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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1030
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Posted - 2014.02.21 01:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have been arguing against the numerical 'nerf hammer' being cried for by people all over the forums in relation to Vehicles. Specifically Heavy Attack Vehicles which are 'dominating the field' at the current time.
This has earned me many bad looks, an opinion that I favour HAV and Vehicle Drivers over Infantry. An allegation that is false, misleading, and completely innacurate.
I do believe, however, that a 'quick fix' numerical balance will not solve the inherent problems in Vehicle Vs. Infantry Gameplay, but simply 'patch it' until another change comes along. What I'm campaigning is a more permanent fix which may include a numerical alteration, but not as the be all and end all of the discussion.
First, the Maps MUST be balanced. Currently every map has at least 80% or more coverable by Vehicles. Heavy Attack Vehicles account for 60-70% dependant on the map, with an overlap for Assault Dropships making up the additional coverage. A well-designed map has greater variance in each unit's ability to perform it's job. Open Plains with scattered cover favor Heavy Attack Vehicles. This is where they 'dominate'. A cluttered installation interior, with buildings (interiors included) and gaps too small for a Heavy Attack Vehicle to get through (and fire through effectively) favors the Infantry when combating Heavy Attack Vehicles.
Dropships are capable of three dimensional movement, and thus are greatly desired if maps are designed with steep up and downs, such as cliffs, valleys, and hills that ground units find hard to traverse.
Currently, there is little actual diversity in the overall map. If a Heavy Attack Vehicle cannot get to the point itself, there is alot of open space around each point that they can cover. Effectively covering the point strategically and tactically. Anyone in there is unlikely to be able to get out to support their allies, and reinforcements are unlikely to get in.
Secondly. Infantry need more options to deal with Vehicular Threats. Currently non-Anti-Vehicular Equipped Infantry have a mere handful f options. All involving damage and / or destruction (AV Grenades, Flux Grenades for Shield Tanks, Proximity Explosives, Remote Explosives, and already deployed, but non-replaceable Turret installations).
What is needed is content designed to allow infantry to shape the battlefield to their advantage. Things such as Hedgehogs, Walls, Deployable Turrets, Shield Generators and Gates. Not only would these add greater options to dealing with Vehicles, they would also introduce multi-level theatres.
As an example (I wont say quick, because my examples never are quick):
Quote:Team A in a Skirmish is defending a Point accessible by Northern, Eastern, and Southern routes. They need to free up some forces to move on to the next point, but 3 access ways is alot of ground for 1 or 2 men to cover. So they deploy some defences. The Northern Path is wide enough for a Heavy Attack Vehicle to get in and cover the point (or seriously impact the ability to hold the point) so they lay out 3 strategically placed Hedgehogs. This will slow down Heavy Attack Vehicles who must destroy the Hedgehogs in order to penetrate the defender's position. Each hedgehog has HP equivalent to a Supply Depot, so they are not easy to kill.
The Eastern route is a covered walkway. The soldiers deploy 2 'Cover Shields' to allow 2 people to stand and fire with some easily accessible cover nearby. The third route is he landing platform. Accessible only by air. So they deploy 2 Automated AA Guns to deter aerial assault.
Now you have a point, highly defensible, with the ability to counter the 'most likely' threats from each position. The Northern Route can still be traversed by Infantry and the Eastern Route is heavily Defensible from Infantry. Taking apart these defences would require more than just rocking up in a Heavy Attack Vehicle or Dropship. The two infantry defenders do not need to carry any particular equipment to counter threats (making personal choice once again matter), but would be advised to carry at least 1 repair tool to keep the defences from being destroyed or overrun too easily.
Giving us the options and the tools to counter both lethally and non-lethally Vehicles and / or other threats makes the game far more complex, involved, and allows balance by proxy. Maps, deployable installations, and being able to 'dynamically change' the battle field on the fly make for a much more interesting gameplay experience than a simple numeric balance.
