My idea is to make a wall similar to the mcc. Things pass through but things don't shoot out.

I mean it already exists in the game

No damage from your own redline and no time based SP gain (bullsh*t anyway) while in the red line or MCC Period Dot

PS no damn WP for blowing up unhacked installations.

I propose a new installation: The merc launcher. It allows you to fire one merc from your redline to somewhere on the battlefield. 2 minute cool down and only works when your team has 0 points capped. Warning: If the "ammo" fails to deploy inertia dampener...splat!

PS I wrote that jokingly but it's actually a kinda cool idea...remember the launchers in MGS 4 to get them on the ship? We are 20000 years past that...easy tech!

I think 1.8 will hurt redline snipers enough, as for rail tanks... remove them from the game.

redline shenanigans are a map design issue.

All newer maps limit the ability to score kills across large tracts of the map from the redline.


Newer sockets also prevent alot of sniping from great distance.


old maps come from a different design principal, and allow for redline sniping to encourage the sniper rifles use.... read: the maps from beta days.

Well, it isnt exactly fun when you get sniped by an objective once you start hacking it and the enemy is either Rail Gun Tanking or just a regular joe schmo sniper shoots you because he decides he should camp it to get some free money/kill from you. It's not balanced what-so-ever and should in that sense have a strong impact to it: Causality. You snipe in redline, you get punished for taking the easy route.

I do like the SP idea, that's a good one.The No damage might be a bit extreme, because whats going to happen if your team get's pushed back ALL THE WAY. And you cant break out of it because your weapons don't do any damage?

So an idea came up awhile back someone proposed about ending redline matches early...they are given like a 2 minute timer or something negotiable in which to contest an objective or the match ends assuming you have already obtained some value of MCC lead.

I can't remember exactly but that was the gist of it...if you've capped all points for a cetain amount of time it enters into a countdown for you to do something or else forfeit.

Understood, but at the same time it would just make sense to have it where they can at least have the option to do that, if they choose so. It was more a use of balance that allows them to do that but punishes them for staying in there for too long. Passively kicks them out so they HAVE to fight, to gain money.

Hey, good on you for coming up with new ideas for the red line but ultimately I feel the red line needs to be reworked. Obviously total removal is probably out of the question but really all it would take is re-factoring the red line so that no area in the red line gives people a clear line of site over the whole map.

I dont mind being sniped, I dont mind being rail gunned by a rail tank, I just hate the fact that there is NO possible way for me to attack them when they are in the red line or so far back that nothing can be done.

While that maybe true about re-working the map layouts, it can also be daunting for some Snipers because that ALMOST forces them to be an "In-field Sniper" where your more so inside the battle and not so much behind enemy lines. But again I feel that you can still be effective IF, they have it where if your in the Red-Line a good percentage (fair) of Damage is taken off the weapon. If you so choose to stay behind and farm, these are the consequences of those actions. Almost a slap in the wrist for not "Playing Fair".

it would be nice but the shield would have to work both ways one thing i hate is calling a vehicle n before it even hits the grounds its gone. i think its better that way so if your teams redlined you have a chance to make an all out push with your squad at least and would prevent tanks from camping redline

Interesting, like you say though this will only be at best a 'slap on the wrists'. This will not however fix issues we have with red line tanks.

I honestly believe the red lines / maps need to be adjusted. I am very sceptical of any "slap on the wrist" type changes as ultimately - it still does not give us players any way to attack said red liners :(

It most definitely will, because the higher your damage output is on that tank or installation, the weaker your shots will be, this forces you to work cooperatively as a team to push out together.

However this will not be the case, at least in regards to red line rail tanks VS dropships. The red line tanks will still sit in the red line, even if there damage drops to 50% - they still have the ability to kill dropships. They will still have the ability to knock the drop ship all over the place. They will still have the ability to deny a dropship huge areas of the map and there will still be no way to get to them to destroy them (Or at least attack them).

Granted I am now thinking in terms of Railtank VS ADS. My problem is not that they can kill me in a few shots. That's fine. I just want even ground. If they can shoot me, so too should I be able to shoot them (Given I can close distance on them.)

Not hide behind the red line or far back in some red zone mountain area that I cannot get to without being destroyed by the game timer.

While that is a great way to get people out there it feels almost forced upon. The game is meant to be played and have fun, not feel personally attacked in order to get an objective or kill. I feel from the options thus far that we have mentioned are the beginning stages of slowly getting people out of it because lets face it without ISK you cant get the gear, without enough SP your stuck grinding, Without as much damage your nudged to get out of it and finally without a shroud of purpose; there is no purpose in playing this game. At all.

Pro's and Con's right?

So instead of waiting 10 mins trying to run into the enemy redline to get a kill you could transition to more fun than redline camping quicker.

The reality is if you've achieved a presumptive lead that cannot be overcome unless all objectives are taken...then whats the point in waiting the 10 minutes to prove it when the clock can come online and give the enemy team [insert amount of time here] to do something or move on...what's more fun...trying to redline rail and snipe because you've accepted you can't win...or moving on?

Why bring up sp or gear?

