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Rei Shepard
The Rainbow Effect
1506
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Posted - 2014.01.27 08:23:00 -
[61] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:xxwhitedevilxx M wrote:Cause you might just get it.
Higher time to kill = harder to kill a PRO = more Protostomping = more people leaving. If the general TTK is raised then both will equally get longer.... this is a confusing concept how?
New players can't even track people for 1 second to kill them quickly, how is their aim going to be if they have to track a target for double that amount of time ?
Winner of the EU Squad Cup
"Go Go Power Rangers!"
"Accuracy"
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Yokal Bob
G.R.A.V.E INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
315
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Posted - 2014.01.27 08:30:00 -
[62] - Quote
hgghyujh wrote:Yokal Bob wrote:Atiim wrote:How about we raise TTK and scrap the whole MLT < STD < ADV < PRO idea and tiericide Dropsuits already? Then what would people have to work towards? the bonuses on the suit the weapons and modules and core skills, all of which is still tiered. Not to mention that their will be other suits to bonus up that are more powerful but more specialized.
And that's all you need in return for all that grinding? Sorry but we earned our proto suits
CPM1 candidate
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Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION
520
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Posted - 2014.01.27 08:42:00 -
[63] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:Or, you know, maybe it will actually put some distinction between who the assault roles are and who the support roles are. There is a fine balance you must find with TTK, too low and it requires no skill, too high and the best fits usually always win. We've experienced both ends of this in Dust, so now we need to find the balance in-between.
CCP#S way of balancing is sadly always going back to what was once imbalanced. CCP has a hang for BIG solutions. So I would expect a rather big change to TTK from them... |
m twiggz
Pradox One Proficiency V.
291
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Posted - 2014.01.27 08:51:00 -
[64] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Atiim wrote:How about we raise TTK and scrap the whole MLT < STD < ADV < PRO idea and tiericide Dropsuits already? I don't like the idea of tiercide simply because of reduced customization, and lack of something to look forward to for new players. When I started playing, i got stomped in every single match i was in, but i kept playing because i knew that one day i would have the gear to kill all of the people killing me Hmm, someone who actually understands the concept of SP sandbox games. Kudos. |
Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
1489
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Posted - 2014.01.27 17:03:00 -
[65] - Quote
hgghyujh wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:xxwhitedevilxx M wrote:Cause you wight just get it.
Higher time to kill = harder to kill a PRO = more Protostomping = more people leaving. This is true. Strafers and bunnyhoppers are licking their chops right now, quivering with maniacal and barely-contained noob bloodlust. If only CCP could take a look at the obviously failed matchmaker. To quote Richard Feynman on the matter: ' It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.' I think it's time to let this matchmaker go.
For those who like to point out that server population numbers are too low for our current matchmaker to work: If you were given access to all the stats CCP has, and with only pencil and paper and as much time as you needed(since you're not a superfast machine), could you pick a better roster than the matchmaker does? If your answer is yes then we're justified in holding the matchmaker to a higher standard. I wish people would stop this idiocy that is asking for a better match maker.......WE DO NOT HAVE THE PLAYER BASE!!!......Even the most perfectly omniscient god like matchmaking machine would be hard pressed to make balanced matches with the tiny play base we have, some hours of the day we can't even fill the matches we have. You want better balanced matches??? hope you like waiting 5-10 minutes for a match. Just stop waiting for matchmaking to fix things for us its not gonna happen until we get more players and that's not gonna happen until NPE isn't a pile of ****. so stop trying to defend your OP gear and lets ******* fix the god damn game for real. HEY CCP that means an academy that isn't ******* pointless would be helpful, how about leaving it as an option, after the current WP cap when they join every one else, until they achieve a certain WP/match average, cherry picked from their top 10-20 matches??? RUN ON ******* SENTENCES!!!!!!!! If the matchmaker is making atrocious decisions now with ~4000 concurrent players, it's in all likelihood going to make sub-optimal decisions with a larger playerbase.