A simple numerical balance right now will not solve the long term issues that having vehicles and infantry on the field at the same time will have. Nor will complex mechanics restricting Heavy Attack Vehicle usage. It's quite simply a case of getting the content to balance tanks, the maps to balance tanks, and not touching the numbers until this is in place.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1032
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Posted - 2014.02.21 15:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bumping to keep it above the 'nerfhammer' requests.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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Aleph Rynedee
Science For Death
64
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Posted - 2014.02.21 16:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'd agree. Here's how I see how HAVs relate to the rock-paper-scissors aspect of Dust (excluding HAV on HAV action):
HAVs are a bowling ball sized rocks.
Infantry/LAVs/DSs are cheap plastic scissors.
AV consists of varying sizes of paper, from the postage stamps that are grenades to the small sheets of forge guns and swarm launchers.
The AV toolset is woefully insufficient as a counter to the power of HAVs, and, as the OP pointed out, all available options currently rely on destruction. Deterrence options would prove useful.
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tander09
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
38
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Posted - 2014.02.22 12:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
SHOOT! My +1 button Broke....
But I shall give you a /sign for this AWESOME IDEA!
AMARRIAN4LYFE!
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
1034
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Posted - 2014.02.22 13:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thankyou for the support!
Keeping these ideas on the forefront on our minds can open up true opportunities for balance, Vs. sole options.
Keep in mind that 'some' of the above would be equipment items (Cover Shields probably being one of course) while things like Hedgehogs would be deployed installations so ANYONE who has invested in purchasing some for their personal reserve of deployables would be able to use them, regardless of equipment.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
1034
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Posted - 2014.02.23 21:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bumping it above the nerfhammer threads again.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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Awry Barux
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
1041
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Posted - 2014.02.23 21:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
On one hand: I 100% agree with your points. On the other hand: A full set of map redesigns and a variety of new equipment is going to take CCP years- literally. For now, a numerical nerfbat is needed, because we shouldn't have to live (or, usually, die) through Tank 514 for that long. When the maps are better and all this new equipment exists, tanks can be returned to their current level of effectiveness. For now, the only tool we have is the hammer, and we're going to nail everything. |
Texs Red
DUST University Ivy League
239
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Posted - 2014.02.23 22:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
+1 Good sir. You have divined the true problem between vehicle/infantry balance. |
maka rax
Space Road Truckers.
15
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Posted - 2014.02.23 22:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bump, this needs to happen...Dust 1.9 should, in my opinion, absolutely be focused on THIS. ONLY.
We need better deployable equipment to shape the terrain, give the players the ability to shape the maps and leave out CCP force feeding us what they 'think' we need. |
Texs Red
DUST University Ivy League
239
|
Posted - 2014.02.23 22:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
maka rax wrote:Bump, this needs to happen...Dust 1.9 should, in my opinion, absolutely be focused on THIS. ONLY.
We need better deployable equipment to shape the terrain, give the players the ability to shape the maps and leave out CCP force feeding us what they 'think' we need.
1.9 would be nice but as Awry already said, it is a lot of work. Honestly it requires a rework of all maps and sockets plus equipment to accompany it. While not a programer myself, I would still find that difficult.
Perhaps part of the problem stems from the fact that CCP eventually wants their maps random/customizable. So on public matches you never fight in quite the same place twice and in PC you can customize what you have for structures. If you consider other games, their maps are very much set in stone. Each one is carefully thought out and balance with portions that allow for a mixture of play styles and benefits, but that is hard to achieve when you also want the ability to free form map design.
Ex: Instead of painting a picture for everyone to enjoy CCP has instead decided to create a jigsaw puzzle that allows the creation of several different pictures. So they must balance each piece so that, by itself, it does not create an imbalance and still fits in with several other pictures while not causing imbalances there either.
I have little envy for CCP decision in map design, however if accomplish will create some of the best game play possible by simple virtue of diversity. |
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
7444
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Posted - 2014.02.23 22:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
I still feel like slight numerical tweaks might be in order in terms of module efficiency...but this solution is more or less what I feel would draw thisgame in the right direction.....and as usual it is Jackal posting it.....
