I'm probably a minority here, but I'm ok with heavies and tanks feeling powerful in game. they are supposed to. maybe they will be "too" powerful, we'll see.

Okay, so they're 'meant to be powerful'.

Why use anything else, then? Heavy and tank spam is going to be prevalent in 1.8 simply because it's the most efficient way of stomping pubmatches. As much as assault suits are seen as having been the bourgeoise of Dust for quite some time, why use an assault suit over a heavy?

Scouts have their own role for sure, though.

I'm probably a minority here, but I'm ok with heavies and tanks feeling powerful in game. they are supposed to. maybe they will be "too" powerful, we'll see.

I'm not ok with the stupidly low TTK and the dominance of the "generalist" hitscan bullet hoses though, so I'm pretty ok with the proposed 1.8 changes. I think it will change Dust for the better, and encourage build diversity and improve the importance of teamwork and tactics.

This is a good question, "Why use anything else?" For more than a year now, the answer to that has been "You shouldn't, you should use the AR and go Assault" I'm willing to see how this pans out. I could be wrong, but I bet we still see a majority playing Assault and wielding a hitscan bullet hose as their main weapon, most likely still the AR despite it seeming weaker than the more recent hitscan additions.

Again, I could be wrong, but I'm willing to wait and see if Dust turns the corner and becomes something more than AR* 514.

*AR - meaning high dps, medium to long range effective AA hitscan weapons with no effective downside.

You know, I've just mostly ignored your utter hatred for Rifles and how you post in every thread concerning balance between them; but did you just imply AR wielding Assaults were the most dominant force on the battlefield?

...your joking right? This may be the case for PUBs (As AR and Assault are usually the thing uninformed newbies spec into as they recognize them.) but this is hardly the case in PC. I mean I want the game to be balanced for both PUBs and PC; I dislike it when people ask for everything to be balanced around PC, but seriously! Are you ******* inept?! Assaults don't even have their own niche on the battlefield and anything they can do another suit can do better; this will only grow worse in 1.8. Against my better judgement I'm going to assume you don't PC considering Logis, heavies, tanks, and even dropships are seen more than Assault suits in most matches.

So please, if your gonna spout your anti AR lines, please at least leave suits out of it. (considering ANY suit can equip them.) Speaking of your anti rifle BS; you do realize Rifles are MEANT to be the most used weapons on the battlefield due to their overall effectiveness and flexibility, being outdone by niche weapons in situations that play to said weapons strengths. You can argue this till your blue in the face and dream of a day when rifles are useless and outperformed overall by non-'hitscan' weapons, but I doubt you'll convince anyone that it would be more fun.

Another note; I don't know how recently you've been playing but RRs, CRs, and tanks are the most prevalent things in matches now and you rarely see anyone using the AR outside of blueprints, for cost effective suits, and MLT-ARs that newbies have. Occasionally you'll see die-hard Gal lovers still using the GEK and DUV, but they just can't compete with the other rifles. You can hate rifles all you want but please butt out when people are discussing balance between the newer rifles and the AR. It isn't asking to much for users of the AR to ask for a little balance.

Excuse the rant; didnt mean to derail the thread or anything but I needed to get that out.

First off, it's you're. Secondly, PC is a tiny subset of the playerbase in this game. It is virtually irrelevant. Until PC actually means something, Dust is Pubs. I know you guys hate to hear that, but you're a small minority and, while PC should be taken into consideration, the vast majority of CCP's thoughts needs to be on Pubs, where most players are. Also, yes, in Pubs, the AR has always dominated Dust. Now, it's hitscan bullet hose cousins dominate to some degree, but yet, these weapons have been, and continue to be a problem and OP EZ mode.

Indeed, any suit can equip them, but the mentality from the typical AR user is the same for that of a lot of Assault users as well. Namely myopia that there is more to the game and that there should be more to the game. No weapon built by game devs is supposed to be the most used in game. Otherwise, there's no point in making the rest. You're basing your, uninformed, opinion on real life. That's a sure sign to error when discussing game mechanics. Yes, all weapons in Dust should be niche weapons. The end.

