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SgtDoughnut Red Star Jr. EoN. 444	Posted - 2014.03.09 04:33:00 - [31] - Quote Bamm's solution would fix quite a few problems, makes more sense (why do we just die if we go into the bad red area?) and fits in more with the whole universe of eve. Hell have the MCC shoot the shield generator into the ground at the beginning of each match.
RemingtonBeaver Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 180	Posted - 2014.03.09 05:20:00 - [32] - Quote Judge's solution was well researched, thought out, and helps balance the game. Why would it be bad? I've yet to see a reason. Red line rail tankers try to convince people that they are the only thing keeping ADS pilots at bay which is just nonsense. We can pickle that.
8213 Capital Acquisitions LLC Renegade Alliance 1690	Posted - 2014.03.09 06:16:00 - [33] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: CamClarke wrote: Judge's railgun TTK video says everything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTu_98jR8yI&index=2&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ lol Hovering? Check No hardener on? Check Easy target? Check No movement after 1st hit? Check Substandard vehicle fit? Check Yea that was some pretty bad flying there im really not suprised he got shot down in a subpar vehicle Not aware of the field? Check Fish in a bucket! Darken's Testament SKIPPY
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 7249	Posted - 2014.03.09 06:24:00 - [34] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: CamClarke wrote: Judge's railgun TTK video says everything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTu_98jR8yI&index=2&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ lol Hovering? Check No hardener on? Check Easy target? Check No movement after 1st hit? Check Substandard vehicle fit? Check Yea that was some pretty bad flying there im really not suprised he got shot down in a subpar vehicle Hmm... I distinctly remember seeing you in the scoreboard, so I brought out my rail tank. You were in a dropship, and I did the same thing to you. Went 1/1 that match. Silly Taka, being a forum warrior as usual. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. DUST514514
Mobius Wyvern Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 4711	Posted - 2014.03.09 06:29:00 - [35] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: CamClarke wrote: Judge's railgun TTK video says everything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTu_98jR8yI&index=2&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ lol Hovering? Check No hardener on? Check Easy target? Check No movement after 1st hit? Check Substandard vehicle fit? Check Yea that was some pretty bad flying there im really not suprised he got shot down in a subpar vehicle Hmm... I distinctly remember seeing you in the scoreboard, so I brought out my rail tank. You were in a dropship, and I did the same thing to you. Went 1/1 that match. Silly Taka, being a forum warrior as usual. Badposter status: wrecked. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
BAMM HAVOC Carbon 7 CRONOS. 278	Posted - 2014.03.09 12:10:00 - [36] - Quote many lolz had, while reading this thread thank you all for brightening my day its not simply "Jugde Rhadamanthus Vs Myself"... Mr Judge took about 2-3 weeks to put that video together and it shows in the quality, duration, information and opinions expressed in it, I just offer an alternative to the NERF hammer and I ask all of you to do the same . Here is my original thread on the subject take alook here and here is my support for Red Line Rail Tank, another gripping discussion on this subject, I urge you all to watch this and most importantly please send all your Tanker buddies and tanker corp mates here they WILL learn something Red Line Rail Tank Pro Tips Support The DUST514 TREEEEEEESSS
Obodiah Garro Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 805	Posted - 2014.03.09 12:34:00 - [37] - Quote Definately side with Bamm somewhat. Judge just missed the point too damn much, also at around 11ms in his demo, his railtank fails to hit the DS because its out of range He makes a lovely and clear presentation but the fact is, a railtank have 45 degrees elevation only becomes effective the further out you are, hence why at the map edge (redline) you will be able to have a pretty damn clear shot of the sky. Problem isnt really that its DS pilot skill, if they are indeed doing their intended job of ferrying troops, they can quickly climb to altitude, halo drop their cargo and GTFO for either a recall or just circle the engagement area with a mobile CRU and keep the partying going. Sorry but if you got your DS flying under 100m and a rail tank manages to lance you? Yea kinda your problem. ADS can be fitted with huge tanks, they can take 3-4 particle cannon rounds and keep in the air, they can jink like mofos so again, if your getting hit you should probably skill up a little and try again. Lastly, half a rail HAV job is too keep DS under control to prevent quick enemy deployment and all around nice guy keeping enemy armor/installations/assets if if you in check. Nemo me impune lacessit
