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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
4922
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Posted - 2014.02.16 08:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'll try to have the video up and running whenever Youtube/Google Plus/Sony Vegas stop being absolute pricks. Sorry for the wait.
TL;DR (to the best of my ability) version is underlined.
I'll try to be brief, but there's a lot to cover. I apologize for the lack of narration in the video, my editing software is on the fritz. I've been keeping a close eye on Shotgun balance for several months now and I've heard a lot of different view-points on what the Shotgun needs to keep up with the power creep presented in Dust 514. After running tests and conducting interviews, here's what I've found:
Based on what was seen in the video, the shotgun seems to suffer from what the HMG suffered from (to a lesser extent) in previous buildsin that it is (in my opinion) too accurate, as demonstrated by Ghazbaran here. The SG does seem to have some spread but not enough to fill it's reticle, leading the player to a false sense of what the weapon's capabilities are. Just as well, instead of firing in a spread-like "cone", it seems to fire in a "line", which applies the most damage when it is dead center at all ranges, rather than hitting the target toward the outer edges of the reticle at longer ranges.
The damage seems to simply be reduced based on range with less stipulation on spread. This is most obvious in the video where we can see that the target has to be at least a third or half of the way in the reticle for damage to be applied. This may be due to the Shotgun's Operation skill, however, which is mandatory for higher tiers of SGs. In order to get a more powerful SG, the user must sacrifice pellet spread.
(Side note: My current theory is that this will be further impacted by Gallente Assaults that use the SG as they are, unless changes are made, receiving a reduction in dispersion to blaster weaporny in 1.8)
Range is something of a wonder, as the SG's optimal range is hard-capped at 4 meters with an approximate 10% reduction in efficiency every meter beyond it's optimal. Beyond 10 meters, the user will be dealing <50% of the SG's damage. At 20 meters, the damage is non-existent. (Point of reference: The 870MCS Shotgun in Battlefield 4 has an effective range of 30 meters where it deals 50% damage)There are some players that feel the weapon could benefit from it's optimal range being increased so that it's damage can be better applied to the target.
Because of the SG's firing nature as a "line" as described earlier, combined with it's minimalistic aim assist features (magnetism being virtually non-existent), it is very easy to strafe out of the SG's firing lane. This is made worse at close ranges due to the game's Field of View, current strafe speeds and a lack of aim assist procedures though some may argue against the latter. Another factor is the psychological aspect of "false positives" which are seen in the video, where shields will flicker but no damage is dealt.
To the extent of damage, whether due to spread, range or simply it's base damage, the SG has a hard time killing some targets before they are able to react against the user, as seen in the video. While anecdotal and subjective, I was using a 'Templar' Sentinel with an HMG and had enough time to turn around and nearly kill my assistant before he killed me with the shotgun. There are some players that feel more damage would help the weapon as well.
So what do you think? What does the Shotgun need, if anything?
Useful Links
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588
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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
4930
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 15:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:Yeah... shotguns don't really shoot like shotguns. It's more like a slug with pinpoint accuracy and a completely random amount of damage dealt every single time with rubbish range. The reticule is misleading and the iron sights are hilariously bad.
Scouts have been complaining about the shotty for a long time to no avail.
Half of the problem with the range isn't even range itself. Character back pedaling is way too fast. You can counter both shotguns and knives just by jumping then walking backwards.
Yeh, I know that pain brosef. Been working very hard to educate the masses and see if we can get this re-balanced.
Useful Links
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
4943
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 02:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:The idea that a shotgun must have a wide spread is a bit silly in my opinion. I am fine with a bit of spread but remember that to apply reasonable damage a large spread requires you to be more accurate, it also effects damage at range. I know real life weapons are mostly irrelevant but irl a shotgun has a very small spread.
I think what the shotgun needs is an extra 5m or so on optimal range. This will also help make it viable for assault suits to use as well as scouts. I've been running shotgun scout as my main since chromosome, if that means anything.
Bear in mind that while a real life shotgun has a very small spread, it also has quite a bit of range to it as well (we hunt with these things afterall). The aspect of having a large spread requires more accuracy is a little flawed, however, as having a larger spread actually requires -less- accuracy and lower range. But again, the shotgun here isn't operating as a cone of fire; it's operating as a line.
Useful Links
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
4947
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 03:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote:Currently dropsuits have 100% speed while walking backwards. Reducing this to 80% would help the shotgun immensely.
Damage does not scale with tier. I think that if the damage was scaled up on all the Alpha-damage weapons it would be better than messing around with the other stats.
The claim that it "is too accurate" is something I do not agree with. I'd love it if it could be a single slug that fires from the center.
I do feel that the damage drop-off is unnecessarily steep.
The breach especially needs to be doing very high amounts of damage. Right now, a prototype breach cannot kill a prototype Cal or Gal logi. It was always a fun concept to have the Shotgun scout as a rock-paper-scissors game with heavies, but when it takes 2 full clips from a weapon that only fires once ever 1.2 seconds and takes another 2.4 seconds to reload is just way past crazy.
The breach also needs to follow its description by having a higher range than the basic shotgun. Worse, the breach has a steeper falloff than the basic variant.
Something has to change. Either make the total health on Advanced and Prototype suits go down OR increase the damage on the high-damage, low-rate of fire, specialist weapons; the Shotgun, Nova Knives, and Sniper Rifle.
The "too accurate" part comes from misinterpretation based on the reticle. The spread isn't large enough, whether due to the weapon itself or from the Shotgun Operation skill (I have to test this), to fill the reticle. So, either the reticle needs it's size decreased to provide a better gauge for the player or it needs to fire with a larger spread to match it. It's a mechanical barrier that the player has to deal with caused by the UI and is completely, 100% unnecessary.
Useful Links
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
4948
|
Posted - 2014.02.17 03:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote:If I have sharpshooter 5 on a combat rifle or an assault rifle, I don't see my bullets dispersing to the full expansive area of the cross-hairs for those weapons. Why should the shotgun be any different?
OR should the reticle shrink for all the weapons that have dispersion reduction as skill bonuses? Should the Gallente Assault bonus make the Gallente weapons have a smaller one too?
Why not? IMO, the UI should be an accurate gauge and shouldn't be a mechanical fault in the representation on where a player's shots are going to land. We're not talking rifle weapons with point accuracies and crosshairs here, we're talking about a weapon that has a range of 20 meters and reduced spread with every level of Shotgun Operation but retains the same reticle regardless.
Apart from feeling like SG spread is something that a player should decide on, either by weapon upgrades (future) or by changing variants (breach, vanilla) I really don't think it's necessary for the UI to be an inaccuracy when it comes to firing at a target. This was the problem with the HMG in that it was too accurate, there wasn't enough spread to fill it's reticle so the UI (for lack of a better word) lied to the player; thus creating the psychological impact that they were missing. Which they were, but not for the reason one would expect.
Useful Links
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
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