DUST Search - Feedback Please: Assault Role?

Buster Friently wrote:

Hagintora wrote:

Buster Friently wrote:

Hagintora wrote:

I made this suggestion on another thread, but I'll put it here too.

Switch the High/Low slot count of the Logi's and Assaults, and change PG/CPU accordingly. This would keep Logi's combat effective without having them outshine the Assaults. This would also allow Assaults to be more versatile with their fittings, allowing them to tank more if they so choose, or allowing them to utilize other mods without having to sacrifice their survivablity.

I think that this should also be combined with option number 2, by allowing them to carry one more grenade.

As a sidenote: How's that movement/agility chart coming? I'm really looking forward to applying it on my Speed thread.

Sure, just as soon as there's a real logistics role in Dust.

Until then, this just sounds like "Waah, Assault isn't better than everything else, please balance it so that it is."

Well Logi's will still keep their equipment slots, which is kind of their role isn't it? What would you consider to be a "real logistics role"? Assaults haven't been better at anything for a long time, while Logi's continue to dominate (player count wise).

Why is it a bad thing if Assault Suits have more High/Low Slots than Logi's? Why do Logi's need those slots more than Assaults? Would it better if Assaults lost their equipment slot?

God I'm tired so I'm gonna stop the rambling here, but I just don't see how changing the slot layout is going to be anything but beneficial to both roles.

See, that's the problem. NO, equipment slots isn't a role.

There's only one role in Dust right now, and it's pure combat. That's because there is nothing else to do. So, all of the suits in Dust are basically combat suits with slightly different flavors. This is why the arguments about "assault should be better at combat than logistics" really just boils down to "assaults should be better" because there really are no other roles.

For an example of what a real role might mean, see:

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ships:Cruisers:Advanced_Cruisers:Logistics

or:

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Logistics_piloting

For examples.