It's quite possible to take out proto's with militia gear as this heavy event has aptly shown. Sure gear makes a difference...but this doesn't make the suggestion any less palatable unless you have more to share?

The purpose of playing this game for me is machiavellian politics, enthralling eve lore, and the hope of a better environment for competitive play...and what we have now in PC in the meantime.

Lightning and other dust elite:

Redline sniping on a scale from 1 to 10 to game improvement is a big ******* 0. Are you really that bothered by one or two snipers sitting in the redline? Snipers already are getting a small nerf due to the nerf to dam mods, and based on current information the amount of heavies post 1.8 will further hurt snipers. You surely can't be worried about a couple redline snipers taking a few pot shots at your 25m SP scout fitting, cry me a damn river. If they are making you mad then grab a SR and pick them off, grab a LAV and run them over, grab a python and shoot them. Hell most maps snipers have such obvious spots that if you get killed you should have a great idea where they are so go get them. Stop crying about useless matters.

This elite community bullshit is hilarious. There are so many serious issues and all you elite spoiled brats are about is a redline sniper, removing the redline cause it prevents you from spawn camping, or that some idiot in a tank is sniping at your ability to dominate the map via drop ships. These aren't issues, the redline isn't a problem or the people hiding in it.

There are a few game problems like frame rate, lag, and other technical issues which shouldn't be occurring with the small number of players currently In a match but that could be due to the choice of running the Unreal Engine.

As for the more pressing issue, its creating a balanced game. But no, I haven't seen the elite community complain about their Proto stomping noobs or how these matches are ruining the game ability to grow. Hell, the majority of the time when the matches are even (elite teams on both sides) one corps decides its better to leave than risk a balanced match.

Stop shinning about redline this or that, truthfully the redline sniper shouldn't be a concern, if it is take care of it. If the redline is preventing you from killing someone its probably because the teams are uneven. A balanced match shouldn't result in a prolonged redline fighting. It solves the remove the redline threads, it solves the QQ about a few snipers hiding there, and hell if the rail gun is nerf' to be on par or at least closer to what it should be this solves the rail gun tanks. Hell if a redline tank is bugging you that must, jihad jeep it once and it won't come back.. (There was a comment about redline having best views, in some maps yes but again if they can see you, you can see them, so go get them).

So elite players, save your tears for something important. Matchmaking balances, technical issues, broken promises, unbalanced weapons, glitches, new player experience, better FPS or EVE integration, a balanced ISK transfer platform. These issues are issues, some more serious than others but redline snipers... You can stfu about them, because most of you elite players have the SP, skill, experience to be able to take 1 min and handle some noob hiding there.

So please save your 4 great ideas to stop redline sniping and use your vast experience playing Dust to pressure CCP into addressing issues that are important and help the game grow.

- Cots

So, I was in the discussion with some friends awhile back on how to properly balance the use of Red Line Snipers in the game and push them out of it....passively. I came up with three (3) idea's that sound balanced:

1.) Small % off damage to weapons. (Meaning if they are sitting back with a fully decked out gear they wouldn't be able to 1-2 shot someone)

2.) Amount of ISK accumulated lessens the longer you stay behind the Red-Line. (You stay in the Red-Line, get a bunch of kills, but unfortunately your ISK amount will significantly drop the longer you stay in there based on a procedural timer.)

3.) Add Defense/Lower damage output inside Redline. (Reason being that it forces you to push together as a team instead of individual gain, unless of course you are cloaked or dampened.

4.) Troop Cannon. (A device that shoots Troops randomly across the mount in different locations to rebuild defenses)

(Updated)



Any thoughts guys?

Thanks to CEO-PYREX for pointing this problem out as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro70YwrLSqI&list=UUvM6TnwjRRqUzoRNocvtO0Q

Your passive aggressive attitude towards me is not appreciated one bit, I have for months (now year) been complaining about the technical aspects of this game and balance issues. But no one seems to care about anything I have said until it happens to them, so I appreciate it if you go back and check the many glitches I have found present in this game, the collision detection's that flutter, phantom effects on dropsuits (especially Scouts). weapons that do not work such as Shotguns (which I have been running religiously), PC matches, etc... Im complaining about Red-Line Sniping because it's not fair AT ALL especially towards new players and your pretty much telling me tomuch evade this topic. Sir, that's a dumb argument, so save your statement for constructive criticism for the game instead of "using it on me".

Are you serious? This game isn't fair at all for new players to begin with.

As a dedicated sniper, there's nothing I enjoy more than when the enemy team gets red lined and attempts to snipe.

I am both confused and amused at how you see this as some overwhelmingly troublesome issue.

Even as the other way around when I'm red lined this is totally fine by me.

Counter-sniping is great fun, especially when the majority of the player base sucks at it. If my team is losing and I cannot leave the red line because I'll be scanned down and hunted by up to 16 enemy players it seems more viable than the alternative. In public matches it's not always about victory either. Even in defeat I take great comfort knowing I cost my enemy a great deal of money. And as I said earlier, it's really easy to get a bunch of kills sniping if you're better than those sniping you back.

It all turns into a mini game of "hide and seek" and "whack a mole" and it's nobody's fault you don't wish to participate or suck at them.