"Just know that though our enemies may only #YOLO, through God's grace we can #YOLF at his side." - Disciple of Kesha
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Kincate
Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation
32
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Posted - 2014.02.23 23:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
A well thought and articulate post +1 to you sir
Also something that I would like to add to this, entering and exiting vehicles. This is something that should change. Specificly it is something that should disrupt you. As in if I am killing your HAV/LAV/Dropship with anything, you jumping out to avoid dyeing shouldnt be as easy as it is, also this would prevent LAVs from making heavys faster than light suits. Basicly some sort of animation that happens should be sufficient. Thoughts? |
Derpty Derp
It's All Gone Derp
34
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Posted - 2014.02.23 23:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Easy fix would be to drop the dps of all turrets, if a rail turret had to take 6 seconds between each blast, a blaster was slowed down to force the tanker to aim at infantry instead of the pray and spray we currently get and missiles limited to only shooting 3 or 4 at a time, with a forced cooldown between, then tanks would have epic battles with each other (taking much longer to actually kill each other, instead of the 1 shoots and chases while the other runs to the redzone.) Meanwhile tanks would still take infantry and dropships, but would require some skill to be involved instead. |
maka rax
Space Road Truckers.
15
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Posted - 2014.02.24 01:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
Texs Red wrote:maka rax wrote:Bump, this needs to happen...Dust 1.9 should, in my opinion, absolutely be focused on THIS. ONLY.
We need better deployable equipment to shape the terrain, give the players the ability to shape the maps and leave out CCP force feeding us what they 'think' we need. 1.9 would be nice but as Awry already said, it is a lot of work. Honestly it requires a rework of all maps and sockets plus equipment to accompany it. While not a programer myself, I would still find that difficult. Perhaps part of the problem stems from the fact that CCP eventually wants their maps random/customizable. So on public matches you never fight in quite the same place twice and in PC you can customize what you have for structures. If you consider other games, their maps are very much set in stone. Each one is carefully thought out and balance with portions that allow for a mixture of play styles and benefits, but that is hard to achieve when you also want the ability to free form map design. Ex: Instead of painting a picture for everyone to enjoy CCP has instead decided to create a jigsaw puzzle that allows the creation of several different pictures. So they must balance each piece so that, by itself, it does not create an imbalance and still fits in with several other pictures while not causing imbalances there either. I have little envy for CCP decision in map design, however if accomplish will create some of the best game play possible by simple virtue of diversity.
As a software engineer I absolutely see the difficulty in allowing player created terrain. On the other hand, a lot of the objects are already in place. For instance, barriers are already in the game (just for an example). The animation of "dropping from the sky" is already in place. And the delivery method already has a frame work (ref. the deployment menu).
Yes, it's an endeavor. If not for 1.9 then 2.0. I'm not unrealistic, just hopeful.
Oh yeah, and BUMP! |
Bradric Banewolf
D3M3NT3D M1NDZ The Umbra Combine
141
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Posted - 2014.02.24 02:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
+1 but awry barux is right. CCP moves like cold butter?! Nerf bat until they square it all away. No ones kd should take this beating while tank 514 goes untouched for the foreseeable future.
"Anybody order chaos?"
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
1040
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 07:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
Loving the discussion in this thread.
Now I'm no expert (yet) in level design. But as above posters have mentioned some of the assets are in already. Hedgehogs are on a couple of maps. Turrets are already on maps. And creating assets is actually fairly easy in the grans scheme of things. (I'm talking the actual creation, not the texturing and implementation.)
The Drop Interface is already in place, as is the animation and system for it. (Ambush OMS). Now the only barrier I may be able to see is that these turrets, though dropping in seemingly at random, are actually socket based, which means no matter what order, or what turret drops in, they will always drop in the same, or a set series of areas.
A passing familiarity with UE3 isn't enough for me to make an educated guess about if this is the way it works or not, but from a design point of view, I can certainly see why they would make it that way. It avoid clipping issues, turrets hanging mid-air in locations inaccessible, as well as a few other issues including manipulation of the hit boxes of various objects to exclude them from being valid 'drop areas'.