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Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2137	Posted - 2014.03.06 14:26:00 - [1] - Quote So CCP has said that they are likely going to do a little tuning to logi and assault suits following 1.8. One problem as it exists right now is that the community pretty much just wants to think in terms of JUST tanking and DPS. So this pretty much means you have scouts at one end of the slayer spectrum, with assaults in the middle and logis at the end. Do you want something that is more nimble, you might as well brick tank a scout (in 1.8). Do you want something more tanky? You might as well brick tank a logi because the utility that you gain is nearly always worth the speed you lose (scanning/hacking/equipment/shield delay). So CCP has to figure out what to do with this problem in order to make assaults have a clear and well defined role. So question 1) What do you think should be the clear and unmistakable role of assaults? please give some feeback on this question! - I think what HAS to be done is that we need to be okay with logistics suits being a SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful slayer compared to the assault. One way of doing this is making them less able to avoid damage. They already have lower stamina and regen then assaults. The one way you could make brick logis less effective is to also make their strafing significantly slower so that they wouldn't be good at avoiding rifle fire as much. Around a 10%-15% slower strafe speed would make brick logis much less effective at gun battles.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 283	Posted - 2014.03.06 14:48:00 - [2] - Quote I made this suggestion on another thread, but I'll put it here too. Switch the High/Low slot count of the Logi's and Assaults, and change PG/CPU accordingly. This would keep Logi's combat effective without having them outshine the Assaults. This would also allow Assaults to be more versatile with their fittings, allowing them to tank more if they so choose, or allowing them to utilize other mods without having to sacrifice their survivablity. I think that this should also be combined with option number 2, by allowing them to carry one more grenade. As a sidenote: How's that movement/agility chart coming? I'm really looking forward to applying it on my Speed thread.
Magpie Raven ZionTCD 380	Posted - 2014.03.06 14:54:00 - [3] - Quote I like the intent behind this idea. Assaults and logos need to be clearly defined and different from each other. However im very against your option number 2. Giving assaults bonus damage to heavies would defeat the whole purpose behind giving sentinels damage resistances to light weapons. Besides I don't think it worka like that. Bonuses are attached to weapon types and suits. You can't just give one class a bonus to damage against a role. If it happened it would have to be a bonus to damage in general. Which then bring up the problem that no they just slay everything not just heavies. . This also would decrease the TTK which currently is trying to be reduced. I like your intentions though.
Mortedeamor Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1439	Posted - 2014.03.06 14:55:00 - [4] - Quote oh so nerf the logi more ? no ccp is making assault logi changes in 1.8 just wait a few weeks dude A laser rifle master for life not just for when it becomes popular Long Live the Empress Burn the Heretics
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 284	Posted - 2014.03.06 15:01:00 - [5] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: oh so nerf the logi more ? no ccp is making assault logi changes in 1.8 just wait a few weeks dude I think the intent should be (and I hope CCP has the same idea) to keep Logi's combat effective without having them outshine the Assault Suits when it comes to, y'know, assaulting.
Zirzo Valcyn Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 165	Posted - 2014.03.06 15:42:00 - [6] - Quote "CCP is going to be doing some tuning"... so what's getting nerfed? u can ban the troll out of the forums but u can't ban the forums out of the troll.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2137	Posted - 2014.03.06 15:55:00 - [7] - Quote Hagintora wrote: I made this suggestion on another thread, but I'll put it here too. Switch the High/Low slot count of the Logi's and Assaults, and change PG/CPU accordingly. This would keep Logi's combat effective without having them outshine the Assaults. This would also allow Assaults to be more versatile with their fittings, allowing them to tank more if they so choose, or allowing them to utilize other mods without having to sacrifice their survivablity. I think that this should also be combined with option number 2, by allowing them to carry one more grenade. As a sidenote: How's that movement/agility chart coming? I'm really looking forward to applying it on my Speed thread. I put it here.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1912	Posted - 2014.03.06 16:00:00 - [8] - Quote Hagintora wrote: I made this suggestion on another thread, but I'll put it here too. Switch the High/Low slot count of the Logi's and Assaults, and change PG/CPU accordingly. This would keep Logi's combat effective without having them outshine the Assaults. This would also allow Assaults to be more versatile with their fittings, allowing them to tank more if they so choose, or allowing them to utilize other mods without having to sacrifice their survivablity. I think that this should also be combined with option number 2, by allowing them to carry one more grenade. As a sidenote: How's that movement/agility chart coming? I'm really looking forward to applying it on my Speed thread. Sure, just as soon as there's a real logistics role in Dust. Until then, this just sounds like "Waah, Assault isn't better than everything else, please balance it so that it is."
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2138	Posted - 2014.03.06 16:09:00 - [9] - Quote derp
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 716	Posted - 2014.03.06 16:22:00 - [10] - Quote id like to keep my assault suit in the middle so it can adapt to the many scenarios faced on the field quickly. which is how the lower tiers kinda function currently. its strength should always be versatility. it can be brick tanked. and can be given high damage out put. and it can be given speed. so it can adapt to things that tend to change very quickly. although the other suits are all around better than assault suits they should make the big sacrifices to perform those roles well. as the assault gets to remain in the middle as a jack of all trades for certain situations. dont need to make them as high dps brick tank machines. the versatility is good enough. can fill a few roles to a certain extent. so its suitable for many various tasks. as specialized suits are more specific in a single role. while assault remains to be the main fighting force. so it needs the ability to do various tasks. though specialized suits can do those same things but also have to make major sacrifice in one area to do them better. thats what i think when it comes to assault.

Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 285	Posted - 2014.03.06 16:31:00 - [11] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: Hagintora wrote: I made this suggestion on another thread, but I'll put it here too. Switch the High/Low slot count of the Logi's and Assaults, and change PG/CPU accordingly. This would keep Logi's combat effective without having them outshine the Assaults. This would also allow Assaults to be more versatile with their fittings, allowing them to tank more if they so choose, or allowing them to utilize other mods without having to sacrifice their survivablity. I think that this should also be combined with option number 2, by allowing them to carry one more grenade. As a sidenote: How's that movement/agility chart coming? I'm really looking forward to applying it on my Speed thread. Sure, just as soon as there's a real logistics role in Dust. Until then, this just sounds like "Waah, Assault isn't better than everything else, please balance it so that it is." Well Logi's will still keep their equipment slots, which is kind of their role isn't it? What would you consider to be a "real logistics role"? Assaults haven't been better at anything for a long time, while Logi's continue to dominate (player count wise). Why is it a bad thing if Assault Suits have more High/Low Slots than Logi's? Why do Logi's need those slots more than Assaults? Would it better if Assaults lost their equipment slot? God I'm tired so I'm gonna stop the rambling here, but I just don't see how changing the slot layout is going to be anything but beneficial to both roles.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1979	Posted - 2014.03.06 16:34:00 - [12] - Quote I feel that this is backwards to me Logis should take a lot of damage but not be able to deal as much damage back. While an Assault should take a lot more damage but deal a lot more damage back. Logis are frontline suits just like assaults but we are not meant for combat therefore making us paper thin AND offensively weak makes the suit UP and equally be unable to avoid damage would make us even more UP. Equally making an Assault gank and tank makes it OP. If a logi lost his tank and lost even more speed then the best suit for Logistics work would become a scout not a Logistics. For the Federation!
Charlotte O'Dell Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2013	Posted - 2014.03.06 16:34:00 - [13] - Quote Minmitar should gut bonus to damage mods so with max skill, they do 10% bonus BC their suits suck so bad. Amarr is good. Gallente is good...gal assault with shotgun could be good. Very good. Caldari should get bonus to all shield modules. Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1912	Posted - 2014.03.06 16:39:00 - [14] - Quote Hagintora wrote: Buster Friently wrote: Hagintora wrote: I made this suggestion on another thread, but I'll put it here too. Switch the High/Low slot count of the Logi's and Assaults, and change PG/CPU accordingly. This would keep Logi's combat effective without having them outshine the Assaults. This would also allow Assaults to be more versatile with their fittings, allowing them to tank more if they so choose, or allowing them to utilize other mods without having to sacrifice their survivablity. I think that this should also be combined with option number 2, by allowing them to carry one more grenade. As a sidenote: How's that movement/agility chart coming? I'm really looking forward to applying it on my Speed thread. Sure, just as soon as there's a real logistics role in Dust. Until then, this just sounds like "Waah, Assault isn't better than everything else, please balance it so that it is." Well Logi's will still keep their equipment slots, which is kind of their role isn't it? What would you consider to be a "real logistics role"? Assaults haven't been better at anything for a long time, while Logi's continue to dominate (player count wise). Why is it a bad thing if Assault Suits have more High/Low Slots than Logi's? Why do Logi's need those slots more than Assaults? Would it better if Assaults lost their equipment slot? God I'm tired so I'm gonna stop the rambling here, but I just don't see how changing the slot layout is going to be anything but beneficial to both roles. See, that's the problem. NO, equipment slots isn't a role. There's only one role in Dust right now, and it's pure combat. That's because there is nothing else to do. So, all of the suits in Dust are basically combat suits with slightly different flavors. This is why the arguments about "assault should be better at combat than logistics" really just boils down to "assaults should be better" because there really are no other roles. For an example of what a real role might mean, see: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ships:Cruisers:Advanced_Cruisers:Logistics or: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Logistics_piloting For examples.
Sergamon Draco Rautaleijona Top Men. 344	Posted - 2014.03.06 16:56:00 - [15] - Quote 1.8 future generations will call that "Day when assault came obsolete" Fck the kdr,i`m going in
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2138	Posted - 2014.03.06 17:13:00 - [16] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: Hagintora wrote: Buster Friently wrote: Hagintora wrote: I made this suggestion on another thread, but I'll put it here too. Switch the High/Low slot count of the Logi's and Assaults, and change PG/CPU accordingly. This would keep Logi's combat effective without having them outshine the Assaults. This would also allow Assaults to be more versatile with their fittings, allowing them to tank more if they so choose, or allowing them to utilize other mods without having to sacrifice their survivablity. I think that this should also be combined with option number 2, by allowing them to carry one more grenade. As a sidenote: How's that movement/agility chart coming? I'm really looking forward to applying it on my Speed thread. Sure, just as soon as there's a real logistics role in Dust. Until then, this just sounds like "Waah, Assault isn't better than everything else, please balance it so that it is." Well Logi's will still keep their equipment slots, which is kind of their role isn't it? What would you consider to be a "real logistics role"? Assaults haven't been better at anything for a long time, while Logi's continue to dominate (player count wise). Why is it a bad thing if Assault Suits have more High/Low Slots than Logi's? Why do Logi's need those slots more than Assaults? Would it better if Assaults lost their equipment slot? God I'm tired so I'm gonna stop the rambling here, but I just don't see how changing the slot layout is going to be anything but beneficial to both roles. See, that's the problem. NO, equipment slots isn't a role. There's only one role in Dust right now, and it's pure combat. That's because there is nothing else to do. So, all of the suits in Dust are basically combat suits with slightly different flavors. This is why the arguments about "assault should be better at combat than logistics" really just boils down to "assaults should be better" because there really are no other roles. For an example of what a real role might mean, see: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ships:Cruisers:Advanced_Cruisers:Logistics or: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Logistics_piloting For examples. I think this is a dumb perspective thing. In skirmish/PC all that really matters is hacking points. Your core strategy is hack more points for longer than the other team. To the extent you can do that faster/better than the other team without losing your clones means you will win. Just because you are the best at killing doesn't mean you will always win at skirmish. In a 5 point map, at best your strategy would be "hold 3 points for the majority of the game" That means you would have 5 players at 2 objectives and 6 at a third. The problem becomes a numbers game then. When you limit the other team to two objectives and you turn defensive, they can easily outnumber you at any single objective. That's where uplinks, stamina, scanning, preparedness, coordination, orbital strikes, vehicle mobility and response etc all come in. Just isolating gameplay to 'kill or be killed' is really narrow minded.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 285	Posted - 2014.03.06 17:23:00 - [17] - Quote @Buster Friently: Your examples are exactly what I'm talking about. By switching layouts, and removing the Assaults equipment slot, you automatically define both roles. Assaults will be highly versatile, and quickly adaptable to changing battle conditions, but dependant on Logi's for reps and ammo, not to mention scans. Logi's lose a little bit of their adaptability, but will still maintain their combat effectiveness. The more people you have choose Assault, the greater the need will be for Logi's. It's a win/win.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 329	Posted - 2014.03.06 18:04:00 - [18] - Quote Grant the Assault class a few perks related to revivability. Grant bonus shields and armor when revived. Make the Assault class harder to 'put-down' - we will always be revivable, so we'll jump right back into the line of fire. We'll fill the Assault role with fewer suit losses. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 807	Posted - 2014.03.06 18:07:00 - [19] - Quote I think that the assault suits niche should be to be the most generalist as far as combat goes. By this I mean, they should kind of be the jack of all trades but master of none. The fact they get fitting bonus to all light weapons and sidearms is a good start. I want to see if it really helps them fit better stuff or not. I think they should have a second grenade slot with grenade numbers going down, this means that they could carry 4 of any one type sure, but I would use that to carry 2 types which again makes them more versatile. I think at this moment they are the suit type most built to get around this weapon proficiency change by being able to fit light weapons of 1 damage type and side arm of another and I would like to see that expanded somehow. Most tankers are like sand people. They frighten easily, but will quickly return...and in greater numbers.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1917	Posted - 2014.03.06 18:10:00 - [20] - Quote Hagintora wrote: @Buster Friently: Your examples are exactly what I'm talking about. By switching layouts, and removing the Assaults equipment slot, you automatically define both roles. Assaults will be highly versatile, and quickly adaptable to changing battle conditions, but dependant on Logi's for reps and ammo, not to mention scans. Logi's lose a little bit of their adaptability, but will still maintain their combat effectiveness. The more people you have choose Assault, the greater the need will be for Logi's. It's a win/win. For this to work you'd also have to: Cut the ammunition capacity for rifles/AR/smgs etc to less than half what they are now. Remove most of the supply depots, or allow supply depots to only supply equipment rather than ammunition Reduce shield/armor tanking overall to make Logi's needed during a firefight Add remote armor repping Reduce Assaults ability to scan. Then there might actually be a Logi role.

Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2147	Posted - 2014.03.06 18:11:00 - [21] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Grant the Assault class a few perks related to revivability. Grant bonus shields and armor when revived. Make the Assault class harder to 'put-down' - we will always be revivable, so we'll jump right back into the line of fire. We'll fill the Assault role with fewer suit losses. I really like this idea. +20% shield refill on revive per level.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 287	Posted - 2014.03.07 03:28:00 - [22] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: Hagintora wrote: @Buster Friently: Your examples are exactly what I'm talking about. By switching layouts, and removing the Assaults equipment slot, you automatically define both roles. Assaults will be highly versatile, and quickly adaptable to changing battle conditions, but dependant on Logi's for reps and ammo, not to mention scans. Logi's lose a little bit of their adaptability, but will still maintain their combat effectiveness. The more people you have choose Assault, the greater the need will be for Logi's. It's a win/win. For this to work you'd also have to: Cut the ammunition capacity for rifles/AR/smgs etc to less than half what they are now. Remove most of the supply depots, or allow supply depots to only supply equipment rather than ammunition Reduce shield/armor tanking overall to make Logi's needed during a firefight Add remote armor repping Reduce Assaults ability to scan. Then there might actually be a Logi role. 1. Less than half I feel is a knee jerk reaction, although I agree that ammo should be reduced. 2. Why? Again, I feel this is a knee jerk reaction. With the ammo reduction above, Logi's will be needed to keep teammates on the front line, removing the Supply Depots would be an unnecessary double nerf to everyone. 3. Logi's are needed in firefights right now, or have you not noticed the TTK? 4. I'm not sure what you mean here. Currently we have two armor reppers in the game; Triage Hives and the Rep Tool. Maybe what you're talking about is the Gallente Racial variant? If so I agree, as I would like racial parity for all equipment. 5. Again, why? The passive scan on non-Scouts is already pretty low, and I've already suggested removing the equipment slot for Assaults, making them dependant on Logi's/Scouts for enemy intel, and on Logi's specifically for reps and ammo.


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