[This thread assumes passive scanning will still detect cloaked players, as active scanners apparently will]

I'm very interested in skilling into the Caldari Scout because I like the scan range bonus and its shield regen, but in my mind it's scan precision bonus is horribly useless. It can already scan all suits above scouts, so obviously CCP's intent is for it to become a sort of anti-scout scout. But just look what it's up against:

Base scan profile starts at 35/ 31.5 w/ skills (Gal @ 22.75); precision starts at 45 (29.25 w/ Cal scout 5)

Dampeners reduce by .15/.2/.25; precision enhancers .1/.15/.2

Right off the bat, passive scanning takes last not only by a 26% difference, but with weaker modules to compensate. But we should also assume most scouts are going to attempt to dodge proto scanners, so let's see what those numbers are and how to beat them (w/ cloaks as well):

Min/Cal/Am lvl3 dampening and basic dampener:---- 27.965
w/ Cloak:-------------------------------------------------------- 19.31
To scan w/ lvl5 skills:-------------------------------------- 18.82 (1 cplx, 1 ehn precision)

That's 2 level 5 skills (3,420,120 SP, btw), and half of it's high with high meta mods to beat the bare minimum required to beat proto scans (205200 SP). Imagine if more skills were put into dampening and higher meta mods were used? Heck, don't even get me started on the Gal Scout:

Gal and dampening lvl 5:------------------------------------- 22.75
w/ cloak:--------------------------------------------------------- 17.06
To scan:------------------------------------------------------- Cry

I'm all for a tough rivalry between the Gal and Cal scout, but for the caldari scout to sacrifice so much just to match and undampened Gal scout is unfair and unbalanced in my opinion.

Now let's see what happens when we lower the precision to 40:

Level 5 Cal scout and precision:---------------------------- 26

There, the scout can effective be better than a proto scanner, fulfilling it's role as a counter scout. Now the other scouts actually have to try and dodge those scans:

Min/Cal/Am lvl3 dampening and 2 basic dampeners: 23.67
w/ cloak: -------------------------------------------------------- 17.56
Cal w/ lvl 5 skills:------------------------------------------- 17.40 (1cplx, 1ehn)

Does this still suck in comparison? Yes. This just shows how useless this bonus is. How could it hurt to implement this? I mean, at worst (for the enemy), it forces enemy scouts to use an extra low slot (not even a complex with lvl 5 dampening will block the 1cplx and 1 enh Caldari scan). And there's still the trouble with the Gal scout. With any dampener, it's a royal pain to scan, even uncloaked. So seriously, this can only help the Cal scout.

I don't think the numbers you have W/ Cloak is correct if W/cloak means with cloak attached.
The cloak has very little affect of profile size as thats not it's main role.

It will reduce the profile size by .25

Profile reduction by cloak.

I don't have much of a problem with the numbers. When I'm running my anti-scout Cal Scout, I might not be able to detect a Gal Scout (unless he has no extra dampeners and isn't cloaked), but he won't be able to detect me either, cloaked or uncloaked, unless he runs a focused scanner.

My biggest gripe is the cost of the precision modules. Complex precision enhancers are more expensive than complex shields, really? The price should be knocked down to the levels of dampeners and range amps - 3600ish ISK.

I would not call the passive scan bonus worthless.

Medium frames, and rarely the heavy, do run dampeners. The Caldari are the only ones who can scan a medium suit with a proto dampener without any mods. That's one less mod.

Against scouts it's never going to compete mod for mod, especially with cloaks giving the dampener bonus. But it will compete with most scouts who decide they only need a cloak or one dampener, just have to run that extra precision mod. Not every scout is going to be complete stealth, there will still be tanked scouts and speed scouts.

Scouts should be pretty much indetectable if they are focused on stealth, especially when their cloak is on. Anything that breaks that cripples them, even another scout. However if you're really worried run a focused scanner...you'll see most scouts, Gallente being exception, unless they are cloaked AND heavily dampened.

Scouts, especially Caldari, are going to play a much larger role in scanning then they did before. With the changes to active scanners their role is vital because they are the able to scan 360-¦ with decent range. They are going to be the first, most likely, to see an enemy, they then relay that to their squad as where to scan or just scan themselves. Scan angle on active scanners means you cannot waste scans so knowing where to scan is huge.

I would not call the passive scan bonus worthless.

