Please rethink this. Slayer-logis are more incentivised more than ever in light of the nerf, and being a proper logi is discouraged. In short, it's more rewarding to be a slayer logi than to be a proper logi with all the bonuses.

As I said, please rethink this really could be the downfall of the true logis. Many true logis are saying they would rather lose their light weapon slot than lose their equipment.

I just wish the nanite count wasn't nerfed so hard it's the only thing that keeps my Gallente suits alive :(

They've successfully killed the logi's class. I agree, that the current equipment stats should have stayed the same. Even with the racial bonus' added in, none of it would be "op". In fact, the better rep tools and rep hives would help keep people alive, exending ttk. The snapshot for the scanner was needed, but the cool down time does nothing but encourage me to carry 2 scanners. None of the other equipment should have changed. All they've done, is made the equipment overall less effective, so more of it needs to be spammed to compensate.

Time to stack armor plates and dmg mods.

Please rethink this. Slayer-logis are more incentivised more than ever in light of the nerf, and being a proper logi is discouraged. In short, it's more rewarding to be a slayer logi than to be a proper logi with all the bonuses.

As I said, please rethink this really could be the downfall of the true logis. Many true logis are saying they would rather lose their light weapon slot than lose their equipment.

They didn't hurt all Logis, just the support ones.

And again no.....

They created specialisation into the Logi role.
Killed the Logi Slayers.
Bring balance to equipements.
Nerfed the "grenade" spam.
Nerfed the Op scanner.

No more "i'm a god with all equipements because **** YOU".

Now it's i can do : that / that / that BUT my speciality IS.

Way better.

Somehow I feel like I'm getting hurt as well by this, and I'm a heavy... Who the hell is going to go Minmatar logi now that their hack speed bonus is going to be taken away (if what my friends said was to be believed) and all they get is a lousy repair bonus... My boyfriend, who was going to go proto Minmatar logi is giving up on it when he was originally going to logi for me and be able to hack insanely fast. Most of the people that I play with are quitting the logi class as well, saying that they are demanding a respec with this and switching to the assault class instead.

Well, unless they leave it the same as they are in 1.7, any logi who has already spent the points in both reptard tools and minmatar logi will still be able to help you quite well. Btw this is the one tool that I have foregone as a Logi because there are so many other ways to be better support that to follow around a heavy it is not even funny. I prefer the Minmatar hacking bonus as a Logi bonus on the minmatar suit and feel it fits better.

Incorrect. The logi had the core focused repair tool that as of 1.7 could barely keep a heavy alive vs a well matched team. The range meant that the logi was always in the line of fire and also meant that there was 1 less gun shooting at the enemy. With nerfed ranges and repair I will barely be able to keep up and will be so into the line of fire I might as well be shooting.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. A repair tool should be better at keeping people alive than a weapon. If this is not true in 1.8 all you will see is either an exodus of the logi class or slayer logi's all around because it will be better to shoot and patch things up later than try and rep and everyone die.

The heavies got the measly resistance bonus but guess what; apart from being a full proto support logi I am also a full proto sentinel heavy and can tell you how much of a pain it is to be killed faster than I can turn around with 1700 hp. A nerf to repair tool will be bad no matter what.

that's only part of the story. the new bonuses to suits will make the equipment far better than now.

wouldnt it have just been easier to remove/nerf the tank ability of all the logi suits? instead of nerfing equipment?

Please rethink this. Slayer-logis are more incentivised more than ever in light of the nerf, and being a proper logi is discouraged. In short, it's more rewarding to be a slayer logi than to be a proper logi with all the bonuses.

As I said, please rethink this really could be the downfall of the true logis. Many true logis are saying they would rather lose their light weapon slot than lose their equipment.

agreed.... bumpage. Ima throw this up in the registry that cool?

No. (As a Logi)
Just think more than 2 sec please.
Changements on ALL suits is happening.
Weapons will CERTAINELY receive some nerf.
The purpose is to increase TTK.
Heavy is receiving resistance.
The CPU/PG bonus to logi means than Logi suits going to receive at least 25% less base PG/CPU.
You're able to fit heavy equipements but no more heavy modules / weapons.

Logi Slayer problem : Ruled.