Diversity in equipment, playstyles, game modes, and maps etc are what make the game deep and fun. It's diversity that allows tactics and builds to flourish. Without diversity, Dust is just a generic shooter and may as well shut down now.

Tanks are quite prevalent, true. At least I can get behind the idea that tanks should feel deadly to the infantryman. Bullet hose AA EZ mode hitscan weapons not so much. Truthfully, all of the rifles should have projectile mechanics such that only lasers and rails are hitscan weapons at all. Sure, AR users can ask for balance, I have no problem with that. They do, however, need to get behind the MD users, the laser users, the Plasma Cannon users, the flaylock users, and well, just about everyone else except the RR and CR users. Also, I'm not hating. I'm pointing out the absurdity of it.

The problem with the way CCP operates and iterates is that many threads point out the VERY OBVIOUS flaws with the changes CCP will be making in 1.8 (such as creating Heavy & Tank Spam 514), however, the stat changes in the Dev blog CCP released, and any other changes that will be announced in the patch notes are FINAL upon release of the blog and patch notes.

Even though most of the community clearly sees the **** writing on the wall, CCP has already finalized these changes and we will all have to live for the next 3+ months with the garbage we clearly spotted from miles away.

CCP, release your ideas for patches earlier, and when you do make them open for change and not written in stone. This 1.8 update will create Heavy and Tank Spam 514, numerous people clearly see it now and will be correctly saying and lamenting "I told you so" for many months until the next big update mistake you create.

However you are too stubborn, or dickish, or some awful combination of both to understand your mistakes and fix them, rather than make your customer base live with those mistakes for months or years.

I'm using a pad, you'll have to forgive little typos and punctuation mistakes as autocorrect (or Steve Jobs revenge, as I call it.) can be a bit cruel.

Moving on; I know PC is a subset, thus my "I hate when people want balance to revolve around PC" line. it doesn't change the fact that Assaults are outdone by ever other suit and will become further pointless come 1.8. Just because alot of uninformed newbies, who are the majority of PUB teams, follow the 'Assault with a rifle' mindset doesn't mean the Assault suit is OP. Just because a suit/weapon is used or seen alot doesn't mean it is OP, it can imply many different things most of which can quickly be fixed without an outright nerf. Examples of this would be renaming the AR the Plasma or Blaster rifle so newbies don't automatically associate it with their past FPS experiences, something several people including myself have wanted for a long time.

The insult and overall assumption on your part was uncalled for, but I'll let that be for now

Most weapons are niche already and this game has more depth in it then 99% of other FPS titles; it just needs a bit of refining. While the rifles do function alot like what you would expect in other FPS titles; the different damage profiles, ranges, fittings, and bonuses that affect them wildly influence how they impact the battlefield. With the changes to DMG mods, suits, niche weapons, and Proficiency in 1.8 I think the over effectiveness (notice I didn't use OP) of rifles would have decreased into much more tolerable levels.

Diversity in equipment, playstyles, game modes, and maps do make the game fun; this doesn't mean taking everything that works in other similar titles and saying "Nah we don't wanna copy that other super popular and successful game, let's exclude that because it has it and we wanna be different." Rifles are a staple in FPS titles for many reasons other then "ease of use" albeit that is one of the biggest. Just because most FPS games have rifles being the main focus doesn't mean DUST should just altogether remove them or make rifles weaker and less useful, thereby destroying what makes an AR an AR, but means DUST should approach them differently as it does with the damage profiles and range differences.

I would love weapons to have projectile mechanics, however I don't think lore will lend itself well to that and if it does it might disrupt balance a bit too much as it won't effect all weapons equally; I wouldn't know thus I try not to comment on that point too much. As for your point of getting behind the niche weapon users, I do. Not only because I use the PLC myself but because I love to see skillful players use these weapons in ways most cannot even dream too. Nerfing rifles and buffing other weapons to the point that niche weapons are just an overall better choice over the rifles will detract from this enjoyment however, as it won't just be skilled users that take these situational weapons and reach Rifle levels of effectiveness outside of their niche.

