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Oswald Rehnquist
1196
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Posted - 2014.01.31 09:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
[edit bubble: I think I'm addressing multiple people in this post :end edit bubble]
I fully expect to draw ire from this but I kinda think this is being a little over dramatic
Equipment is so powerful in turning games, its one of the top deciding factor behind tanks and teamwork, though its wp potential is through the roof compared to any other role, it doesn't compare at all.
I can jump into a match in a bpo suit with nothing but proto uplinks, comple hacking mods, and a militia ScP and get 2000 wps, hacking and channel blues into the appropriate areas, that alone is a full time role, let alone a suit that has 2 other pieces of equipment to roll with.
Hiding/protecting uplinks is extremely easy with just basic common sense, on the newer non fishbowl maps, placing an uplink away from the center of the map (away from commonly traversed areas) and within 120-150 m of an objective keeps it out of scanning range from both passive and active. For the fishbowl maps its less so with hiding and more so with having it next to the front line or having them in a very awkward place, there is something to be said with throwaway dropships and uplinks. So I know your uplink bit is a little overdone, they would still be quite feasible given the changes.
The only equipment that doesn't scale well with rewards are injectors. Another thing too is with CCP trying to increase TTK by nerfing damage mods, skills, and rifles, you'll see repair tools make a better case for itself.
I would also say its a bit of a red herring to say that the changes done to the logi were a proposed fixed to equipment spam, its not, its bad now and most likely be bad after 1.8.
So essentially the only problems with equipment after these changes are 1) backwards rewards for injectors 2) Equipment spam
The logi bonus essentially gives them 1 free or 1 66% cpu/pg equipment item, equipment is thy most costly thing fitting wise in the game, and 3 equipment slots plus a ton of modules gives the logi plenty to do running the fit the entire match, being able to pew pew while doing it.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1198
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Posted - 2014.01.31 20:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Your assessment has some holes in it, for example regarding the scaling of potential WP earnings within the Equipment line, this thread started in closed beta explains how broken it is (some bits of gear more than others granted, links for example are in a much better place than injectors or reppers), the progression simply does not match the risk v reward ratio established by things like the light weapon line(s). For the record, reppers will earn less under the new system unless/until CCP changes how WPs are assigned to a "X HP healed = Y WP earned" method. Anything else and every bump to repping is a decrease to earnings potential.
The higher meta level your rep tool the faster you get wps and the easier it is for your receiver to stay alive, I've seen this in videos and practice. Couple this with a TTK increase and the power of the rep tool inadvertedly has more lasting wp potentially being able to use it to help suits continually tank under heavy sustained fire. The faster the cycle the faster the wps that are earned.
Cross Atu wrote: Equipment is not a role. While support roles are heavily defined by equipment use nearly all suits may fit equipment and the types of equipment range widely in effect/purpose; Scout with RE + Cloak, Assault with hives, Logi with scans + reps + needle. Classifying an entire type of gear in this manner is so broad as to lose real meaning, one can as easily say "Light Weapons are so powerful in turning games, its one of the top deciding factor behind (supporting) tanks and teamwork" or "HAVs are so powerful in turning games...." etc. There isn't much of a case to be made for the apples to oranges comparison/contention that equipment is a more potent force the DPS of light weapons, the eHP of defensive mods or the diverse stopping power of a well fit HAV. Each of them when used effectively can provide great effect, when used together this is even more true, a firefight between two equally skilled and fitted players can be decided by a well placed nanohive, that doesn't make the nano highly powerful it simply means the gear is providing an edge which tipped an otherwise equal balance. Potential earnings without consideration of investment and risk aren't a complete picture by any stretch but even on raw WP earnings alone a HAV eclipses equipment use and does so without being heavily dependent on the actions of teammates.
People expect light weapons to be powerful, comparing the power of equipment to weapons was just my point, its powerful, and like weapons you can choose your role based on the equipment you bring, thus you have great flexibility in what you do. Equipment spam is done because of the huge effect equipment has, it wouldn't be done if it had no effect, uplinks, scanners, and nanos are huge, they keep the trench give exact movement, and keep you fighting longer. The WP potentially is also second to none, which is in itself a plus.
