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[Recommendation] Overhauling Planetary Conquest Mechanics

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Arnold Sphinx Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 28	Posted - 2014.03.01 19:42:00 - [1] - Quote I've been away from Dust for quite a while now and while playing eve, I was thinking of the POS/POCO mechanics and how they relate to the way PC mechanics work. During my Eve journey, I couldn't help but wonder why our POS's weren't being attacked even though they could be attacked at any point of the day (and for that matter, why the whole region wasn't under constant bombardment). I talked to some people, both pilots and mercs, and we came up with some ideas to resolve the issues about the district locking in PC. This is only one idea out of many, but this is the one that i feel, given the current situation, would fix the district locking immediately. Scrap the reinforcement timers. What I mean by this is make it so that districts don't have to have a scheduled window of attack. In Eve, POS's have reinforcement timers, but only after they have already been taken into armor. Before then, they can get attacked at any point of the day. This makes them vulnerable, but it also makes them something not everyone with a computer and a heartbeat can keep. It makes it so that numbers are taken into account (as in how many players you can field throughout the day) as well as quality of players. And it also makes it so that to reinforce them yourself would be costly and VERY time consuming. Of course the districts don't have to worry about strontium, so I'd actually recommend the current mechanics regarding victories and having more than a certain number of clones (being that you can launch another attack immediately given certain conditions are met), but for the first attacks it would be completely unknowable when you would get attacked (unless you have a successful network of spies). TL:DR PEOPLE JUST SKIP STRAIGHT TO HERE All this being said, I do still think that there should be some warning regarding the first attacks. The way we came up with for an early warning system was something like this: -Have a warning message sent out as the battles are initiated. The message is just like the one we have now, giving a time and date of attack as well as the attackers. -The higher the security status of the system, the more warning you have, not including the time spent in the warbarge. For example, if someone were to attack in a 0.4 sec system, the district would have the battle scheduled for 40 minutes after the attack was declared. The defenders would then have 40 minutes to mobilize and assemble their forces (not including the warbarge time). With each point of system sec lower, you would have 10 minutes less of warning to assemble (0.3 would be 30 minutes warning, 0.2 would be 20, and 0.1 would be 10) until eventually, when null sec districts are introduced, null sec districts get the attack declared message and have only the time in the warbarge to assemble. -Successful attackers would have the same mechanics they do now, being that if they succeed and have a certain number of clones remaining, they immediately initiate another attack. Otherwise, a battle is scheduled for the next day and that district gets no extra clones for that 24 hour period. This is a placeholder mechanic that I feel should be replaced once districts require fuel or resources to function (much like POS's in Eve). -Unsuccessful attackers would have to wait the until the clone generation timer is over to issue another attack on the district (I'm not sure about what kind of mechanic to place for unsuccessful attacker but this one seems to make the most sense) The clones would still get replenished at a certain point of the day, but the attackers can choose whether to attack before, after or even during this period. They can also choose to attack several districts at once, making numbers an issue on both sides. This would bring in another way of fighting known as "blob warfare." At first people with large corps would seem threatening but they only remain so as long as everyone in the blob is not a team-killing-phucktard (spies ftw). This is what i have so far. Feel free to give feedback and ideas based on what I've proposed and if you don't like something I said, just post with what and why that is. There's lots of girls who play Dust 514. Unfortunately, they're almost all of the male variety.