Medium frames, and rarely the heavy, do run dampeners. The Caldari are the only ones who can scan a medium suit with a proto dampener without any mods. That's one less mod.

Against scouts it's never going to compete mod for mod, especially with cloaks giving the dampener bonus. But it will compete with most scouts who decide they only need a cloak or one dampener, just have to run that extra precision mod. Not every scout is going to be complete stealth, there will still be tanked scouts and speed scouts.

Scouts should be pretty much indetectable if they are focused on stealth, especially when their cloak is on. Anything that breaks that cripples them, even another scout. However if you're really worried run a focused scanner...you'll see most scouts, Gallente being exception, unless they are cloaked AND heavily dampened.

Scouts, especially Caldari, are going to play a much larger role in scanning then they did before. With the changes to active scanners their role is vital because they are the able to scan 360-¦ with decent range. They are going to be the first, most likely, to see an enemy, they then relay that to their squad as where to scan or just scan themselves. Scan angle on active scanners means you cannot waste scans so knowing where to scan is huge.

The cloak is equivalent to a complex dampener and I assumed it stacked under the same rules as the mods (that is the highest bonus is taken first while the lower takes the penalty, resulting in the highest possible bonus).

The equations are roughly:

w/o: 32.9-(3.29*.15)
w/: 32.9-(32.9*.25)-(32.9*(.15*.87))

This also assumes you get the dampening bonus from an activated cloak.


I'm not worried about he Gal scout, it's virtually undetectable without sacrificing a lot. But scanning the other scouts is a real pain, as I mentioned above, it take a crap ton of SP, mods, isk, and sacrifice to break even the most basic dampeners.

I'm already running my Gal scout with precision enhancers and range amps (giving me almost no extra tank, except perhaps a basic extender or reactive plate here or there), so doing so on a Cal or Gal scout in 1.8, along with the cloaking, should make things easy street.

Two complex precision enhancers on a Cal Scout will get precision down to 20.08dB, which means any non-Gal scouts would have to be cloaked AND running a complex dampener/Lvl 5 dampening to avoid my passive scans.

I'm going to guess that many Gal scouts won't be running additional dampeners if they're using the cloak, so the above would let me detect them when they uncloak as well.

Yes, but Gal scouts can easily dodge that with just a basic dampener. I'm all for having the Gal scout beat the Cal scout dampening wise, but not even 2 complex mods and 2 lvl 5 skills can come close to what the Gal scout can do with just a basic mod. They're supposed to be rivals, but there's literally no competition.

All I'm asking for is that CCP makes the role of the Cal scout a little more practical.

While that is true, the Gal scout can't hunt the Cal scout either (the max precision they can get is 26.77 dB). So Lvl 3 Dampening and one enhanced dampener means you would be invisible to Gal scout maxed passive scans.

Here are the numbers with complex precision enhancers if the suit value is changed from 45dB to 40dB:

4x Complex - 14.91dB
3x Complex - 15.81dB
2x Complex - 17.85dB
1x Complex - 21.6dB
0x Complex - 27dB

I think changing it to 40dB would make the precision too strong, since with just Lvl 5 bonus and no modules, your precision is already better than that of proto scans from non-Gal Logis.

And while the Cal Scout could become the veritable scout hunter, let's not forget that you won't even need precision modules to hunt most other suits, as Cal Scouts would have a passive 30.37 dB precision with Lvl 5 in the skill vs. the passive precision of at most, 40.5dB for other scouts.

Notice that, even with my buff, it takes 2 level 5 skills and 2 complex mods just to scan the minimally dampened scouts with cloaks. In the long run, I want dampening to out do scanning, but dampened scouts need to sacrifice slots and fitting space in order to do it.

And shouldn't spending 3mil SP into a specialist suit be more effective than a scanner that cost a fraction of that SP? Not to mention that active scanners have much more reliable results, 3x the range and can see through terrain.

I dunno. I think you are seeing it too much as Gal Scout vs. Cal Scout. If you consider non-Gal scouts, it does take a lot to dodge a Cal Scout's precision. Gal Scouts shouldn't need much to accomplish this, and the originally intended numbers work toward that regard.

In terms of active vs. passive scanning, passive scanning requires so much more investment because it has none of the flaws of active scanning, making it a whole lot better - so much so that suits skilling it up can still survive with minimal tank.