I get why you want rifles nerfed or removed, I just don't agree with it. If I missed anything or you feel I am not understanding a certain point feel free to point it out.

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Fair enough. Sorry about the grammar correction. In the past I have advocated for the name change, and continue to do so. In truth though, the reason the vast majority of players have stayed with the AR is due to it's OPness. If this weren't true, people would have migrated to other weapons, per the FoTM rule, a long, long time ago. The weapon, and it's cousins are currently OP, and do need a nerf.

Most weapons are niche, but not most weapons that are actually used. I think 1.8 goes a long way towards correcting this. In this game, Dust, the rifles are primarily used due to ease of use. Frankly, the addition of strong AA made this situation considerably worse, but even before AA, the bullet hoses were OP. They continue to be EZ mode, which is precisely why, despite more than a year, the vast majority of the playerbase still relies on them. It's because they are better.

Also, they aren't taking everything that's better and making it worse. They're normalizing the game so that all of the diverse weapons have some sort of use. It's because of the near universal hitscan weapon nerf that most players won't even notice the difference. the relative strengths are still similar, and ironically, the AR can be seen as getting a buff in this view.

Also, for the record, I apologize for the insult.

I certainly don't want them removed, other than to say I think hitscan is a lazy way out on the devs part. What I want is for the entire gamut of the weapons to be useful. Currently that's true only if you forget all the weapons except the rifles. Again, I think 1.8 will go a long way towards correcting this. It's also true that changing the weapons over to projectile mechanics wouldn't be an even thing. This is exactly why it would be good though because now CCP could make weapons feel unique by altering projectile speed and drop off. Hell, they could even make a reflective type weapon or something actually interesting instead of this hitscan appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Eh, how do you KNOW its going to be Heavy and Tank Spam?

The heavy spam will counter the tank spam, and the scout spam will silence the heavies, and the Assaults will counter the Scouts, and the tanks will counter the Assaults.

It looks like the Game may have a good meta going.

I'm probably a minority here, but I'm ok with heavies and tanks feeling powerful in game. they are supposed to. maybe they will be "too" powerful, we'll see.

I'm not ok with the stupidly low TTK and the dominance of the "generalist" hitscan bullet hoses though, so I'm pretty ok with the proposed 1.8 changes. I think it will change Dust for the better, and encourage build diversity and improve the importance of teamwork and tactics.

Thats the thing; people did migrate to the other weapons to the point the forum QQ reached an apex, the weapon was nerfed, and they all went back to the old reliable Rifle. That is how the cycle has worked since I joined the game back in closed beta, as most vets will attest.

While I agree AA is a big offender in balance issues (Have it off 100% of the time myself) I still feel the hammer was a bit hard. The fact that the HMG, which is really effective right now even with the rifles current stats, isn't being touched and will retain its DPS despite the heavy suit buff it will be very noticeable especially to med-frames. Also they didn't fix what makes the RR and CR so much better then the Blaster Rifle, so while other fits and weapons will enjoy the now more balanced rifle stats the imbalance between the rifles is still very present. The Blaster Rifle will still barely be competitive the variants however will now be absolute garbage, the Breach most of all.

It would be interesting to see how this would work I agree but balance wise it might turn out to do more harm then good; rail and laser weaponry would outclass its blaster and projectile counterparts by far without serious stat differences in the latter two's favor. Also I'd like all weapons to be viable and used, like the laser rifle which needed a buff, however some weapons didn't need this such as the MD as a smaller buff or even just the Rifle nerf would have worked just fine.

Just as his educated guess that Heavies and Tanks will be the FotM isn't absolute neither is your flawed meta analysis.

