DUST Search - [Video] Shotgun Theory

Appia Vibbia wrote:

Currently dropsuits have 100% speed while walking backwards. Reducing this to 80% would help the shotgun immensely.
Damage does not scale with tier. I think that if the damage was scaled up on all the Alpha-damage weapons it would be better than messing around with the other stats.

The claim that it "is too accurate" is something I do not agree with. I'd love it if it could be a single slug that fires from the center.

I do feel that the damage drop-off is unnecessarily steep.

The breach especially needs to be doing very high amounts of damage. Right now, a prototype breach cannot kill a prototype Cal or Gal logi. It was always a fun concept to have the Shotgun scout as a rock-paper-scissors game with heavies, but when it takes 2 full clips from a weapon that only fires once ever 1.2 seconds and takes another 2.4 seconds to reload is just way past crazy.

The breach also needs to follow its description by having a higher range than the basic shotgun. Worse, the breach has a steeper falloff than the basic variant.

Something has to change. Either make the total health on Advanced and Prototype suits go down OR increase the damage on the high-damage, low-rate of fire, specialist weapons; the Shotgun, Nova Knives, and Sniper Rifle.

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Aeon Amadi Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 4922	Posted - 2014.02.16 08:42:00 - [1] - Quote I'll try to have the video up and running whenever Youtube/Google Plus/Sony Vegas stop being absolute pricks. Sorry for the wait. TL;DR (to the best of my ability) version is underlined. I'll try to be brief, but there's a lot to cover. I apologize for the lack of narration in the video, my editing software is on the fritz. I've been keeping a close eye on Shotgun balance for several months now and I've heard a lot of different view-points on what the Shotgun needs to keep up with the power creep presented in Dust 514. After running tests and conducting interviews, here's what I've found: Based on what was seen in the video, the shotgun seems to suffer from what the HMG suffered from (to a lesser extent) in previous buildsin that it is (in my opinion) too accurate, as demonstrated by Ghazbaran here. The SG does seem to have some spread but not enough to fill it's reticle, leading the player to a false sense of what the weapon's capabilities are. Just as well, instead of firing in a spread-like "cone", it seems to fire in a "line", which applies the most damage when it is dead center at all ranges, rather than hitting the target toward the outer edges of the reticle at longer ranges. The damage seems to simply be reduced based on range with less stipulation on spread. This is most obvious in the video where we can see that the target has to be at least a third or half of the way in the reticle for damage to be applied. This may be due to the Shotgun's Operation skill, however, which is mandatory for higher tiers of SGs. In order to get a more powerful SG, the user must sacrifice pellet spread. (Side note: My current theory is that this will be further impacted by Gallente Assaults that use the SG as they are, unless changes are made, receiving a reduction in dispersion to blaster weaporny in 1.8) Range is something of a wonder, as the SG's optimal range is hard-capped at 4 meters with an approximate 10% reduction in efficiency every meter beyond it's optimal. Beyond 10 meters, the user will be dealing <50% of the SG's damage. At 20 meters, the damage is non-existent. (Point of reference: The 870MCS Shotgun in Battlefield 4 has an effective range of 30 meters where it deals 50% damage)*There are some players that feel the weapon could benefit from it's optimal range being increased so that it's damage can be better applied to the target.* Because of the SG's firing nature as a "line" as described earlier, combined with it's minimalistic aim assist features (magnetism being virtually non-existent), it is very easy to strafe out of the SG's firing lane. This is made worse at close ranges due to the game's Field of View, current strafe speeds and a lack of aim assist procedures though some may argue against the latter. Another factor is the psychological aspect of "false positives" which are seen in the video, where shields will flicker but no damage is dealt. To the extent of damage, whether due to spread, range or simply it's base damage, the SG has a hard time killing some targets before they are able to react against the user, as seen in the video. While anecdotal and subjective, I was using a 'Templar' Sentinel with an HMG and had enough time to turn around and nearly kill my assistant before he killed me with the shotgun. *There are some players that feel more damage would help the weapon as well.