VonSpliff TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 74	Posted - 2014.03.09 13:25:00 - [38] - Quote Easy and simple tear free fix. Smaller red line that can not be shot out/in to or be entered/re-entered. Meaning the red line needs to be in a tighter formation around drop points. And NO ONE can shoot in or out of. Once you leave the red you can no longer re enter it. No one is safe! Well I guess ***** snipers might have a tear. "It never got weird enough for me." Dr. T
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1755	Posted - 2014.03.09 14:42:00 - [39] - Quote Judge gave a great presentation of facts and subsequent analysis for us to start reasoning from. Bamm gave us a 'softer' solution that avoids physically nerfing tanks or their turrets. Imo, Bamm's solution sticks a little closer to the New Eden way of doing things. I would like to propose an even softer mechanic which could be used alone or in conjunction with solutions like Judge's or Bamm's. Team Centre-of-mass and the Redline It's a simple idea. First the game calculates and tracks the COM(center-of-mass) for your team. The game them checks to see if your team's COM is behind the redline. If team COM is behind the redline, WP and sp are accrued as normal. This would be the situation at match start or if your team was getting pushed back into the redline. If team COM is in front of the redline, then no Warpoints of Skillpoints are accrued in the redline. This includes the 1 skllpoint per second passive sp gain. With the game keeping track of COM you could do other things, like bonus a team for fighting out of the redline. It would also be easy to do something more sophisticated than abruptly switching WP/SP on or off - e.g. WP/SP are derated for mercs in the redline by 'distance of COM from redline', so the further away the fight the less reward the redlind campers get. To me the attraction of this mechanic is that it's very New Eden: it doesn't stop players using the redline tactically if they feel the situation calls for it, but they will be sacrificing WP & skillpoints when they do. On the other hand, it still rewards players trying to continue the fight even after they've been redlined. I support SP rollover.
pyramidhead 420 Carbon 7 CRONOS. 339	Posted - 2014.03.09 15:00:00 - [40] - Quote anyone in this thread needs to first, go shoot down judge with a forge gun and or railtank. then return to thread and give your "new" opinion. the videos are pretty and all. and he does sound like jesus himself, explaining how new eden should be balanced, but in the end, its all just boo hoo, "my 500k ds died"

Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2882	Posted - 2014.03.09 15:12:00 - [41] - Quote pyramidhead 420 wrote: anyone in this thread needs to first, go shoot down judge with a forge gun and or railtank. then return to thread and give your "new" opinion. the videos are pretty and all. and he does sound like jesus himself, explaining how new eden should be balanced, but in the end, its all just boo hoo, "my 500k ds died" Thats the problem Alot of us have done this, its why judge makes these videos and asks for nerfs Intelligence is OP
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1242	Posted - 2014.03.09 15:14:00 - [42] - Quote Solution to rails: revert stats to 1.6 of the compressed variants. Rails needed only one buff going into 1.7, and that was the render fix. Also, make it so that railguns behave like the breach forge gun, where you become immobilized while charging or firing. Rails should NOT be CQC kings; immobilizing them will allow other CQC tanks to outmaneuver them if they choose to fight back, otherwise they become easy kills as they try to run away without being able to shoot back. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
JP Acuna Pendejitos Canis Eliminatus Operatives 94	Posted - 2014.03.09 15:17:00 - [43] - Quote Judge wins in every scenario. Railgun tanks are OP even against blaster tanks.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2882	Posted - 2014.03.09 15:18:00 - [44] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Solution to rails: revert stats to 1.6 of the compressed variants. Rails needed only one buff going into 1.7, and that was the render fix. Also, make it so that railguns behave like the breach forge gun, where you become immobilized while charging or firing. Rails should NOT be CQC kings; immobilizing them will allow other CQC tanks to outmaneuver them if they choose to fight back, otherwise they become easy kills as they try to run away without being able to shoot back. For that to work the turret turning speed skill needs to work Also with your idea would you be allowed to turn the tank on the spot? Intelligence is OP
JP Acuna Pendejitos Canis Eliminatus Operatives 94	Posted - 2014.03.09 15:18:00 - [45] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Solution to rails: revert stats to 1.6 of the compressed variants. Rails needed only one buff going into 1.7, and that was the render fix. Also, make it so that railguns behave like the breach forge gun, where you become immobilized while charging or firing. Rails should NOT be CQC kings; immobilizing them will allow other CQC tanks to outmaneuver them if they choose to fight back, otherwise they become easy kills as they try to run away without being able to shoot back. Great suggestion!