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7111	Posted - 2014.03.01 20:06:00 - [2] - Quote This can definitely work well along with getting rid of the Genolution Clone Pack refund which seems to be the general consensus among people who know PC mechanics. One of the things I hated about the current reinforcement timer for districts is that the 24hour lock time has whenever it's attacked makes it far too easy for one player to simply log in, pay a clone pack, attack their own district with an alt corp, wait 24 hours, rinse and repeat. With the mechanics suggested by Arnold Sphinx, this will make it practically near impossible to lock all districts without making it into a complete 24hour-a-day job where you have to constantly be online locking a district once every hour to an hour and a half. And that's just for one district. Imagine trying to lock all of Molden Heath with the suggested mechanic. And with the Genolution Clone Pack Refund removed, there is no incentive to constantly lock your district for the sake of ISK making which brings me to my next point. Right now, districts just produce clones and the extra clones that can't be stored end up being sold to the Genolution Corp (NPC) for ISK and thus districts become liquid ISK machines. In the short term, we can use Arnold's placeholder idea until the long-term solution is implemented. I agree that district should also act like POSes in terms of managing them. POSes in Eve require fuel to function at all. For the long-term solution, I would say make all districts require fuel of some form to operate so that there is a cost associated with using a district. One can own a district, but using it should require fuel. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Paul Ellinas Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 33	Posted - 2014.03.02 03:39:00 - [3] - Quote The clones should get replenished only if a corporation can hold a district for 24h. It will be a lot of work to hold a district, but this will force corporations to let more mercenaries participate in PC. More corporation will get into PC. Proto fitting players will most of the time be in PC and not stomping pub matches. The idea to let the districts work like the POS's is great. You can go a step further and say that the Planet should work like a solar system. After all districts are taken a 24h timer starts to change sovereignty of the planet. Only if you have the Planet you can change the infrastructure of the districts and get 100% replenished for the clones.
Soraya Xel The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1592	Posted - 2014.03.02 04:45:00 - [4] - Quote As a whole: NO. No matter what corp you are, you need time to mount a defense. You need a day just to let people know when to be on, and then a good hour for form-up/prep. The reason timers exist is because games where the defender never appears is boring, and without advance warning, nobody will ever show up. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Paul Ellinas Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 34	Posted - 2014.03.02 05:01:00 - [5] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: As a whole: NO. No matter what corp you are, you need time to mount a defense. You need a day just to let people know when to be on, and then a good hour for form-up/prep. The reason timers exist is because games where the defender never appears is boring, and without advance warning, nobody will ever show up. The whole point is to get more players in PC. Corporations will be forced to have more mercenaries in PC. 24/7 a 16man team ready for PC. And this only for one district. So more districts will be free to take for corporations who are outside of PC now. This is only manageable with a big corporations or a rich one with ringers. Smaller corporations will be able to raid districts (pirate style).
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7116	Posted - 2014.03.02 07:56:00 - [6] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: As a whole: NO. No matter what corp you are, you need time to mount a defense. You need a day just to let people know when to be on, and then a good hour for form-up/prep. The reason timers exist is because games where the defender never appears is boring, and without advance warning, nobody will ever show up. Still though, the Genolution clone pack refund needs to be eliminated permanently along with getting rid of passive ISK generation. The extra clones produced by these districts should only be sold between corporations and not be sold automatically to the Genolution npc corp. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution 2491	Posted - 2014.03.02 07:59:00 - [7] - Quote This would work if dust had more players. I'm enamored with the idea. CEO of FA B3RT>PFBHz>TP>IMP>FA Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1795	Posted - 2014.03.02 09:06:00 - [8] - Quote Forget it. CCP will not and should not do anything that makes it impossible for small corps to compete. Removing the reinforcement window will only lead to people attacking when district owners are sleeping/at work/whatever. That will only lead to massive corps with good 24/7 coverage with no chance for small corps to compete. CCP has it right, skill > zerging. You can always argue that the reinforcement window should be wider (like 4, 6 or 8 hours for example), but a small corp with only a single timezone coverage will always be able to defend their districts. Winner of the EU Squad Cup & the closed beta Tester's Tournament. Go Go Power Rangers! R.I.P MAG.