* *So what do you think? What does the Shotgun need, if anything?* Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1707	Posted - 2014.02.16 08:51:00 - [2] - Quote 2-4m optimal buff, and a slightly less ahrsh dropoff, and the shotty will be perfect. 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever! Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Auris Lionesse Capital Acquisitions LLC Renegade Alliance 220	Posted - 2014.02.16 09:00:00 - [3] - Quote new iron sights 1 Faster ads turning speed 2 More range 3 (Full damage out to 8-10m) 15 for breach And 5m falloff after that. It should reign supreme within 15m. Add a skill for increased turning speed with a shotgun equipped only that affects ads and hipfire. Or add midslots to suits and give tracking modules that effectively do the same thing. Increase turning speed.
DEZKA DIABLO A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 182	Posted - 2014.02.16 09:02:00 - [4] - Quote Can you maybe make a sg vid since you got dust pull?
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 945	Posted - 2014.02.16 09:07:00 - [5] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: new iron sights 1 Faster ads turning speed 2 More range 3 (Full damage out to 8-10m) 15 for breach And 5m falloff after that. It should reign supreme within 15m. Add a skill for increased turning speed with a shotgun equipped only that affects ads and hipfire. Or add midslots to suits and give tracking modules that effectively do the same thing. Increase turning speed. Yes Id make operations Rof increase and proficiency dmg increase Then once the new irons sights are given to the shotgun tie the spread decrease to ADS
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 3635	Posted - 2014.02.16 10:04:00 - [6] - Quote Yeah... shotguns don't really shoot like shotguns. It's more like a slug with pinpoint accuracy and a completely random amount of damage dealt every single time with rubbish range. The reticule is misleading and the iron sights are hilariously bad. Scouts have been complaining about the shotty for a long time to no avail. Half of the problem with the range isn't even range itself. Character back pedaling is way too fast. You can counter both shotguns and knives just by jumping then walking backwards. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 2223	Posted - 2014.02.16 10:15:00 - [7] - Quote Are you absolutely certain about it being too accurate like the HMG? If so, I might try the shotgun out for a little while. That seems like it could be used it my favor... I like shotguns with a tight pellet spread. Fizzer94 // Forum Warrior Operation II // MAG Vet Gallente Neutron Rifle
Aeon Amadi Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 4930	Posted - 2014.02.16 15:57:00 - [8] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Yeah... shotguns don't really shoot like shotguns. It's more like a slug with pinpoint accuracy and a completely random amount of damage dealt every single time with rubbish range. The reticule is misleading and the iron sights are hilariously bad. Scouts have been complaining about the shotty for a long time to no avail. Half of the problem with the range isn't even range itself. Character back pedaling is way too fast. You can counter both shotguns and knives just by jumping then walking backwards. Yeh, I know that pain brosef. Been working very hard to educate the masses and see if we can get this re-balanced. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Knight Solitaire Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 179	Posted - 2014.02.16 16:13:00 - [9] - Quote The Shotgun needs to be fixed before its buffed. Imagine what the HMG would be like if CCP buffed it before they fixed it. I just want my Shotgun to do more damage outside humping range. Corp: Fatal Absolution Alliance: General Tso's Alliance Aim Assist = Persuers
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 491	Posted - 2014.02.16 16:24:00 - [10] - Quote Nice video showing the SG in action. I think it just needs a few fixes to make it work. A small optimal range increase and I agree the spread is to tight. Please fix the mic bubble bug...