Repair tool is a REPAIR TOOL not something that give "god mod" to the one you repair you're supposzed to REPAIR your allies not making him able to tank extra damage.
Maybe we're going someday to have a Tool that creates "shields" for allies and protect them from fire but here it's NOT the purpose.

The nerf of the repair tool is JUSTIFIED.
The purpose is to make the "Medic" role a REAL role because right now ALL logi is repairing and do it with great efficacity the Focused Core repair tool is REALLY easy to fit and almost all Logi can fit it.
The repair tool is one of the equipements that takes the less PG/CPU.
Proto Focused : 10PG.
Drop uplinks STD : 9 PG.
After the "nerf" every logi can still repair with GREAT efficacity BUT if you want to be specialized into it then you go Minmatarr.

Now if you want to be a logi specialized on repairing you go Minmatarr.
You want to be specialized on ressuply ? Go Caldari.
You want to be a Reco unit ? Go Gallente.
You want to.....set the spawn (yes it sucks) you go Amarr.

It creates VERSABILITY into the Logi role.
No more MacGyver overspecialized in EVERYTHING now you're still useful with everything BUT with a speciality.
(Exemple in Battlefield Medic and Support are diffrent classes).
This "nerf" is in fact one of the best Class Revamp maded since a LONG time.

Stop thinking "OH NO they nerf my gun/equipement/suit" and try to think more "global".

CCP this is really NICE stuff you bring there.
Logi specialization is Perfect : Honestly GG.


To slayer Logi : It's Over for you now.
The 25% bonus on equipements for Logi also means a HUGE nerf to PG/CPU.
Now logi is able to fit LOOOOOOT of equipements easily.
But not able anymore to make fit as powerful than assault because module and weapons still takes lot of PG/CPU.
Stacking armor plates and damage mod is OVER in Logi suits.

Now it's time to nerf Armor Modules / Damage mod.
Buff a little ferroscales/reactives.

And nerf weapons TTK.

Fittings examples, without relying on skill bonuses or it didn't happen.
I've been asking for this for months and it's largely been unheeded.

1. Choose a race
2. Build an assault fit (or heavy or scout if you like but those are less directly comparable)
3. Build a Logi fit trying to match the stats of your fit from #2 in all metrics before specializing into any one area, such as eHP or DPS, more heavily.
4. Fill your equipment slots with an assortment of proto
5. If you have any fittings resources left add additional mods as able
6. Tally the required SP and ISK costs to field each fitting.
Then post your fittings side by side for everyone to see.

I don't claim to be a fittings "god" or somehow "super leet" but the simple fact is I have yet to encounter a fitting, using the unmodified equipment/weapon/frame values which can demonstrably indicate the current logi layout is superior.
If you can provide say, a couple of examples (or even one) from each race then lets have a discussion about those cases and see what can be figured out. Until then I'm going to continue to ask for solid proof that there is a problem with the current suit stats/layout.

0.02 ISK
Cross

They did both

And again no.....

They created specialisation into the Logi role.
Killed the Logi Slayers.
Bring balance to equipements.
Nerfed the "grenade" spam.
Nerfed the Op scanner.

No more "i'm a god with all equipements because **** YOU".

Now it's i can do : that / that / that BUT my speciality IS.

Way better.

"Logi Slayers" will just move on to Assault suits... We are stuck with our new novelty suits, that now have-

-less HP
-less speed
-less stamina
-less damage

-than assault suits. Scout suits are also getting two equipment slots, giving them the ability to cut in on our business. And to top it all off, the only thing we are apparently ever supposed to do (equipment) is getting nerfed so hard, that even with specialized bonuses that increase its potency, it won't perform at the same level it does today.

1.8:

Nerf to Logi suits
Buff to all other suits
Slayer Logis move on, and support logis get stuck with a ****** suit.

Slayer logis can just ignore fitting equipment at all so they can fit more proto modules. Just like now. That hasn't changed.

Now support logis will only be useful by carrying one piece of equipment, since all the equipment is getting nerfed. You need suit bonuses to even approach the equipment levels we have now. Support logis just got slammed.

"IT IS NERFED OMFG LOLOLOLOL."

"Logi Slayers" will just move on to Assault suits... We are stuck with our new novelty suits, that now have-

-less HP
-less speed
-less stamina
-less damage

-than assault suits. Scout suits are also getting two equipment slots, giving them the ability to cut in on our business. And to top it all off, the only thing we are apparently ever supposed to do (equipment) is getting nerfed so hard, that even with specialized bonuses that increase its potency, it won't perform at the same level it does today.