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7118	Posted - 2014.03.02 09:17:00 - [9] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Forget it. CCP will not and should not do anything that makes it impossible for small corps to compete. Removing the reinforcement window will only lead to people attacking when district owners are sleeping/at work/whatever. That will only lead to massive corps with good 24/7 coverage with no chance for small corps to compete. CCP has it right, skill > zerging. You can always argue that the reinforcement window should be wider (like 4, 6 or 8 hours for example), but a small corp with only a single timezone coverage will always be able to defend their districts. I believe the folks who posted just before you have already established that. The point of this thread if I understand it correctly is to remove the ATM like nature of the districts. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Piraten Hovnoret Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 351	Posted - 2014.03.02 10:33:00 - [10] - Quote No This will only benefit the attacker sense they can plan in a unlimited time before they hit the district. Better way is to have the timer TOTALY random so both attacker and defender don't have a clue when the battle will take place. Also PC needs bigger maps and more players PC should not be a mirror of skirm it should be more. The hole problem with PC is that there is to few controlling to Mutch, if the maps where bigger and the combatant numbers larger then you can't only have 16 ppl controlling the battle and corp growth and numbers will count . Regards War never changes

Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1771	Posted - 2014.03.02 15:09:00 - [11] - Quote This won't get more corps into PC. If the game mode was changed this way Subdreddit wouldn't touch that steaming pile with a 10 foot pole. More accessible? Have you even considered how many people would need to be in a corp, given that corps tend to have memberships that cluster in different regions? Every corp has times of day where there are few people online. So what you're suggesting is that if a corp has members who also have jobs and lives, that they should lose everything they own after most of them go to sleep. I mean look at Dreddit, 1900 members right now and there are good parts of the day where we can't throw more than a dozen guys into a small gang. You know who would own PC in this model? FWARM...and only FWARM. Corps based around different nationalities (since they want to speak their own language) would be completely locked out. Terrible idea is terrible. The only way that this idea of being able to attack an undefended district could work is if it would only let you influence the timing of the battle in a very small way. If that was how it worked, what would even be the point of going into an empty battle? The real problem with PC is that it was a giant chore to start with. Making it an even bigger pain in the backside to own land isn't going to encourage people to jump in.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution 2495	Posted - 2014.03.02 18:31:00 - [12] - Quote Is owning SOV not a chore? CEO of FA B3RT>PFBHz>TP>IMP>FA Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1771	Posted - 2014.03.02 19:54:00 - [13] - Quote Owning SOV in Eve is kind of a chore, but only when people are actually trying to take territory from each other. In those situations it tends to be more of a chore for the attacker than the defender. The real chore in owning space is the reason you take the space to begin with, so that you can farm the moons for isk to fund fleet reimbursements etc. There's a lot of work involved in maintaining the towers that mine the moon goo. I think what we need to do is evolve the economy a little more and introduce resources that districts produce and are useful for making stuff, either in Eve or Dust. Then we could introduce a timerless attack mechanic where you don't take the district if you win, but steal unprotected resources / disrupt the production.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1329	Posted - 2014.03.02 21:08:00 - [14] - Quote Having just spoken with Sphinx about his OP his proposal was intended to start the discussion about how we could make PC more accessible to all corps by removing the locking mechanic that allows corps like Nyian to dominate 25% of Molden Heath (with no possible recourse by the rest of us) and also allow for alternate routes to PC success (ie having a ton of players is now an asset even if they aren't that great). I've been thinking about this for a while now and agree that we need to make some changes to the business as normal, district locking, mentality that many of have gotten stuck in with regards to PC. Sphinx' plan would go a long way to making PC more open and accessible but it really is dependent on corps needing to utilize some resource to slow down attacks (much like how POS and other orbital structures in EvE go into reinforcement mode). Lets take Sphinx' original idea for a minute and play the what if game. Remember, our goal here is to try and propose a new PC system that allows numbers of players to be a replacement for balance but not allow numbers to become the sole factor in PC success while also stopping permanent district locking. 