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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion League of Infamy
1075
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Posted - 2014.03.28 14:23:00 -
[61] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:It seems CCP disagrees, as a numerical change was their solution to the problem.
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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Mobius Wyvern
Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad.
4950
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Posted - 2014.03.28 14:25:00 -
[62] - Quote
The Black Jackal wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:It seems CCP disagrees, as a numerical change was their solution to the problem. When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Damn, dude, you drop one-liners like I drop orbitals.
Constantly.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion League of Infamy
1076
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Posted - 2014.03.28 14:52:00 -
[63] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:The Black Jackal wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:It seems CCP disagrees, as a numerical change was their solution to the problem. When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Damn, dude, you drop one-liners like I drop orbitals. Constantly.
I like things short and succinct sometimes....
Not often, but sometimes....
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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Goric Rumis
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
382
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Posted - 2014.03.28 16:08:00 -
[64] - Quote
I'm just going to leave this here. A lot of my ideas about map balance and how it makes play more interesting.
Goric Rumis wrote:The fact that I don't feel utterly hopeless on today's battlefield suggests to me that the vehicle balance, while not as good as some of the outspoken tankers seem to believe, isn't as bad as some players are suggesting.
The main problem is that their domain on the maps needs to be limited. With vehicles dominating open landscapes, more of the installations and null cannon interfaces need to be placed inside facilities where infantry have a chance both to make a stand and to fulfill a purpose beyond playing tag-along with tanks. Vehicles should be supporting infantry, rather than infantry filling in holes where vehicles aren't effective. Most structures are too small, too open, and too simple. With better map design, infantry could dig in for a long siege where having vehicle supremacy would definitely confer an advantage but wouldn't dictate the entire conflict.
Take, for example, the three-tiered in-ground facility with the CRU on the second floor and the null cannon at the bottom. If this were re-designed to put the CRU at the top (within reach of vehicles), a supply depot on the second floor and the null cannon at the bottom, having a vehicle above would enable enemy infantry to capture the top spawn point, even while the defenders are still able to spawn through the null cannon. The supply depot could then be used to refit into AV to push back the tanks and re-capture the topside CRU. In this way a single null cannon is transformed into a three-stage conflict: (1) capture CRU to permit infantry spawn, (2) capture supply depot to cut off AV and secure topside position, and (3) capture null cannon. And this is not one of the largest or most complex facilities.
This is exactly where vehicles need to be: Vehicle superiority is advantageous when it comes to entering into a facility, but once you're there you will still need strong infantry--not just one or two players with the ability to throw grenades into foxholes. This separates the vehicle gameplay from the infantry gameplay to a certain extent, so that vehicles mostly fight one another and infantry mostly fight one another, but the overlap is significant enough that they both impact the ability to win any given match.
Limiting the ability of tanks to engage infantry solves nearly every other problem, and does it without artificially limiting the sandbox: players won't want to play tanks as much because there are a lot of places they can't go; teams with too many vehicles won't be able to take points as easily and will be unable to defend their points if enemy infantry manage to break through; vehicles will still be tough and still serve an important function in the game; and players could still viably do all-vehicle battles (provided the number of vehicles doesn't need to be limited for performance reasons).
AV still requires some buffs to be viable even in this circumstance, but in the current iteration we have to accept that infantry AV today is primarily about pushing vehicles back from a position and less about destroying them. With respect to this, creating tactical positions that are specifically useful for AV to fight vehicles will be important. These tactical positions would generally be elevated, accessible from inside a structure, and provide cover that is occluded against vehicle splash damage. These again increase the variety in gameplay by providing positions that are exposed to infantry but protected from vehicles--a map-based rock-paper-scissors scheme that mitigates AV players' relative weakness against vehicles but still leaves them open to infantry assault.
TL;DR: The maps are too open, so that if vehicles dominate they are able to dominate everything. Re-working maps to limit the ability of tanks to engage infantry solves every other problem, and does it without artificially limiting the sandbox or returning tanks to paper-thin status. Infantry AV still requires buffs that can be made partly through map design, but its role has fundamentally changed from destroying vehicles to routing them.
The ability to drop installations was at one point going to be given to a field commander role who plays the game more as an RTS than as a shooter. I'm not sure whether that role is still planned for the future, and if so, I can't see how it would exist outside of controlled corp matches (e.g., PC). But at least hypothetically they would have designed the game with the expectation that at some point a player would be able to manually drop in an installation.
The Tank Balancing Factor No One Is Discussing
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
1792
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Posted - 2014.03.28 16:30:00 -
[65] - Quote
Goric Rumis wrote:The ability to drop installations was at one point going to be given to a field commander role who plays the game more as an RTS than as a shooter. I'm not sure whether that role is still planned for the future, and if so, I can't see how it would exist outside of controlled corp matches (e.g., PC). But at least hypothetically they would have designed the game with the expectation that at some point a player would be able to manually drop in an installation.
They could let people queue with a flag that they're willing to be it, and public matches could pick one. They could gain their war points via orbitals, earned by squads, since then players don't have to jump to the map screen to use orbitals, as well as war points from people using installations they drop.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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SGTFunyoun THEFIRST
Arachnea Phoenix Battalion
66
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Posted - 2014.03.28 20:16:00 -
[66] - Quote
I just hope they bring installations to the player's use soon. Tired of them getting blown up and not having anymore Or they sit behind a hill and are totally useless.
Never steal SGT Funyoun's Jingle Truck... or I will blow you up in it... and eat your blueberry flavored protobear soul.