1.8:

Nerf to Logi suits
Buff to all other suits
Slayer Logis move on, and support logis get stuck with a ****** suit.

that's only part of the story. the new bonuses to suits will make the equipment barely better than now, but only 1 type of equipment.

Incorrect. The logi had the core focused repair tool that as of 1.7 could barely keep a heavy alive vs a well matched team. The range meant that the logi was always in the line of fire and also meant that there was 1 less gun shooting at the enemy. With nerfed ranges and repair I will barely be able to keep up and will be so into the line of fire I might as well be shooting.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. A repair tool should be better at keeping people alive than a weapon. If this is not true in 1.8 all you will see is either an exodus of the logi class or slayer logi's all around because it will be better to shoot and patch things up later than try and rep and everyone die.

The heavies got the measly resistance bonus but guess what; apart from being a full proto support logi I am also a full proto sentinel heavy and can tell you how much of a pain it is to be killed faster than I can turn around with 1700 hp. A nerf to repair tool will be bad no matter what.

that's only part of the story. the new bonuses to suits will make the equipment far better than now.

equipment better...think not. the suit bonus brings a single type of equipment back to near pre 1.8 stats while the rest are nerfed. add to this that if we do fit that so called "better" equipment our suit cost go up by about 50k. add that to my already 1-200k isk suits all while they make the logi suits weaker and combat suits stronger.

No. (As a Logi)
Just think more than 2 sec please.
Changements on ALL suits is happening.
Weapons will CERTAINELY receive some nerf.
The purpose is to increase TTK.
Heavy is receiving resistance.
The CPU/PG bonus to logi means than Logi suits going to receive at least 25% less base PG/CPU.
You're able to fit heavy equipements but no more heavy modules / weapons.

Logi Slayer problem : Ruled.


Repair tool is a REPAIR TOOL not something that give "god mod" to the one you repair you're supposzed to REPAIR your allies not making him able to tank extra damage.
Maybe we're going someday to have a Tool that creates "shields" for allies and protect them from fire but here it's NOT the purpose.

The nerf of the repair tool is JUSTIFIED.
The purpose is to make the "Medic" role a REAL role because right now ALL logi is repairing and do it with great efficacity the Focused Core repair tool is REALLY easy to fit and almost all Logi can fit it.
The repair tool is one of the equipements that takes the less PG/CPU.
Proto Focused : 10PG.
Drop uplinks STD : 9 PG.
After the "nerf" every logi can still repair with GREAT efficacity BUT if you want to be specialized into it then you go Minmatarr.

Now if you want to be a logi specialized on repairing you go Minmatarr.
You want to be specialized on ressuply ? Go Caldari.
You want to be a Reco unit ? Go Gallente.
You want to.....set the spawn (yes it sucks) you go Amarr.

It creates VERSABILITY into the Logi role.
No more MacGyver overspecialized in EVERYTHING now you're still useful with everything BUT with a speciality.
(Exemple in Battlefield Medic and Support are diffrent classes).
This "nerf" is in fact one of the best Class Revamp maded since a LONG time.

Stop thinking "OH NO they nerf my gun/equipement/suit" and try to think more "global".

CCP this is really NICE stuff you bring there.
Logi specialization is Perfect : Honestly GG.


To slayer Logi : It's Over for you now.
The 25% bonus on equipements for Logi also means a HUGE nerf to PG/CPU.
Now logi is able to fit LOOOOOOT of equipements easily.
But not able anymore to make fit as powerful than assault because module and weapons still takes lot of PG/CPU.
Stacking armor plates and damage mod is OVER in Logi suits.

Now it's time to nerf Armor Modules / Damage mod.
Buff a little ferroscales/reactives.

And nerf weapons TTK.

No.
As i said like ten damn times !!!!!!
PG/CPU of Logi suits gonna be heavily Nerf.
The Equipement bonus makes you able to fit almost what you want on equipements BUT even if not fitting equipements you will not be able to fit several complex mods.
At the end with the base penality stats you will be less powerful than if you were Assault.
=> No point about playing like an assault in a logi suits => Logi slayers go Assault slayers => End of the story.

