than an RR yet the same armor +%? It has highest Accuracy rating of all the rifles at any tier. You can't balance on lag either I've said that about speed tanking too. 68 inches above sea level...
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 266	Posted - 2014.03.24 23:14:00 - [25] - Quote It did get nerf harder ie a bigger reduction to damage - you are just saying its still out ahead Also RR and ScR have range on their side to deliver their damage - Yes AR have an issue because they arent doing enough damage. I have always said AR's (even though I dont use them) should get more damage but steeper fall off damage "Shine bright like a diamond"
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11682	Posted - 2014.03.24 23:15:00 - [26] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: It did get nerf harder ie a bigger reduction to damage - you are just saying its still out ahead Also RR and ScR have range on their side to deliver their damage - Yes AR have an issue because they arent doing enough damage. I have always said AR's (even though I dont use them) should get more damage but steeper fall off damage The 'larger nerf' ranges from 3-5%. That's insignificant, especially looking at the statistics. Bojo is saying it's out ahead because it is out ahead. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 2358	Posted - 2014.03.24 23:18:00 - [27] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: I would be happy if they just made it +5/-5 instead of the +5/-10 BS it is now. There is no reason for it to be the way it is now. I think it should be -20 shields +20 armor to match the ScR, but that's just me. Well, we already have explosive weapons for that. Fizzer94 // Forum Warrior Operation II // MAG Vet Gallente Neutron Rifle
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3621	Posted - 2014.03.24 23:19:00 - [28] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Joel II X wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: I would be happy if they just made it +5/-5 instead of the +5/-10 BS it is now. There is no reason for it to be the way it is now. I think it should be -20 shields +20 armor to match the ScR, but that's just me. Well, we already have explosive weapons for that. Was about to say..... 68 inches above sea level...
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 267	Posted - 2014.03.24 23:22:00 - [29] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Master Smurf wrote: It did get nerf harder ie a bigger reduction to damage - you are just saying its still out ahead Also RR and ScR have range on their side to deliver their damage - Yes AR have an issue because they arent doing enough damage. I have always said AR's (even though I dont use them) should get more damage but steeper fall off damage The 'larger nerf' ranges from 3-5%. That's insignificant, especially looking at the statistics. Bojo is saying it's out ahead because it is out ahead. Which I didnt dispute Anyways keep up the QQ "Shine bright like a diamond"
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8804	Posted - 2014.03.24 23:23:00 - [30] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Master Smurf wrote: It did get nerf harder ie a bigger reduction to damage - you are just saying its still out ahead Also RR and ScR have range on their side to deliver their damage - Yes AR have an issue because they arent doing enough damage. I have always said AR's (even though I dont use them) should get more damage but steeper fall off damage The 'larger nerf' ranges from 3-5%. That's insignificant, especially looking at the statistics. Bojo is saying it's out ahead because it is out ahead. Which I didnt dispute Anyways keep up the QQ There's a distinction between QQ and actually being able to cite and prove something. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two



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