Experienced mercs can look at the pre-match roster and often predict the match outcome with high probability because the lineups are butally lopsided. I think what this implies is that the matchmaker is not using all the information availiable to it.
Predictive inference is a hard problem and it often takes several attempts to identify the most predictive variables. In DUST we have many variables. Often good predictors are non-intuitive.
My two cents is that CCP and the playerbase would get good mileage from yet another pass on the matchmaker, provided they approached the problem rigourously and sought input from experts in predictive inference.
Matchmaking is a direct input to the NPE and is worth as much attention as we can give it.
I support SP rollover.
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Dauth Jenkins
Ultramarine Corp
1
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Posted - 2014.01.27 17:12:00 -
[66] - Quote
Darken-Soul wrote:Personally I would prefer to use my high and low slots for modules other than hp. But it won't save you cry babies. It will make me more deadly against your poor skills. If you don't get that you may when I can dampen my profile and increase my scans. Or regulate my shields and enhance my melee.
I'd be fine with people using damage mods and dampeners instead of armor plates and shield extenders, it means that if I get behind them I should be able to kill them, instead of them just turning around and murdering me with a Kal rail rifle. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
2993
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Posted - 2014.01.27 17:15:00 -
[67] - Quote
Forgive me for being naive, but how can tanked logis be OP, and scouts be UP in a game where low TTK is an issue? It strikes me as counter intuitive. Back when TTK was high we had the ridiculous dances of death, or had to make sure targets were more than 10m out of cover to have a chance of killing them.
These days you make a mistake and you're punished with death. Simple.
No.
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Callsign Grave
The Battleborn
21
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Posted - 2014.01.27 17:18:00 -
[68] - Quote
By extension of that Imagine a proto Amarr heavy...... |
Dauth Jenkins
Ultramarine Corp
1
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Posted - 2014.01.27 17:37:00 -
[69] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Forgive me for being naive, but how can tanked logis be OP, and scouts be UP in a game where low TTK is an issue? It strikes me as counter intuitive. Back when TTK was high we had the ridiculous dances of death, or had to make sure targets were more than 10m out of cover to have a chance of killing them.
These days you make a mistake and you're punished with death. Simple.
I run an advanced cal logi with 250 shields and maybe 240 armour. It's just enough to survive a firefight. And for those about to complain about my logi suit use, I happen to always run a logi, with an injector, a hive, and a rep tool. Logis need the health, as most people will aim at them, and not the heavy they are repping. |
Llast 326
An Arkhos
1624
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Posted - 2014.01.27 17:53:00 -
[70] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Forgive me for being naive, but how can tanked logis be OP, and scouts be UP in a game where low TTK is an issue? It strikes me as counter intuitive. Back when TTK was high we had the ridiculous dances of death, or had to make sure targets were more than 10m out of cover to have a chance of killing them.
These days you make a mistake and you're punished with death. Simple. That is not really a naive question at all. If we are looking at EHP as the factor for TTK then scouts do benefit from low TTK. They do to an extent, because everybody is dying almost as fast as them. Other factors come into play beyond EHP for TTK though, such as ability to dictate initiating an engagement, hit detection, alpha damage, maneuverability, and intel.
A Scout's survivability is not from EHP as much as from dictating the engagement (stealth), maneuverability, and intel. Scouts are (soon to be fixed it seems) UP because these survival methods were not well established for them. Lower slot count and fitting ability made accessing the abilities to dictate engagements a problem. AA and hit detection counters maneuverability. Intel was an issue with omniscient installations nullifying stealth, this was fixed, but low tac net range inhibited scouts abilities to know what they needed to know. This one was fixable but fitting out a scout to be able to see far enough, either through a scanner or passive scanning costs slots and CPU/PG that as pointed out is an issue. These are mostly what scouts wanted addressed rather than a HP increase. The changes that CCP has put in to scouts has addressed most of these issues.
I won't go into a long explanation of why Logi to be OP, but they do survive based on EHP, and have a higher slot count, and CPU/PG than any other suit, giving them more tank.