1) Allow initial attacks to happen at any time with a warning email being sent to the attacked corp at (minutes to fight) = (security status * 100) + distance from origin of attack (2 min. per system jump from attack initiator's local or clone generating planet). This would mean that a district in a 0.4 sec system being attacked from the same system would get 40 minutes of warning (0.4 x 100 = 40 minutes) , while a .1 system being attacked with a clone pack that originated 5 jumps away would get a warning 20 min. in advance of the attack (.1 x 100 + 5 x 2 = 20 min.). 1a) This would mean that corps would be constantly vunerable to attack giving corps with large numbers a slight advantage in initial attacks. 2) After the initial attack and loss of clones (the base loss amount would be 150 if no defense was mounted) the district would go into reinforcement mode for a period of time depending how much of a resource was stashed in the district (much like how POS currently work in EvE) thus stopping any clone production/attacks for the duration of the reinforcement timer. The district may be immediately re-attacked up to one hour after its store of the resource has been exhausted (no travel time/security status wait) regardless of weather the attack was successful or not. Corps may, during that 1 hr. timer, resuply the district with the resource but the full 1 hr. cool down on reinforcement mode must go through. A district with none of the resource may be re-attacked repeated with no cool down or stoppage of clone production regardless of a win or a loss by the attackers. 2a) This is an opportunity to increase EvE/Dust interaction. 2aI) The resource in question should be something producible in EvE either through PI or POS reactions with moderate difficulty/time/expense 2aII) The resource should also be able to be produced in dust through specific planetary infrastructure that produces a very small number of clones as well as a small volume of this resource. This would be less efficient than the EvE side production of the resource. 2aIII) By making this resource more cost effective to produce EvE side it would give an advantage to Dust corps that either have an EvE presence or actively trade with EvE players. EvE players would be incentivized to make this trade because of the relatively easy isk they could make from trading with Dust corps. 2b) This timer would give corps the ability to manage when the next possible attack would occur by modifying the amount of this resource stored in their district. 2bI) Imagine you got attacked 23:00 initially and could stock up to 36 hrs. worth of this resource in your district. Since you know the majority of your players are on around 19:00 you would reduce/increase the stores of resource in your district to make it fall out of reinforcement at 19:00. This would allow your corp to rally the troops and field its very best players. At the same time your district would not be producing clones so the other corps initial attack would not be for nothing. 2bII) Since you could be re-attacked right away if you are lacking the resource it is in your best interest to resupply the resource during the 1 hr. cool down time. You might be re-attacked during that time and thus loose a few more clones but you also get some more breathing room. 2c) Since clones are not produced during reinforcement it would be possible for a very persistent corp to bleed a district dry even if an owning corp kept putting the district right back into reinforcement after the 1 hr. cool down window when re- attacks were possible. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1329	Posted - 2014.03.02 21:27:00 - [15] - Quote 2d) This mechanic would allow both large and small corps to have different advantages in PC. Large corps would be more likely able to defend/attack a large number of districts but a small corp of great players could easily hold a small number of districts against a larger foe. The restriction on smaller corps would be how much money they could throw into buying the resources needed for reinforcement as well as the isk needed to refresh their districts clones (delivered via clone pack with travel time to the district based upon the 2 min. per jump from the purchasing player's local). 