And even with the nerf Equipement are still REALLY powerful you should just read all the stats.
And if you have Level 5 of your equipements you're better than NOW.
Read the Stats BEFORE complaining or just read 2 numbers and just say

equipment doesnt need a nerf in quality. thats just stupid the quality is fine. what needs nerfing is QUANTITY!. except for res. i want to see more quantity with them.
we could either nerf logi suits tank ability in what they could fit on the suit via slots. or they can lose the light weapon and get a side arm only instead.
with the quantity nerf. which the only intention for it is to kill spam.

Please rethink this. Slayer-logis are more incentivised more than ever in light of the nerf, and being a proper logi is discouraged. In short, it's more rewarding to be a slayer logi than to be a proper logi with all the bonuses.

As I said, please rethink this really could be the downfall of the true logis. Many true logis are saying they would rather lose their light weapon slot than lose their equipment.

So a logi can't kill? Go play COD. All players are slayer logis there. Get your head out of the sand, I can't deploy equipment for you if I am dead now can I?

Wow, ok. You are right on the mark with that one, I also can't rep you if I am dead is another thing to consider. Just because a Logi kills you doesn't mean that they are playing a slayer logi, it just means that they are assisting their heavy in finishing you off.

Too many times "slayer logis" are accused of being used to run around and do nothing but kill. Sadly this is not actually the case but rather they are laying links, hives and providing scans for people that need them. This is a fact, and while people see they are killed by a logi who is not in fact repping a heavy, they forget that there is more than just a rep tool in a logi's arsenal. There are also REs, Proxies, Links, Hives, Scan Tools, Nanite Injectors, and ...Rep Tools. On my proto logi suit I can't even spawn with all of those equipment items at once and need separate suits for different purposes. The Logistics class is the Swiss Army Knife of Dust, not the Broadsword or Chain Gun you make it out to be.

its not that hard ive ran the logi before.

might have been a cheap one but its still a logi.

my main problem is the spam itself.

mainly uplink and nanohive spam.

No. (As a Logi)
Just think more than 2 sec please.
Changements on ALL suits is happening.
Weapons will CERTAINELY receive some nerf.
The purpose is to increase TTK.
Heavy is receiving resistance.
The CPU/PG bonus to logi means than Logi suits going to receive at least 25% less base PG/CPU.
You're able to fit heavy equipements but no more heavy modules / weapons.

Logi Slayer problem : Ruled.


Repair tool is a REPAIR TOOL not something that give "god mod" to the one you repair you're supposzed to REPAIR your allies not making him able to tank extra damage.
Maybe we're going someday to have a Tool that creates "shields" for allies and protect them from fire but here it's NOT the purpose.

The nerf of the repair tool is JUSTIFIED.
The purpose is to make the "Medic" role a REAL role because right now ALL logi is repairing and do it with great efficacity the Focused Core repair tool is REALLY easy to fit and almost all Logi can fit it.
The repair tool is one of the equipements that takes the less PG/CPU.
Proto Focused : 10PG.
Drop uplinks STD : 9 PG.
After the "nerf" every logi can still repair with GREAT efficacity BUT if you want to be specialized into it then you go Minmatarr.

Now if you want to be a logi specialized on repairing you go Minmatarr.
You want to be specialized on ressuply ? Go Caldari.
You want to be a Reco unit ? Go Gallente.
You want to.....set the spawn (yes it sucks) you go Amarr.

It creates VERSABILITY into the Logi role.
No more MacGyver overspecialized in EVERYTHING now you're still useful with everything BUT with a speciality.
(Exemple in Battlefield Medic and Support are diffrent classes).
This "nerf" is in fact one of the best Class Revamp maded since a LONG time.

Stop thinking "OH NO they nerf my gun/equipement/suit" and try to think more "global".

CCP this is really NICE stuff you bring there.
Logi specialization is Perfect : Honestly GG.


To slayer Logi : It's Over for you now.
The 25% bonus on equipements for Logi also means a HUGE nerf to PG/CPU.
Now logi is able to fit LOOOOOOT of equipements easily.
But not able anymore to make fit as powerful than assault because module and weapons still takes lot of PG/CPU.
Stacking armor plates and damage mod is OVER in Logi suits.

Now it's time to nerf Armor Modules / Damage mod.
Buff a little ferroscales/reactives.