Amount of ISK accumulated lessens the longer you stay behind the Red-Line. (You stay in the Red-Line, get a bunch of kills, but unfortunately your ISK amount will significantly drop the longer you stay in there based on a procedural timer.)

So, I was in the discussion with some friends awhile back on how to properly balance the use of Red Line Snipers in the game and push them out of it....passively. I came up with three (3) idea's that sound balanced:

1.) Small % off damage to weapons. (Meaning if they are sitting back with a fully decked out gear they wouldn't be able to 1-2 shot someone)

2.) Amount of ISK accumulated lessens the longer you stay behind the Red-Line. (You stay in the Red-Line, get a bunch of kills, but unfortunately your ISK amount will significantly drop the longer you stay in there based on a procedural timer.)

3.) Add Defense/Lower damage output inside Redline. (Reason being that it forces you to push together as a team instead of individual gain, unless of course you are cloaked or dampened.

4.) Troop Cannon. (A device that shoots Troops randomly across the mount in different locations to rebuild defenses)

(Updated)



Any thoughts guys?

Thanks to CEO-PYREX for pointing this problem out as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro70YwrLSqI&list=UUvM6TnwjRRqUzoRNocvtO0Q

This topic thus far is about trying to find fair solution to people sitting back and ISK/Kill farming and people who are in the battlefield. And again this is not about you or me, but about NEW players that join this game.

Let me ask YOU something now, have you actually squaded up with new people? Or asked them there take on the state of this game? (War Economy) Judging by your answer you just posted that would be, No. One of the things that I ask when people join R0N1N or when I just squad with regular Joe's (snipers as well) on here is that they complain about people just either sitting back and getting an easy win, people using PROTO on them, map layout being unfair sometimes or a big one they don't start out with enough SP when they start this game. This topic thus far is about trying to find fair solution to people sitting back and ISK/Kill farming and people who are in the battlefield. And again this is not about you or me, but about NEW players that join this game.

I'm sorry to say it, but yeah I do group with randoms all the time. I invite my local, and join random squads because if I'm with an A-Team proto group the matches end too fast for me to farm kills as a sniper. Unless we let the enemy recapture the objective to prolong the fight.

I like this idea a lot. I would take a step further and say that WPs earned in the redline do not count towards your SP payout at the end of the match.

So an idea came up awhile back someone proposed about ending redline matches early...they are given like a 2 minute timer or something negotiable in which to contest an objective or the match ends assuming you have already obtained some value of MCC lead.

I can't remember exactly but that was the gist of it...if you've capped all points for a cetain amount of time it enters into a countdown for you to do something or else forfeit.

This thread needs to die, there is so much stupid in here.

Redline is not a problem. Sniping is not a problem. Snipers are not a problem.

The map design needs to be adjusted so the high points in the game, which snipers naturally gravitate towards, are not in the redline.

This. Just... this.

If there's a high plateau at the edge of the redline, that means that you need to come out of the redline before you can use your high ground advantage to locate targets below, and also avoids the problem of setting up a high ground position near the redline to wall it in.

Otherwise, having WALLS near the redline - like a walled in facility where the walls ARE the redline, would mean that you can't get yourself into a redline sniping position where you can actually get a clear line of fire, you have to move OUT before it's viable to attack, and the walls also mean it's harder for the enemy team to move in and attack you while you're in the redline.

Then let me ask you this, if this is "Not a problem" why is this one of the contributing factors of this game for it's demise? I even hear it FOR MYSELF what blues say. This isn't about me its about making the game balanced for EVERYONE including this player-base, forgive me for actually squading up with people who are starting to lose interest in a game that is UNFAIR. So your okay with people sitting back in PROTO or Rail Tanks making ISK, boosting their KDR, and completely getting drops on people? Easier said then done why don't you go start a new character, face PROTO players and ATTEMPT to make a valid argument.

For the same reason that peer to peer networking isn't the problem with a lot of games people blame that for.

Also known as Wizard's First Rule.

PEOPLE ARE STUPID.

Lots of people believe something is a problem because SOMETHING ELSE is a problem and the two things are related closely enough to cause confusion. One person - and it only takes one - gives a plausible explanation, OR a reason to worry about something, and everyone follows suit. You hear new people complaining about the redline because THEY'VE heard someone else talking about it, and assumed that person knows what they're talking about. Experienced people know what they're talking about, remember?

Like the terrible way the area of the map around the redline is designed causing problems and being blamed on the redline. Or like client-side hit detection and poorly-optimised netcode being blamed on "peer to peer" networking in games that don't even USE that model (pro-tip: online gaming is NEVER peer to peer, player hosted networking is the model people usually mis-label such). In Armored Core: Verdict Day, free battle mode is player hosted, but the main "world mode" play is actually run on the game servers. People still blame "peer to peer" for any lag-related problems when the real issues are a lack of server maintenance and the fact that some fast builds can move faster than the game's ping tolerances can handle.

If they redesign the areas around the redline like I proposed, and like others have proposed in the past, the problem would go away. The redline wouldn't go away, but it wouldn't be a problem, because IT ISN'T THE PROBLEM.