Now, I know the 'nerfbat' is the only real tool we have to balance at the moment, but in truth it will only exacerbate the issue further, and put off the development of other assets in the 'Infantry Toolkit' because hey, suddenly people aren't complaining about HAVs blowing apart or being blown apart... job done.
And yes, from a developer's point of view (I've spoken to a couple about above ideas and much more though none directly in CCPs employ) that is how they think. They will not throw more development money at something that seems to be working.
New maps that follow the design philosophy are a secondary concern. I'm sure we'd all love to have it, but getting a deployment system that allows us to break out a toolkit of some kind to counter threats without HAVING to fit weapons of AV Destruction working on our current maps would give us 80% of what we need right now.
It's this kind of thinking I believe we need to get into. Not short term caulking to stop the leaks, but actually laying down new wood in place of the rotting hull. Short term solutions are good, only if you KNOW what is going to happen afterwards, and there's a promise or commitment to ensuring that it's ONLY a stop gap measure.
CCP is good with some of their information, but when it comes to making changes, we never really know if the change they're making is stop gap, or permanent. This is where a clear roadmap outline can help out the player base tremendously, as well as the development teams.
Not to toot my own horn (much) but this and more is something I want to push to CCP. Whether I get on the CPM or not, I intend to make them discontinue the overuse of the nerfbat as a 'all-in-one solution and actually lay out their plans in a clear, concise format for us to say... look, they're doing this now... but we know that they want to take it here afterwards.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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Royalgiedro
Nor Clan Combat Logistics
0
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Posted - 2014.02.24 07:59:00 -
[17] - Quote
I think that the idea is very good, but needs a couple tweaks/additions.
1.) A way to stop spamming of installations.
a.) I foresee many maps being transformed into a giant mess of Bolases dropping walls everywhere. This would make the map inaccessible to tanks.
b.) A squad limit wouldn't work, because you can have up to 15 squads, so what if one person/squad put all the teams installations in very bad places?
c.) Perhaps make the hedgehogs have less than the health of a supply depot. Maybe 10k health? Also, make them available to be shield, armor, or balanced with their health design.
2.) AA guns shouldn't be deployable since drop ships are very easy to kill anyways. (and assault drop ships have to dodge enough)
Overall I think if you took the idea and shrunk it down in order to be more manageable and not abused, it would work wonders to improve gameplay and not make every match the same. |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
1040
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 09:18:00 -
[18] - Quote
Royalgiedro wrote:I think that the idea is very good, but needs a couple tweaks/additions.
1.) A way to stop spamming of installations.
a.) I foresee many maps being transformed into a giant mess of Bolases dropping walls everywhere. This would make the map inaccessible to tanks.
b.) A squad limit wouldn't work, because you can have up to 15 squads, so what if one person/squad put all the teams installations in very bad places?
c.) Perhaps make the hedgehogs have less than the health of a supply depot. Maybe 10k health? Also, make them available to be shield, armor, or balanced with their health design.
2.) AA guns shouldn't be deployable since drop ships are very easy to kill anyways. (and assault drop ships have to dodge enough)
Overall I think if you took the idea and shrunk it down in order to be more manageable and not abused, it would work wonders to improve gameplay and not make every match the same.
I do see your points, and I have some safeguards in place in my personal hardcopy of the idea (I typed it out before posting it here in a condensed forum version).
The 'limit' on spamming installations would be done primarily though the use of denial areas. You can't drop a hedgehog within x metres of another hedgehog, with a shared Installation Denial Area.
The actual number would have to be determined by range finding each map, setting 'deployable areas' but allow installations such as hedgehogs to be close enough together to actually impeded HAVs.
There could also be a map-wide cap for the time being. Similar in effect to the vehicle cap. While this may be abuseable by the people trolling and placing their installations behind your redline for whatever purpose, it would certainly limit the spam on the field of hedgehogs and turrets.
The HP issue is one I debate with. While a 10k HP buffer would be sizeable, a Railgun Tank could eliminate one without overheating. The reason the approx. Supply Depot was chosen was due to the fact that Supply Depot are hard to kill, and you have to sit there firing for a good length of time to actually remove them. That's what the Hedghogs need to be.