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion League of Infamy
1099
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Posted - 2014.04.10 00:58:00 -
[67] - Quote
Been a while, so I'll bump this topic up again.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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l3uzzzoff
Commando Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.04.10 01:37:00 -
[68] - Quote
i only find vehicles being a problem in ambushs. they can be dealt with in domination and skirmish maps are bigger and u have a ncc to spawn from to request a vehicle. y i think they shouldn't allow vehicles in ambush. |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion League of Infamy
1099
|
Posted - 2014.04.10 02:07:00 -
[69] - Quote
l3uzzzoff wrote:i only find vehicles being a problem in ambushs. they can be dealt with in domination and skirmish maps are bigger and u have a ncc to spawn from to request a vehicle. y i think they shouldn't allow vehicles in ambush.
While I agree they are a bigger issue in Ambush, the fact that you state "you have an MCC to spawn to request a vehicle" illustrates that the point is valid. Vehicle Vs. Vehicle is currently the only balanced component of Anti=Vehicle (discounting Militia Vehicles which I still maintain should be removed).
Anti-Vehicle shouldn't require an MCC spawn and vehicle call-in to deal with. You should be able to block, impede, disable, and / or destroy vehicles without the aid of another vehicle.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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Paul Ellinas
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
54
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Posted - 2014.04.10 02:25:00 -
[70] - Quote
Goric Rumis wrote:I'm just going to leave this here. A lot of my ideas about map balance and how it makes play more interesting. Goric Rumis wrote:The fact that I don't feel utterly hopeless on today's battlefield suggests to me that the vehicle balance, while not as good as some of the outspoken tankers seem to believe, isn't as bad as some players are suggesting.
The main problem is that their domain on the maps needs to be limited. With vehicles dominating open landscapes, more of the installations and null cannon interfaces need to be placed inside facilities where infantry have a chance both to make a stand and to fulfill a purpose beyond playing tag-along with tanks. Vehicles should be supporting infantry, rather than infantry filling in holes where vehicles aren't effective. Most structures are too small, too open, and too simple. With better map design, infantry could dig in for a long siege where having vehicle supremacy would definitely confer an advantage but wouldn't dictate the entire conflict.
Take, for example, the three-tiered in-ground facility with the CRU on the second floor and the null cannon at the bottom. If this were re-designed to put the CRU at the top (within reach of vehicles), a supply depot on the second floor and the null cannon at the bottom, having a vehicle above would enable enemy infantry to capture the top spawn point, even while the defenders are still able to spawn through the null cannon. The supply depot could then be used to refit into AV to push back the tanks and re-capture the topside CRU. In this way a single null cannon is transformed into a three-stage conflict: (1) capture CRU to permit infantry spawn, (2) capture supply depot to cut off AV and secure topside position, and (3) capture null cannon. And this is not one of the largest or most complex facilities.
This is exactly where vehicles need to be: Vehicle superiority is advantageous when it comes to entering into a facility, but once you're there you will still need strong infantry--not just one or two players with the ability to throw grenades into foxholes. This separates the vehicle gameplay from the infantry gameplay to a certain extent, so that vehicles mostly fight one another and infantry mostly fight one another, but the overlap is significant enough that they both impact the ability to win any given match.
Limiting the ability of tanks to engage infantry solves nearly every other problem, and does it without artificially limiting the sandbox: players won't want to play tanks as much because there are a lot of places they can't go; teams with too many vehicles won't be able to take points as easily and will be unable to defend their points if enemy infantry manage to break through; vehicles will still be tough and still serve an important function in the game; and players could still viably do all-vehicle battles (provided the number of vehicles doesn't need to be limited for performance reasons).
AV still requires some buffs to be viable even in this circumstance, but in the current iteration we have to accept that infantry AV today is primarily about pushing vehicles back from a position and less about destroying them. With respect to this, creating tactical positions that are specifically useful for AV to fight vehicles will be important. These tactical positions would generally be elevated, accessible from inside a structure, and provide cover that is occluded against vehicle splash damage. These again increase the variety in gameplay by providing positions that are exposed to infantry but protected from vehicles--a map-based rock-paper-scissors scheme that mitigates AV players' relative weakness against vehicles but still leaves them open to infantry assault.
TL;DR: The maps are too open, so that if vehicles dominate they are able to dominate everything. Re-working maps to limit the ability of tanks to engage infantry solves every other problem, and does it without artificially limiting the sandbox or returning tanks to paper-thin status. Infantry AV still requires buffs that can be made partly through map design, but its role has fundamentally changed from destroying vehicles to routing them. The ability to drop installations was at one point going to be given to a field commander role who plays the game more as an RTS than as a shooter. I'm not sure whether that role is still planned for the future, and if so, I can't see how it would exist outside of controlled corp matches (e.g., PC). But at least hypothetically they would have designed the game with the expectation that at some point a player would be able to manually drop in an installation.
They can give the role to someone with a tablet (iPad etc). Like the BF4,The division and other FPS.
As about the balance Vehicles vs Infantry i believe CCP made a great job with 1.8. Swarms are back but not OP.The forge gun back is a back and need to be fixed soon. And there is the thing how the armor repairs work on vehicles. The vehicle armor repair has no delay and it decimates the income damage.Like armor repair tools and armor repair for infantry before they fixed it. I believe they did it at 1.7. |
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion Final Resolution.
1171
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Posted - 2014.05.22 00:15:00 -
[71] - Quote
Bumping this for serious consideration when designing maps for Legion.
Lest we make the same mistakes in the game we want, as opposed to the game we have.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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