Texs Red DUST University Ivy League 217	Posted - 2014.02.16 17:02:00 - [11] - Quote Excellent video. Reducing spread while having optimal range hard capped at 4m is horrible! Maybe if that spread reduction somehow increased it's range a little bit to compensate but it doesn't so it remains horrible.
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 1134	Posted - 2014.02.16 17:03:00 - [12] - Quote More spread as shown would be nice. A little bit more of range, too. I still haven't understood why reducing spread on a shotgun is a good thing...
Annie Oakley II TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 16	Posted - 2014.02.16 17:14:00 - [13] - Quote That is a masterful synopsis of the two major flaws in shotguns. Range has always been an issue, back in the beta and before the death of Cromy, the range of shot gun was too great. I could hit a guy center mass from 20 meters for almost full dmg. I agree that the current range on the shoty leaves much to be desired but CCP is going to have a hell of a time making it balance out again. Too much and you will snipe the **** off a flea at 15m, too little and you have what we do now. The center of mass shots have never been too big of an issue IMO but not all shotgun users have Prof 5 on the weapon, reload, and ammo. I put out enough rounds that if i miss the first i can pop off the second in under two seconds. A wider spread would be nice, but im sure that would be a programing nightmare. Once that spread outside the Center of mass makes it past 8-10m the damage would have to drop significantly. But that is neither here nor there, I do hope your post gets seen by at least one Dev, lord knows shotgun could use a change.
Smooth Assassin Stardust Incorporation IMMORTAL REGIME 879	Posted - 2014.02.16 17:34:00 - [14] - Quote The shotgun is a good weapon and in chromosone it was OP because of the range, sure sometimes someone backsteps and kills me cos i only dealt 2 damage to him but right now the shotgun is balanced. The spread has it's own skill so we can't do much about that... and it's kinda useful anyways... *Assassination is my thing.*
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 946	Posted - 2014.02.16 17:37:00 - [15] - Quote Smooth Assassin wrote: The shotgun is a good weapon and in chromosone it was OP because of the range, sure sometimes someone backsteps and kills me cos i only dealt 2 damage to him but right now the shotgun is balanced. The spread has it's own skill so we can't do much about that... and it's kinda useful anyways... No to all of this
Johnny Guilt Algintal Core 506	Posted - 2014.02.16 18:19:00 - [16] - Quote 1.improve it's performance and feel for one. 2.3-5+ optimal range and maybe a proficiency skill that is worth it's SP.(Would you really pick ROF over damage for a shotgun?) 3..ADS turn speed increase(why is it so slow in the first place?) 4.actally tell how many pellets are in each shot in its description(put a ##x next to the damage or something) A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
neausea 1987 A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 19	Posted - 2014.02.16 18:26:00 - [17] - Quote i like how players are starting to show the pro/con attributes of these weapons that way i can better understand what the f*ck CCP was thinking when they made these weapons. the lack of range makes the spread pointless because you have to be in their rectum to get any effect so why have spread at all, the ring is misleading as you stated and in my opinion its wayyyy better to shotgun with AA off. it need a fix rather than a buff. (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ what i do to proto suit users
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1583	Posted - 2014.02.16 18:45:00 - [18] - Quote +1 Aeon. More good stuff, ty. Ranked by importance: 1) Shotgun needs to shoot like a shotgun, with damage dispersing in a cone. The reticule must provide useful, accurate information to the operator. If CCP had any pride at all, the HUD reticule would vary dynamically with the weapon's properties and the operator's skills. 2) Dispersion and operation should be decoupled, same as HMG. CCP would get good bang for the dev-hours-buck out of this as different scouts could tweak the dispersion to their preference. But even better would be the modular weapons system(totally unrealistic atm, alas). 3) If the SG was operating like a SG should, a 2-3 metre increase to optimal would do the trick. Falloff at something like 5 meters would do the rest to ensure that the SG's 'bubble of lethality' was uncomfortably large ;) 4) Shotguns should give us fast ADS, maybe with the breach being a little slower. I support SP rollover.
Soldner VonKuechle SAM-MIK 327	Posted - 2014.02.16 19:17:00 - [19] - Quote Guys, we forgot to ask the SG expert, Kingthunderbolt! Surely he knows whats best for it! (punches self in face for the thought i just subjected you to) CEO of SAM-MIK...sometimes. (shhh don't tell anyone, they'll start asking questions)
CommanderBolt ACME SPECIAL FORCES Legacy Rising 685	Posted - 2014.02.16 19:28:00 - [20] - Quote To be honest Aeon I think most shot gunners would be happy with just a little more range. The weapon does have firing / hitting issues but that would be down to CCP to fix. Possibly give us a standard cross-hair instead of the circle? I have always disliked the operations skill for the shotgun reducing spread too, like someone else said - making this the RoF bonus and having DMG at the proficiency level would be nice.

Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2298	Posted - 2014.02.16 20:06:00 - [21] - Quote No range buff. I'm happy with the flanking and close range aspect of the weapon. I just want it not be beat when I catch someone from behind. CR should not be the best shotgun in the game. The SG should win all surprise encounters and 2 shot medium suits AT MOST. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 13	Posted - 2014.02.16 20:16:00 - [22] - Quote The idea that a shotgun must have a wide spread is a bit silly in my opinion. I am fine with a bit of spread but remember that to apply reasonable damage a large spread requires you to be more accurate, it also effects damage at range. I know real life weapons are mostly irrelevant but irl a shotgun has a very small spread. I think what the shotgun needs is an extra 5m or so on optimal range. This will also help make it viable for assault suits to use as well as scouts. I've been running shotgun scout as my main since chromosome, if that means anything.
Aeon Amadi Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 4943	Posted - 2014.02.17 02:00:00 - [23] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: The idea that a shotgun must have a wide spread is a bit silly in my opinion. I am fine with a bit of spread but remember that to apply reasonable damage a large spread requires you to be more accurate, it also effects damage at range. I know real life weapons are mostly irrelevant but irl a shotgun has a very small spread. I think what the shotgun needs is an extra 5m or so on optimal range. This will also help make it viable for assault suits to use as well as scouts. I've been running shotgun scout as my main since chromosome, if that means anything. Bear in mind that while a real life shotgun has a very small spread, it also has quite a bit of range to it as well (we hunt with these things afterall). The aspect of having a large spread requires more accuracy is a little flawed, however, as having a larger spread actually requires -less- accuracy and lower range. But again, the shotgun here isn't operating as a cone of fire; it's operating as a line. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Otrera Goddess Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 141	Posted - 2014.02.17 02:07:00 - [24] - Quote Leave my shotgun alone It works just fine for me
BAD FURRY SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 530	Posted - 2014.02.17 02:09:00 - [25] - Quote The Outline - Shotgun Idk just did it for the lulz Yes i am a Undead Hell Wolf ... nice to meat you!
Bormir1r WarRavens League of Infamy 84	Posted - 2014.02.17 02:34:00 - [26] - Quote Only 2 things needed, increase optimal range (2-4 meters) and fixed hit detection. Minja. We run and hide. And then we kill you.
Appia Vibbia Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 1204	Posted - 2014.02.17 03:17:00 - [27] - Quote Currently dropsuits have 100% speed while walking backwards. Reducing this to 80% would help the shotgun immensely. Damage does not scale with tier. I think that if the damage was scaled up on all the Alpha-damage weapons it would be better than messing around with the other stats. The claim that it "is too accurate" is something I do not agree with. I'd love it if it could be a single slug that fires from the center. I do feel that the damage drop-off is unnecessarily steep. The breach especially needs to be doing very high amounts of damage. Right now, a prototype breach cannot kill a prototype Cal or Gal logi. It was always a fun concept to have the Shotgun scout as a rock-paper-scissors game with heavies, but when it takes 2 full clips from a weapon that only fires once ever 1.2 seconds and takes another 2.4 seconds to reload is just way past crazy. The breach also needs to follow its description by having a higher range than the basic shotgun. Worse, the breach has a steeper falloff than the basic variant. Something has to change. Either make the total health on Advanced and Prototype suits go down OR increase the damage on the high-damage, low-rate of fire, specialist weapons; the Shotgun, Nova Knives, and Sniper Rifle. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday)
Aeon Amadi Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 4947	Posted - 2014.02.17 03:30:00 - [28] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Currently dropsuits have 100% speed while walking backwards. Reducing this to 80% would help the shotgun immensely. Damage does not scale with tier. I think that if the damage was scaled up on all the Alpha-damage weapons it would be better than messing around with the other stats. The claim that it "is too accurate" is something I do not agree with. I'd love it if it could be a single slug that fires from the center. I do feel that the damage drop-off is unnecessarily steep. The breach especially needs to be doing very high amounts of damage. Right now, a prototype breach cannot kill a prototype Cal or Gal logi. It was always a fun concept to have the Shotgun scout as a rock-paper-scissors game with heavies, but when it takes 2 full clips from a weapon that only fires once ever 1.2 seconds and takes another 2.4 seconds to reload is just way past crazy. The breach also needs to follow its description by having a higher range than the basic shotgun. Worse, the breach has a steeper falloff than the basic variant. Something has to change. Either make the total health on Advanced and Prototype suits go down OR increase the damage on the high-damage, low-rate of fire, specialist weapons; the Shotgun, Nova Knives, and Sniper Rifle. The "too accurate" part comes from misinterpretation based on the reticle. The spread isn't large enough, whether due to the weapon itself or from the Shotgun Operation skill (I have to test this), to fill the reticle. So, either the reticle needs it's size decreased to provide a better gauge for the player or it needs to fire with a larger spread to match it. It's a mechanical barrier that the player has to deal with caused by the UI and is completely, 100% unnecessary. Useful Links //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588 //forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
Bormir1r WarRavens League of Infamy 84	Posted - 2014.02.17 03:32:00 - [29] - Quote Of course there's the quicksand bug on top of this.... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=142612&find=unread Minja. We run and hide. And then we kill you.
Appia Vibbia Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 1204	Posted - 2014.02.17 03:33:00 - [30] - Quote If I have sharpshooter 5 on a combat rifle or an assault rifle, I don't see my bullets dispersing to the full expansive area of the cross-hairs for those weapons. Why should the shotgun be any different? OR should the reticle shrink for all the weapons that have dispersion reduction as skill bonuses? Should the Gallente Assault bonus make the Gallente weapons have a smaller one too? Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday)



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