As to the Automated AA guns... we already have these in the form of Large Blaster Turrets, Railgun Turrets, and Missile Turrets and we know these can be deadly to Dropships. However what I'm proposing is that we make then 'smaller versions (probably medium sized, or double small) installations.
The idea behind the Turret Fitting I have here is that Turrets are not pre-equipped with AI. That is actually a fiting choice. So you take a turret and fit an AI module. Higher level Ai modules have better firing capabilities. The trade-off, as you might have guessed, is using one of your slots, thus making it a weaker turret overall.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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KalOfTheRathi
Nec Tributis
977
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Posted - 2014.02.24 10:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Funny, CCP/Shanghai wanted tanks to be simpler and have to play to a very specific play style. They accomplished that with 1.7, not that I agree with anything in their goals, solutions or methods but it has been accomplished: Tanks are easier to use. Simpler to operate and cheap enough to play early on.
This makes it better for a F2P game as New Berries can decide if they want to skill into vehicles without wasting the huge amount of SP required to do so.
The numbers balancing idea is just the clueless grasping at straws. It will make no difference in the short term nor the long term.
We have no information except the seat of our pants QQ-ing from so many Kittens. CCP keeps all the information secret as they don't want any other company to find out the monetary value of Dust514. At least one might suggest that regardless of the fact is we don't believe there are enough Mercs to matter all that much. The only value that matters is how much RWC (Real World Cash) is being spent at the PS store.
All the QQ in the world will make no difference if their income is enough or goes up.
And so it goes.
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VALCORE72
NECROM0NGERS The CORVOS
77
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Posted - 2014.02.24 12:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
if they added being able to vote or picking the map they would get a better understanding of what ppl want and build off that . ccp are the dumbest smart ppl on the planet . |
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Demo Isher
Nox Aeterna Security
6
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Posted - 2014.02.24 12:34:00 -
[21] - Quote
So basically you are just asking for more divers maps that hold player interaction and to be able to call down buildings/fortification. Hmm you know we have something like that in the game called Starthawk but I see where you are going with this because I have seen something similar to it done before and it worked well to fight off vehicles and infantry it really made people have to work as a team or they would all die no matter how good they were. |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
1041
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 12:37:00 -
[22] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:Funny, CCP/Shanghai wanted tanks to be simpler and have to play to a very specific play style. They accomplished that with 1.7, not that I agree with anything in their goals, solutions or methods but it has been accomplished: Tanks are easier to use. Simpler to operate and cheap enough to play early on.
This makes it better for a F2P game as New Berries can decide if they want to skill into vehicles without wasting the huge amount of SP required to do so.
The numbers balancing idea is just the clueless grasping at straws. It will make no difference in the short term nor the long term.
We have no information except the seat of our pants QQ-ing from so many Kittens. CCP keeps all the information secret as they don't want any other company to find out the monetary value of Dust514. At least one might suggest that regardless of the fact is we don't believe there are enough Mercs to matter all that much. The only value that matters is how much RWC (Real World Cash) is being spent at the PS store.
All the QQ in the world will make no difference if their income is enough or goes up.
I'm not actually proposing any radical changes to tanks in any way. They will still be as 'easy to use' as they are now... Will still be relatively easy to Skill into, Price should probably go up somewhat. But what I'm proposing is expanding the amount of things Infantry can do to mitigate HAVS.
Now, if you take the cynical CCP will only server their bottom line ideal, this would help them immensely in doing so. Why? Because even more play styles become viable... more play styles mean more people wanting to play, more people wanting to play... generally makes more money.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
1041
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Posted - 2014.02.24 12:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
Demo Isher wrote:So basically you are just asking for more divers maps that hold player interaction and to be able to call down buildings/fortification. Hmm you know we have something like that in the game called Starthawk but I see where you are going with this because I have seen something similar to it done before and it worked well to fight off vehicles and infantry it really made people have to work as a team or they would all die no matter how good they were.