Pray tell, how will assaults counter the scouts in a way heavies can't? How will tanks not counter everything else with the laughable state of AV? How will scouts counter heavies and not assaults at the same time?

CCP, release your ideas for patches earlier, and when you do make them open for change and not written in stone.

Yah.

Why not just ask the people you are trying to please?

Serious question.


Munch

Eh, how do you KNOW its going to be Heavy and Tank Spam?

The heavy spam will counter the tank spam, and the scout spam will silence the heavies, and the Assaults will counter the Scouts, and the tanks will counter the Assaults.

It looks like the Game may have a good meta going.

Listen, not to be rude to you in particular, but CCP has spent too much time listening to people on these forums.

Most of the people here can't tell **** from shinola.

Not really. The AR has always been way overused. During the time when the MD was "FoTM" for instance, AR users outnumbered all other weapon users combined if you ignore snipers. MD users weren't even a significant portion of the playerbase. What actually happens, is that players start being killed, occasionally, by other weapons and then ***** that the weapon is OP. Same with the flaylock and laser. At the time of the flaylock issues, it wasn't even the most used sidearm, let alone weapon in general. This has been the case with every "FoTM" weapon to date. The AR users, and now generally hitscan rifle users have always outnumbered the other weapons to the point of completely erasing the prospect of diversity.

Well, it may be the case that compared to the other hitscan bullet hoses, that the AR is the least effective of them, but it's still a significant improvement over anything that isn't a hitscan bullet hose, so I can't be too broken up about a bunch of people complaining that a weapon is garbage when in reality the weapon is middling and only seems garbage because of how OP it was.

The MD does need the buff. See my other comments. The MD is not viable in the current environment. Basically nothing but the hitscan weapons are viable currently. That's why the nerfs all around are a good thing and will help diversity.

In 1v1 scenarios, what he says is true.

Scouts will easily be able to kill a heavy in the long run, as they generally get the first shot, and they can just retreat and regen. Heavies have terrible regen, so a lone heavy is an easy kill for a scout.

Assaults counter scouts by having only slightly worse regen, but still maintaining their mobility, and having more eHP. If a scout gets a sneak attack, he better kill the assault FAST, because assaults are much harder to kill in the long run, and they can chase you through a compound if they have to.

Assaults can't do crap to tanks (even with Swarms and Grenades).

In reality, the heavy is a better counter to assaults. They tear through their suits with an HMG, and their resists make them hard to kill 1v1, or even 2v1. All a good heavy has to do is stick to cover, and they will shred assaults.

My 0.02 ISK on the matter. For all it's worth.

The problem with the way CCP operates and iterates is that many threads point out the VERY OBVIOUS flaws with the changes CCP will be making in 1.8 (such as creating Heavy & Tank Spam 514), however, the stat changes in the Dev blog CCP released, and any other changes that will be announced in the patch notes are FINAL upon release of the blog and patch notes.

Even though most of the community clearly sees the **** writing on the wall, CCP has already finalized these changes and we will all have to live for the next 3+ months with the garbage we clearly spotted from miles away.

CCP, release your ideas for patches earlier, and when you do make them open for change and not written in stone. This 1.8 update will create Heavy and Tank Spam 514, numerous people clearly see it now and will be correctly saying and lamenting "I told you so" for many months until the next big update mistake you create.

However you are too stubborn, or dickish, or some awful combination of both to understand your mistakes and fix them, rather than make your customer base live with those mistakes for months or years.

On this point I'm going to have to disagree, the MD was a special case as it wasn't overly OP and didn't really receive a nerf after its short "FotM". The flaylock however was clearly OP and outdid many of the niche weapons including the MD while even outperforming the AR in some cases. It's fitting cost was far too low for its effectiveness, not to mention the fact that it was a sidearm. You should distance yourself from the idea that AR users just cry when killed by anything other than an AR, as it detracts from your point and makes you just seem to hate the AR and want a nerf out of spite.

so those other three dev blogs that they dropped several weeks ago... what did you think of those? did you read them? did you chime in?