3) To make having a district even worth it under this mechanic every district would have to produce something that could be sold EvE side in addition to clones. The resources produced should be useful to EvE players and produced in a large enough volume to make a non-attacked district profitable. 3a) Examples of this resource could be small amounts of the resource needed for district reinforcement fuel, large amounts of Tier IV PI materials (These should be produced at a slightly higher rate than EvE PI is capable of making it more cost effective to buy these materials from dust mercs), Sleeper parts (another EvE commodity which is quite valuable) <-- this would depend on players participating in PVE and salvaging the parts from the planetary sleepers they kill <-- low frequency, high difficulty drones, etc... 3aI) Since dust mercs would be making something they could sell on the EvE market they would have more isk to trade with EvE players as for reinforcement resources. 4) District ownership needs to have a large affect on EvE thus encouraging EvE players to have more motivation to join dust corps or invite dust players into their corps. To this end CCP needs to implement space elevators, a concept they said they would be implementing when the game was first being talked about. 4a) Space elevators should provide a zero cost way to get EvE PI materials into space/as well as a means to get EvE resources to a planet at 0 cost. 4b) Corps holding a district with a space elevator should be able set tax rates for corp/alliance/non-alliance use. 4c) All existing EvE PI launch methods would have to have their costs increased to make the space elevator a desirable addition for Eve players. 4d) Space elevator equiped districts should have lower resouce production numbers (clones and the secondary resource) since they are primarily for transporting equipment. 4e) Construciton of a space elevator should require EvE assistance. 4f) Space elevators should be modifable like POS EvE side and allow dust corps to perform reactions to produce chemicals(stimulants or durgs) / do research to produce variants of dust equipment / manufacture dust equipment on a limited scale. Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1329	Posted - 2014.03.02 21:27:00 - [16] - Quote [reserved] Fun > Realism
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1329	Posted - 2014.03.02 21:28:00 - [17] - Quote [reserved] Fun > Realism
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7125	Posted - 2014.03.02 21:46:00 - [18] - Quote @Mobius You put a lot of thought into this, have you? Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1329	Posted - 2014.03.02 22:00:00 - [19] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: @Mobius You put a lot of thought into this, have you? Since PC was so broken for so long, and remains so, I have spent a lot of time playing around with it. Sphinx' post was a great jumping off point. Fun > Realism
X7 lion Swamp Tempo Canis Eliminatus Operatives 129	Posted - 2014.03.02 22:55:00 - [20] - Quote personaly i think there need to be more game to the game mode before the meta should be addressed :D no doubt there are issues to be fixed in the meta though :3 I am death incarnate, you will not see me or hear me. You shall only feel the strike of my blade.

Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1330	Posted - 2014.03.03 00:19:00 - [21] - Quote X7 lion wrote: personaly i think there need to be more game to the game mode before the meta should be addressed :D no doubt there are issues to be fixed in the meta though :3 We aren't talking about meta-gaming here but the actual mechanics of the planetary conquest game mode. Yes there is more meta gaming involved in PC than anyother game mode but it is the mechanics of it that are broken, not the meta. Don't you think that before adding other game modes CCP should master the ones they already have? Fun > Realism
Paul Ellinas Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 36	Posted - 2014.03.03 02:57:00 - [22] - Quote I Really believe the main changes we would like to see in PC are: a) More players in PC and not a small elite. Everyone with proto fittings/ vehicles should find his place in PC. (if the price is to sacrifice small corporation so be it) b)More corporations involved in PC c)More interaction with Eve Removing the timer (or taking him down from 24h to x minutes- 2hours) wil fix a) and b). a)To set timers larger then would mean that the corporations will stay as they are now based on nationality. Not even 10% of the timers are now in EU timezone !!! a)It will force corporations to merge with others and recruit new mercenaries to get them into PC. b)Making it harder to hold a district means, that every corporation will hold only a few districts. This will have as a result that a lot of districts will be defenseless at the beginning and free to take for corporations outside of PC. Alliances and politics will play a bigger role to hold a district. I am open to any idea fixing the issues listen above.