I have seen Starhawk also, but it was not actually the original inspiration for this idea... but could be held as an example of how such a system could be done, and has been done.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
1041
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Posted - 2014.02.25 03:04:00 -
[24] - Quote
Bumping again to keep this above the nerfbat threads.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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Demo Isher
Nox Aeterna Security
6
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Posted - 2014.02.25 21:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
The Black Jackal wrote:Demo Isher wrote:So basically you are just asking for more divers maps that hold player interaction and to be able to call down buildings/fortification. Hmm you know we have something like that in the game called Starthawk but I see where you are going with this because I have seen something similar to it done before and it worked well to fight off vehicles and infantry it really made people have to work as a team or they would all die no matter how good they were. I have seen Starhawk also, but it was not actually the original inspiration for this idea... but could be held as an example of how such a system could be done, and has been done. Thanks for making a comment to me about that also I have a idea that you might like here is a link to it https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=143952&find=unread |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
1043
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Posted - 2014.02.26 21:32:00 -
[26] - Quote
Bumping to keep it ahead of the 'nerfbat' threads and QQ.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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Aerius Corius
FACTION WARFARE ARMY FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
31
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Posted - 2014.02.26 21:43:00 -
[27] - Quote
Another thread has been discussing tanks and fell to the wayside - please take time to read it, but post here.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=130672
Here are my own thoughts on tanks particularly, though I expand this to affect all vehicles weapon wise. I forgot lasers in my post in that thread, so I've since added and changed a little.
Blaster RoF should go down a good deal - maybe even a shot per second. I see the turret types as functioning like so to make each a choice in strategy, not power. Vehicles are meant to be tactical assets that affect team strategy...not just "I Win WP" choices...
Missiles: Medium RoF, Medium DMG (large splash), medium range, medium rotation
Blasters: High RoF, Low Damage, Low Range, High Rotation
Rails: Low RoF, High DMG (small splash), High Range, Low Rotation
Projectiles: Medium RoF, Medium Dmg, Low Range, High Rotation
Lasers: High RoF (Dmg Tick on the Laser), Medium DMG, Medium Range, Low Rotation
Blasters need to be the end all be all for anti-infantry tanks, no doubt, but they could be balanced a little better to not be so damn good at their job. Ambush mode suffers heavily from this. That said, blasters need to be anti-infantry NOT anti-armor, the "low dmg" I list is relative to vehicle dmg. A blaster should still hose you in five shots or less, regardless of suit type. The high rotation and RoF make it effective for up close infantry...like busting up a squad on a capture point. But the rotation, not the RoF, is really why a blaster should be good against infantry and essentially unimportant against vehicles.
Missiles need to be a form of medium range artillery against infantry and a decent threat to armor, especially LAV's. Missiles can take multiple infrantry out if used well, but would have trouble up close with a slower rotation. If enemy armor arrives, missiles are more effective than blasters and still have some rotation to deal with an LAV.
Rails work fine right now (tanks on hills are a pain, yes, but this is an anti-armor problem not a tank problem). Rails should be slow rotating, huge dmg, slow firing, anti-armor. They should have a relatively small blast radius - making infantry kills very difficult but not impossible at range. Really, rails need to be the anti-armor choice - the slow rotation can track a tank at mid-range, tough to hit an LAV or dropship nearby, and a blaster/missile tank could potentially outmaneuver up close. Rails should have a higher aim though - they should be able to aim around 60 degrees up or so to hit dropships at some distance without going frolicking in the red-line.
Projectiles need to be the happy middle of all-around effective, jack of all trades. Decent at anti-armor like missiles, but more pinpoint accurate (a good threat to LAV compared to missiles which take time to arrive at target) and capable of infantry kills at mid-range in the hands of a skilled pilot. Projectiles also should have a higher aim - again they should be able to aim around 60 degrees up or so to hit dropships at some distance without going to hills or red-line.
Lasers are another 'in between' more so on the range side - they reach further than projectiles and behave similar to blasters with a high RoF (the tick on the continuous laser dmg) but with better dmg. The catch is low rotation. It's very much a mid field weapon that would likely be more effective against infantry but useful on enemy armor/installations.
In terms of dmg types (the whole Therm/Kin/EM/Expl from EvE) I'd apply the same concepts here. They work in EvE, use them here and keep it simple.