And nerf weapons TTK.

The only equipment that doesn't scale well with rewards are injectors. Another thing too is with CCP trying to increase TTK by nerfing damage mods, skills, and rifles, you'll see repair tools make a better case for itself.

Equipment is so powerful in turning games, its one of the top deciding factor behind tanks and teamwork, though its wp potential is through the roof compared to any other role, it doesn't compare at all.

I can jump into a match in a bpo suit with nothing but proto uplinks, comple hacking mods, and a militia ScP and get 2000 wps, hacking and channel blues into the appropriate areas, that alone is a full time role, let alone a suit that has 2 other pieces of equipment to roll with.

Hiding/protecting uplinks is extremely easy with just basic common sense, on the newer non fishbowl maps, placing an uplink away from the center of the map (away from commonly traversed areas) and within 120-150 m of an objective keeps it out of scanning range from both passive and active. For the fishbowl maps its less so with hiding and more so with having it next to the front line or having them in a very awkward place, there is something to be said with throwaway dropships and uplinks. So I know your uplink bit is a little overdone, they would still be quite feasible given the changes.

The logi bonus essentially gives them 1 free or 1 66% cpu/pg equipment item, equipment is thy most costly thing fitting wise in the game, and 3 equipment slots plus a ton of modules gives the logi plenty to do running the fit the entire match, being able to pew pew while doing it.

I would also say its a bit of a red herring to say that the changes done to the logi were a proposed fixed to equipment spam, its not, its bad now and most likely be bad after 1.8.

Your assessment has some holes in it, for example regarding the scaling of potential WP earnings within the Equipment line, this thread started in closed beta explains how broken it is (some bits of gear more than others granted, links for example are in a much better place than injectors or reppers), the progression simply does not match the risk v reward ratio established by things like the light weapon line(s).
For the record, reppers will earn less under the new system unless/until CCP changes how WPs are assigned to a "X HP healed = Y WP earned" method. Anything else and every bump to repping is a decrease to earnings potential.

Equipment is not a role. While support roles are heavily defined by equipment use nearly all suits may fit equipment and the types of equipment range widely in effect/purpose; Scout with RE + Cloak, Assault with hives, Logi with scans + reps + needle. Classifying an entire type of gear in this manner is so broad as to lose real meaning, one can as easily say "Light Weapons are so powerful in turning games, its one of the top deciding factor behind (supporting) tanks and teamwork" or "HAVs are so powerful in turning games...." etc. There isn't much of a case to be made for the apples to oranges comparison/contention that equipment is a more potent force the DPS of light weapons, the eHP of defensive mods or the diverse stopping power of a well fit HAV. Each of them when used effectively can provide great effect, when used together this is even more true, a firefight between two equally skilled and fitted players can be decided by a well placed nanohive, that doesn't make the nano highly powerful it simply means the gear is providing an edge which tipped an otherwise equal balance. Potential earnings without consideration of investment and risk aren't a complete picture by any stretch but even on raw WP earnings alone a HAV eclipses equipment use and does so without being heavily dependent on the actions of teammates.

I pulled down consistent +1000 WP scores during closed beta in BPO suits (scout + SMG) focusing on hacking alone.
Add codebreakers (which are not part of the equipment line) and I'd have had even higher average earnings. You are correct it's a full time role, even without equipment, are you proposing that an effective full time role shouldn't be able to potentially earn 2000 WP in a match?

Some of this might be true if spamming links, which these changes won't stop, weren't a thing but spamming does happen and will continue. If you drop a link +100m off an objective to avoid scans someone spamming links closer to the objective will pull the spawns and your earnings potential drops steeply. Beyond that even links placed a jog away from the battle can be compromised by one player spawning in and calling a LAV on the spot or attacking directly from the link and giving away it's vector. A red with a scanner will find and pop that link pretty quickly in cases like that.
The simple fact is that making uplinks mechanically weaker won't stop spam, and from a risk v reward angle it will actually increase the incentive for it.

When you account for the lost fittings values of the skills being removed in 1.8 the net effect is a decrease in overall fittings resources on fittings that run with every equipment slot filled. This loss is even deeper for those logistics suits which have fewer total equipment slots on the frame, thus both being a nerf to the entire line and a distortion on racial balance within it.