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1243	Posted - 2014.03.09 15:23:00 - [46] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Harpyja wrote: Solution to rails: revert stats to 1.6 of the compressed variants. Rails needed only one buff going into 1.7, and that was the render fix. Also, make it so that railguns behave like the breach forge gun, where you become immobilized while charging or firing. Rails should NOT be CQC kings; immobilizing them will allow other CQC tanks to outmaneuver them if they choose to fight back, otherwise they become easy kills as they try to run away without being able to shoot back. For that to work the turret turning speed skill needs to work Also with your idea would you be allowed to turn the tank on the spot? Immobilization=treads are locked, so the only movement which will be allowed is the turret itself. Since railguns are meant for ranged engagements, you sit still anyways so this will not affect ranged combat, while discouraging use in CQC. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2882	Posted - 2014.03.09 15:24:00 - [47] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Harpyja wrote: Solution to rails: revert stats to 1.6 of the compressed variants. Rails needed only one buff going into 1.7, and that was the render fix. Also, make it so that railguns behave like the breach forge gun, where you become immobilized while charging or firing. Rails should NOT be CQC kings; immobilizing them will allow other CQC tanks to outmaneuver them if they choose to fight back, otherwise they become easy kills as they try to run away without being able to shoot back. For that to work the turret turning speed skill needs to work Also with your idea would you be allowed to turn the tank on the spot? Immobilization=treads are locked, so the only movement which will be allowed is the turret itself. Since railguns are meant for ranged engagements, you sit still anyways so this will not affect ranged combat, while discouraging use in CQC. Hm not bad Intelligence is OP
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1574	Posted - 2014.03.09 15:24:00 - [48] - Quote Some troll or other wrote: ....its why judge makes these videos and asks for nerfs Had I never been shot down I would be looking for buffs. Like my request to have swarms buffed which I mentioned here. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 17	Posted - 2014.03.09 15:43:00 - [49] - Quote I think the problem is mostly the redline. I like BAMM's idea but am not convinced it would really give people an opportunity to fight back from being redlined. I know there isn't much you can do at the moment but you can at least shoot some people from cover or call in some vehicles to escape the redline. The best solution I feel would be to adjust the maps and the position of the redline so that it is impossible to shoot into the main part of the map whilst remaining close enough to the redline to escape into it. I think that rail tanks and dropships should be able to counter each other as follows. Rails vs Dropships: Railguns are anti heavy vehicle weapons. I think the power and range they have now are good for taking on other tanks and I like that dynamic. A dropship is a medium vehicle and I am trying to think of balance whilst keeping in mind that we should expect to see medium ground vehicles and heavy air vehicles in the future. I think dropships need to be as vulnerable to rail tanks as they are now to keep them balanced with other vehicles. Compare a dropship to a blaster tank. The tank has greater protection against rail tanks and is more capable of fighting back (remembering that dropships can carry small rails and be quite effective at av). A dropship is also more vulnerable to AV. However a dropship has: More speed. Can transport troops. Can give troops elevation. Is far more difficult for infantry to avoid thus making it much more dangerous to infantry. I think this balance is correct. Both medium vehicles and airborne vehicles should have more tactical capability than heavy and ground based vehicles but be more vulnerable. A dropship should therefore be very vulnerable to rail tanks when engaged in fighting/close to the ground to balance their other capabilities. Dropships vs rails: I think it would be awesome if dropships could fly over tanks and be a serious threat to them, this includes rail tanks. This is where changes to the redline come in (and possible rail elevation). TL/DR: Just change the redline so dropships can fly over to rail sniping tanks and give them a good fight and everything will be gravy.