These concepts should apply to small armaments too - LAV's with rails could be a quick solution to a tank that has squadmates pinned in a building. Dropships with blasters can do closer encounters with infantry and better handle that pesky AV dropsuit - or a dropship with projectiles makes a great versatile artillery platform against infantry or vehicles.
Food for thought.
That guy you killed with 0% shields?
Yeah, I sniped him - go team.
Oh, you didn't know...hmm.
*CCP: Display Assists!!!
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killertojo42
Sardaukar Merc Guild
25
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Posted - 2014.02.26 22:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
On your idea for anti infantry tanks i already proposed a good idea, just crank up the rate of fire by a whole damn lot and drop the damage and accuracy greatly, design it to bust up groups of infantry, provide suppressing fire and feel wastefulto use so much ammo on a single clone troop
When walking on the battlefield i stand alone
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion
1043
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Posted - 2014.02.26 23:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
Demo Isher wrote:The Black Jackal wrote:Demo Isher wrote:So basically you are just asking for more divers maps that hold player interaction and to be able to call down buildings/fortification. Hmm you know we have something like that in the game called Starthawk but I see where you are going with this because I have seen something similar to it done before and it worked well to fight off vehicles and infantry it really made people have to work as a team or they would all die no matter how good they were. I have seen Starhawk also, but it was not actually the original inspiration for this idea... but could be held as an example of how such a system could be done, and has been done. Thanks for making a comment to me about that also I have a idea that you might like here is a link to it https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=143952&find=unread
The idea of introducing NPC allies into a warzone is a nice one. One that could potentially be epic.
However... first off it's not in CCPs general overall designs. They try to make things as player centric as possible. EVE is mostly player run with NPCs almost exclusively being hostiles or mission givers.
Secondly, each one of those Ai entities would have a brain... brains require calculation, calculation requires memory. With everything that currently draws on memory already causing technical issues, I don't think it would be advisable as yet.
Now good point here, is that it expands conflict, allows players to delegate an NPC 'Squad' to do something, freeing them up to do other things. But where do you stop? If you're equipping these NPCs why can't you outfit your entire 'squad' in Tanks? Can you imagine the infantry rage if suddenly full teams could be augmented by full squads of tanks on top of the team, rather than using one of the team to drive said tanks? Or Assault Dropships?
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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Demo Isher
Nox Aeterna Security
6
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Posted - 2014.02.27 03:48:00 -
[30] - Quote
The Black Jackal wrote:Demo Isher wrote:The Black Jackal wrote:Demo Isher wrote:So basically you are just asking for more divers maps that hold player interaction and to be able to call down buildings/fortification. Hmm you know we have something like that in the game called Starthawk but I see where you are going with this because I have seen something similar to it done before and it worked well to fight off vehicles and infantry it really made people have to work as a team or they would all die no matter how good they were. I have seen Starhawk also, but it was not actually the original inspiration for this idea... but could be held as an example of how such a system could be done, and has been done. Thanks for making a comment to me about that also I have a idea that you might like here is a link to it https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=143952&find=unread The idea of introducing NPC allies into a warzone is a nice one. One that could potentially be epic. However... first off it's not in CCPs general overall designs. They try to make things as player centric as possible. EVE is mostly player run with NPCs almost exclusively being hostiles or mission givers. Secondly, each one of those Ai entities would have a brain... brains require calculation, calculation requires memory. With everything that currently draws on memory already causing technical issues, I don't think it would be advisable as yet. Now good point here, is that it expands conflict, allows players to delegate an NPC 'Squad' to do something, freeing them up to do other things. But where do you stop? If you're equipping these NPCs why can't you outfit your entire 'squad' in Tanks? Can you imagine the infantry rage if suddenly full teams could be augmented by full squads of tanks on top of the team, rather than using one of the team to drive said tanks? Or Assault Dropships? You bring up some good points I will make an addon to the idea to fix more problems I know this idea will never be added in but I like to just have it there just in case. Also please post future comments about it on that page to make it easier for me to respond to it. |
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