My point, is that the changes in 1.8 when taken collectively will lend themselves to more spam not less. It was a concern raised by the poster I was responding to and thus I addressed it. I make no claims regarding the intent CCP for making these changes, in point of fact I've been asking for them to clearly post a statement of intent so that no one has to assume or guess.

PS ~ For those keeping score, Logistics support in EVE is a more deeply in combat role with direct implications during firefights not after and that's without fittings aggressive weapons/mods on many logi fits. Further the general type of tactical roles that equipment fills in Dust are much more diverse within EVE and there are entire ship lines devoted to the various aspects.

EVE manages to find balance for 'equipment' and support by offering a wide array of options and player driven choices, not by nerfing players into pre-fab boxes without diverse options for valid top level fittings. 1.8 by the looks of it so far goes in the opposite direction of the robust offerings provided by New Eden hitherto, seeming to lean towards homogeny over innovation/player choice. Even if such a trend may make balance easier it isn't required for balance to exist and doesn't benefit the long term health/value of the game.

Logi got a utility nerf, thus logis who don't stay equipment heavy get less out of their bonus, and will otherwise feel the bite, also it is undeniable that logis were thy best suits in the game, hence why over 50% of the entire dust population prior to the announcement of 1.8 ran logis. Their versatility is being directed to focusing on equipment use, no one is denying that, but to claim that its broken or not usable when the are thy best at their primary function, which as we gone over is still quite valid, while still being able to shoot and kill with the same weapons appears more to be over dramatic, and FotM defending.

That still remains to be seen, especially when intentionally lag bombing as a frequent tactic on city maps, it really can't go beyond that, I believe uplinks will actually become more strategic and less spam with these changes because longer times means less trench holding prowess and more intelligent locations, while nanos might actually increase in spam but will have a quicker decay rate.

I agree that it should be used to tank while in combat, if there are any disagreeing with that point them out.

I can actually pull up the logistic ships in EVE, you'll find they have even less combat prowess than dust logis and are in fact focused on equipment more so than logis in 1.7. The logi class is actually much much closer to EVE logi ships in 1.8 than they are now, for the idea of boxing you in, your not, the choices are still there, I've also heard the exact same piece from tac ars and flaylocks as well, and with the nature of the game things can come back around and will be modified again to re balance again.

Then appearances are deceiving you.

Upon what do you base that belief? I presented some of my own reasoning on the subject and I don't see it refuted above. If you content that longer spawn times means more tactical deployment of uplinks detail a case for why that would be. Including a specific address to the effects of scanners, flux nades, players with spam swap suits, and the reasons a decreased overall function will result in more players including links on their standard deployment fits.

The perception is largely based off on the war barge, usually 7-10 out of 16 is fielding a logi into a match, and what I kill on the field. 50-60% of our player base doesn't play logi because its a good team support suit, they play it because it has comparable numbers to the assault to where you are losing only a little bit compared to the assault stats in exchange for the huge boost in equipment utility, TTK is short enough to where a single light weapon can get you by. So while they may be ranked 8 in combat prowess compared to the assaults 9, but their equipment/support potentially blows the assault apart entirely, which is why they are fielded so often, that and the huge wp gains of equipment which translate to faster isk and sp.

Uplink trenching is only a valid tactic assuming you can consistently pop back into the field in 2 to 3 seconds, barring this, the trench gets broken fast and you just get spawned camped, compared to now which you can field 4-6 guys constantly even if you drop them over and over because they can recreate that trench again with a 2 sec spawn. A weakening in dropuplinks trench abilities are what I justified my belief that they will be less likely to be spammed in the future, and by less I don't mean like a large drop, just a small drop. if People want to lag bomb, they are still free to do it, its just that large amount of uplinks won't have the same trench abilities as before.

Now to keep this shorter, the rest of what you wrote translates to EVE does not equal Dust, which I agree with you, I also have no issues with logis killing things, but I do think your undercutting what logis can do, and what they still will be able to do in 1.8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCx2o7JGWG8

Here is a clear example of repair tool being used in a pure tanking scenario, the wp potential, and again with an increased TTK, this will become more powerful

After a while they got some massive fleet going and tried to push us out (sorry for the lag, should have deactivated some effects beforehand). The fight was going well, until three Basilisks entered the field and we were unable to deliver damage to break their repairs.