Alpha 443-6732 General Tso's Alliance 350	Posted - 2014.03.09 17:47:00 - [50] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Solution to rails: revert stats to 1.6 of the compressed variants. Rails needed only one buff going into 1.7, and that was the render fix. Also, make it so that railguns behave like the breach forge gun, where you become immobilized while charging or firing. Rails should NOT be CQC kings; immobilizing them will allow other CQC tanks to outmaneuver them if they choose to fight back, otherwise they become easy kills as they try to run away without being able to shoot back. bang on with that suggestion, I totally agree

Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1910	Posted - 2014.03.09 17:50:00 - [51] - Quote Jeez, what's with the rail hate? Don't like 'em, go to Call of Duty. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Foundation Seldon Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 505	Posted - 2014.03.09 18:13:00 - [52] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Jeez, what's with the rail hate? Don't like 'em, go to Call of Duty. If you don't like how a single turret type in the game is balanced against other turrets and vehicles in the game and have legitimate reasons as to why it should be changed ... quit and play a game without vehicles. I can tell why you and Taka are friends, you two are a tag team of impeccable logic. Saga v. Methana Balance
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1250	Posted - 2014.03.09 19:28:00 - [53] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Jeez, what's with the rail hate? Don't like 'em, go to Call of Duty. You just refuse to realize that rails are OP, don't you? "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1912	Posted - 2014.03.09 19:30:00 - [54] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Jeez, what's with the rail hate? Don't like 'em, go to Call of Duty. You just refuse to realize that rails are OP, don't you? They're not. Mine screws up all the time. And I only hate those that hide in the redline. I'm in the thick of things with my railgun. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1250	Posted - 2014.03.09 19:36:00 - [55] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Harpyja wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Jeez, what's with the rail hate? Don't like 'em, go to Call of Duty. You just refuse to realize that rails are OP, don't you? They're not. Mine screws up all the time. And I only hate those that hide in the redline. I'm in the thick of things with my railgun. And by that, you mean using your broken weapon to win vehicle engagements in CQC where only another railgun can beat you? Please, railguns are meant to be ranged. I hate those that both sit on their redlines and use their railguns in CQC; I have no quarrel with those that sit on the sidelines using range, as long as I have the opportunity to ambush them with my missile tank (so, not near the redline). "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Lanius Pulvis Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 164	Posted - 2014.03.09 20:28:00 - [56] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: CamClarke wrote: Judge's railgun TTK video says everything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTu_98jR8yI&index=2&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ lol Hovering? Check No hardener on? Check Easy target? Check No movement after 1st hit? Check Substandard vehicle fit? Check Yea that was some pretty bad flying there im really not suprised he got shot down in a subpar vehicle Right, so 3000 damage in the amount of time it takes to activate 1 hardener isn't an issue?.... You're a tanker aren't you... Edit: have you ever gotten hit by a rail in a dropship, he didn't have time to move, the kinetic effect has to be recovered from first. Especially if you're low enough to see and shoot your targets. Not new, just new to you.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2891	Posted - 2014.03.09 21:02:00 - [57] - Quote Lanius Pulvis wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: CamClarke wrote: Judge's railgun TTK video says everything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTu_98jR8yI&index=2&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ lol Hovering? Check No hardener on? Check Easy target? Check No movement after 1st hit? Check Substandard vehicle fit? Check Yea that was some pretty bad flying there im really not suprised he got shot down in a subpar vehicle Right, so 3000 damage in the amount of time it takes to activate 1 hardener isn't an issue?.... You're a tanker aren't you... Edit: have you ever gotten hit by a rail in a dropship, he didn't have time to move, the kinetic effect has to be recovered from first. Especially if you're low enough to see and shoot your targets. Have access to all DS Generally if your not moving about and are going to be staionary at least have one hardener on, its common sense you are a stationary target where anything can hit you and currently its rail tanks with 2 dmg mods or even a cheeky FG shot, that hardener can help you take upto 3 shots or at least 2 and if your not reacting by the 2nd shot then what you expect when you get shot down If you use an ADS is even easier to get out of the way, try using a normal DS its like flying a brick Intelligence is OP
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 1965	Posted - 2014.03.09 21:54:00 - [58] - Quote Zirzo Valcyn wrote: darkiller240 wrote: so wait Bamm likes the OP FOTM wile Judge wants a balanced game hmmm troll thread ? :/ the railtank is a hard counter to DS, if that gets nerfed then DS gets OP, a new weapon will have to be buffed to deal with that, making something else OP, a new pandoras box gets opened. the redline is the issue. DS...OP? Those two word will never exist. The only way for a DS to be OP would be for the camera to work for shooting down, and for hovering to work. And we all know those aren't never going to work. Because you Wanted to be Something your Not.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 818	Posted - 2014.03.09 22:37:00 - [59] - Quote Judge, hands down. Bamm has an interesting idea, but the problem with railtanks and dropships is that they can look up so high that dropships have nowhere to hide. The other issue is that a 0SP 58k ISK militia tank can one shot nearly any dropship, regardless of fitting. Judge's suggestions allow railtanks to engage dropships at heights where the dropship is still useful. Once the dropship is out of range of the railgun, he is also out of range of being helpful to the team. Best PVE idea I've seen.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1759	Posted - 2014.03.10 14:34:00 - [60] - Quote Bumping - we need to keep talking about redline related issues this until we find (a) solution(s). There was a lot of content in Judge's video - the most important of his conclusions, imo, is the idea that tanks/dropships/AV cannot be balanced by playing just with damage/EHP/resists. We need to look at other variables, like turret elevation or the immobility mechanic proposed in this thread. I think in the case of the redline, the solution is prolly gonna come from outside the box and may very well involve changes to more that one game mechanic. But the first variable to look at is always player motivations and the associated risk/reward. I support SP rollover.



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