Dalmont Legrand 286	Posted - 2014.03.03 20:52:00 - [23] - Quote This will create EVE type of gameplay. This will make again nights without sleep very fun and unforgettable. The best is yet to come
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 7132	Posted - 2014.03.03 21:05:00 - [24] - Quote Dalmont Legrand wrote: This will create EVE type of gameplay. This will make again nights without sleep very fun and unforgettable. That is the goal. To have fun and unforgettable nights when playing PC. But the mechanics are at the core of the problem we have right now with PC. Eve Online sovereignty mechanics are also designed to allow small corps to compete while still rewarding larger corps with more territory if they have the manpower and meta for it. That's exactly what DUST PC is suppose to achieve. But instead we have small corps holding massive amounts of territory with extremely little effort and making a huge profit without even fighting while the larger corps have dropped out of PC and just stick with either FW or proto stomping. It's also sad that instead fighting over districts nowadays we have corps trading them for ISK like you see plex in Eve. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
Leither Yiltron Ahrendee Mercenaries 849	Posted - 2014.03.03 21:26:00 - [25] - Quote Hey Arnold, it's great to see you around again. Your recommendation is definitely an interesting one, and one that should be seriously considered with any PC overhaul. I've always been a proponent that ideas from other games that work well shouldn't be discarded just because they're from other games. Surprisingly enough it seems like Eve mechanics get derided once in awhile just because they're from Eve. That being said changing the timer, reinforcement, and attack dynamics are all just single aspects of what an overhaul would (or at least should) entail. Planetary Conquest in its current state is fundamentally flawed on an almost comical number of fronts. Not only are the attacking/defending scheduling mechanics broken, but the clone movement, clone packs, incentives to fight, and Eve interaction are also in sad states. Kain and I agree that the current paradigm of district distribution and districts' place as the primary unit of territorial allocation is off. He and I are often at loggerheads over PC issues, so when we agree on something there's no room for doubting that it's an issue. That's not to say that CCP didn't accomplish some major feats with this first implementation of PC. We've learned a lot of things on a design level through experimentation. On the code level the scheduling, ISK rewards, and interaction between battle servers and the world server have been nailed down and hammered out. Those are huge strides forward from "we've gotten nothin'". We also know that, despite the systemic issues, CCP did have quite a few plans to iterate on the current version of PC. Those fell through when Uprising 1.0 struck its mighty blow against Dust's core gameplay. My point is that when considering the state of PC the most effective approach is taking PC as a whole, and not getting too bogged down with how a modification would exactly integrate with the current system. Have a pony
Spartacus Dust The-Legionnaires The CORVOS 168	Posted - 2014.03.04 00:12:00 - [26] - Quote Combining Black Jackal's ideas with a lot of my own. A PC match would look bad ass like this: 1. EVE player launches a small 16 man shuttle onto planet at any point and time of the day, defenders get a notice, the attackers have to go through some sort of progression to fight and turn off the orbital artillery that would prevent the warbarge from coming into orbit. 2. After turning off the orbital artillery, a notice goes to the defenders, and that planet can be attacked via warbarge, ANY WARBARGE (this gets rid of attacking yourself since someone can come in and take your district) 3. If the Defenders win, the Orbital defense comes back online, if they lose the attackers claim the district and orbital defenses come back online. Twitter @Matthew_Dust Candidate for the CPM1 One Universe//One War
Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2990	Posted - 2014.03.04 03:41:00 - [27] - Quote There are any number of ways to remove this locking and the problem of timers. Honestly, what force in the real world gets to dictate when you are allowed to attack them? Isn't that 100% the decision of the attacker? Of course you should get some warning if you have a presence in space or a decent spy network. Parking a warbarge in orbit and sending an MCC into the atmosphere takes time. The defenders should already be on site and in possession of the infrastructure so it's a simple matter of clone jumping in for them. You might give the defenders a small window of protection, say an eight hour block so a corp can safely sleep, but others can still attack at a time suited to them. This current one hour window at 3am precludes any serious attack.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1331	Posted - 2014.03.04 04:09:00 - [28] - Quote Skihids wrote: There are any number of ways to remove this locking and the problem of timers. Honestly, what force in the real world gets to dictate when you are allowed to attack them? Isn't that 100% the decision of the attacker? Of course you should get some warning if you have a presence in space or a decent spy network. Parking a warbarge in orbit and sending an MCC into the atmosphere takes time. The defenders should already be on site and in possession of the infrastructure so it's a simple matter of clone jumping in for them. You might give the defenders a small window of protection, say an eight hour block so a corp can safely sleep, but others can still attack at a time suited to them. This current one hour window at 3am precludes any serious attack. That is a good point. I don't know about 8 hr. window though since it seems like that would result in the districts changing hands too frequently. Corps are only going to be interested in PC if they can hold a distict long enough to make a nice profit off of it. How about changing the mechanic to allow for up to 12 hrs of reinforcement with a 3 hr cool down prior to reactivation. Fun > Realism


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