KRRROOOOOOM
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xxwhitedevilxx M
Maphia Clan Corporation
1568
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Posted - 2014.01.27 18:37:00 -
[71] - Quote
Llast 326 wrote:I won't go into a long explanation of why Logi to be OP, but they do survive based on EHP, and have a higher slot count, and CPU/PG than any other suit, giving them more tank.
Yes and no, I'll explain:
If you use a Logi as it should be used, it's pretty fine to have all those slots.
Cal Logi:
Should Be Shield Tank, so H: Shield Ext x4 and an Energizer L: CPU upgrade, PG Upgrade, Shield Reg x2 3 PRO Equipment, let's say PRO Hives, PRO Nanite Injector and PRO Rep. But, of course such a slot configuration is easily exploitable, of course, because if you don't equip PRO equipment, or avoid to equip more than 1 equipment you can free a lot of space for armor tanking.
Another incipit for discussion: longer TTK will make new Cal Scouts OP: I modified Dust fitting tool with new drop suits parameters, and Cal Scout can easily reach 1 sec shield recharge delay, 400+ shields, PRO Weapon, Scanner and cloak. Wouldn't it be OP with a long ttk? (considering the insane strafe it can get
Tank 514.
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Darken-Soul
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
184
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Posted - 2014.01.27 18:56:00 -
[72] - Quote
Dauth Jenkins wrote:Darken-Soul wrote:Personally I would prefer to use my high and low slots for modules other than hp. But it won't save you cry babies. It will make me more deadly against your poor skills. If you don't get that you may when I can dampen my profile and increase my scans. Or regulate my shields and enhance my melee. I'd be fine with people using damage mods and dampeners instead of armor plates and shield extenders, it means that if I get behind them I should be able to kill them, instead of them just turning around and murdering me with a Kal rail rifle. I have no problem with people running proto. They put in the time and effort for it, so why not. It's just that right now it's hard to be competitive without running advanced weapons. That said, mlt shotgun sets are actually pretty effective right now.
you don't realize what you are saying. You want ttk to be low for you but high for your enemy. You want to be able to kill them before they can react. But in the off chance they can react you want ttk to be lower so you can react. You can't have both.
I am the real Darken
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Llast 326
An Arkhos
1626
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Posted - 2014.01.27 20:29:00 -
[73] - Quote
xxwhitedevilxx M wrote:Llast 326 wrote:I won't go into a long explanation of why Logi to be OP, but they do survive based on EHP, and have a higher slot count, and CPU/PG than any other suit, giving them more tank. Yes and no, I'll explain: If you use a Logi as it should be used, it's pretty fine to have all those slots. Cal Logi: Should Be Shield Tank, so H: Shield Ext x4 and an Energizer L: CPU upgrade, PG Upgrade, Shield Reg x2 3 PRO Equipment, let's say PRO Hives, PRO Nanite Injector and PRO Rep. But, of course such a slot configuration is easily exploitable, of course, because if you don't equip PRO equipment, or avoid to equip more than 1 equipment you can free a lot of space for armor tanking. Better explanation than i could have given and far more succinct.
xxwhitedevilxx M wrote:Another incipit for discussion: longer TTK will make new Cal Scouts OP: I modified Dust fitting tool with new drop suits parameters, and Cal Scout can easily reach 1 sec shield recharge delay, 400+ shields, PRO Weapon, Scanner and cloak. Wouldn't it be OP with a long ttk? (considering the insane strafe it can get Would it be OP with a long time to kill? It has potential, depends on what is the length of longer though, and how the longer is achieved. If we are looking at the extreme of long TTK, I would say yes. Shields become much more important with longer time to kill, with a shorter time to kill they are less effective. Right now with short TTK we see more armour tanking, see the Cal Logi you described. With a balanced TTK shields and armour should both be viable. Stealth, maneuverability, EHP tanking, and intel, should play parts in how TTK balances as they all affect the balance, like I said in a previous post, it is not an easy thing to do. Love this thread BTW, some really interesting dialogue here. Wish I had more time to articulate myself properly
KRRROOOOOOM
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