Cross Atu wrote: I pulled down consistent +1000 WP scores during closed beta in BPO suits (scout + SMG) focusing on hacking alone. Add codebreakers (which are not part of the equipment line) and I'd have had even higher average earnings. You are correct it's a full time role, even without equipment, are you proposing that an effective full time role shouldn't be able to potentially earn 2000 WP in a match?
You are inventing your own demons on this one, perhaps I didn't elaborate, my point was that with one piece of equipment and a few mods, battle utility and wp potential with one equipment let alone 3 pieces equipment is still there, that logis will still be the wp champs in the game along with it being a full time role pending on which equipment your using was to point out that its not just a suit you start with and then ditch sort of scenario, its constantly needed in battle
Cross Atu wrote: Some of this might be true if spamming links, which these changes won't stop, weren't a thing but spamming does happen and will continue. If you drop a link +100m off an objective to avoid scans someone spamming links closer to the objective will pull the spawns and your earnings potential drops steeply. Beyond that even links placed a jog away from the battle can be compromised by one player spawning in and calling a LAV on the spot or attacking directly from the link and giving away it's vector. A red with a scanner will find and pop that link pretty quickly in cases like that. The simple fact is that making uplinks mechanically weaker won't stop spam, and from a risk v reward angle it will actually increase the incentive for it.
All of what I said about uplinks is true and yes a dumb blue that doesn't leave an uplink can give it away, but at 130 m out they run up a bit first like 90% of the time, plus uplinks are not suppose to be 100% infallible, what you are talking about is absolute immunity which is not reasonable. I'll just put it to you this way, once I drop my 3 proto uplinks next to each objective, rarely do I have to replace them, and in fact the longevity I get from them actually means I get more wp from them than anyone else due to them being destroyed.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1198
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Posted - 2014.01.31 20:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote: When you account for the lost fittings values of the skills being removed in 1.8 the net effect is a decrease in overall fittings resources on fittings that run with every equipment slot filled. This loss is even deeper for those logistics suits which have fewer total equipment slots on the frame, thus both being a nerf to the entire line and a distortion on racial balance within it.
Logi got a utility nerf, thus logis who don't stay equipment heavy get less out of their bonus, and will otherwise feel the bite, also it is undeniable that logis were thy best suits in the game, hence why over 50% of the entire dust population prior to the announcement of 1.8 ran logis. Their versatility is being directed to focusing on equipment use, no one is denying that, but to claim that its broken or not usable when the are thy best at their primary function, which as we gone over is still quite valid, while still being able to shoot and kill with the same weapons appears more to be over dramatic, and FotM defending.
Cross Atu wrote: My point, is that the changes in 1.8 when taken collectively will lend themselves to more spam not less. It was a concern raised by the poster I was responding to and thus I addressed it. I make no claims regarding the intent CCP for making these changes, in point of fact I've been asking for them to clearly post a statement of intent so that no one has to assume or guess.
That still remains to be seen, especially when intentionally lag bombing as a frequent tactic on city maps, it really can't go beyond that, I believe uplinks will actually become more strategic and less spam with these changes because longer times means less trench holding prowess and more intelligent locations, while nanos might actually increase in spam but will have a quicker decay rate.
Cross Atu wrote: PS ~ For those keeping score, Logistics support in EVE is a more deeply in combat role with direct implications during firefights not after and that's without fittings aggressive weapons/mods on many logi fits. Further the general type of tactical roles that equipment fills in Dust are much more diverse within EVE and there are entire ship lines devoted to the various aspects.
I agree that it should be used to tank while in combat, if there are any disagreeing with that point them out.
Cross Atu wrote: EVE manages to find balance for 'equipment' and support by offering a wide array of options and player driven choices, not by nerfing players into pre-fab boxes without diverse options for valid top level fittings. 1.8 by the looks of it so far goes in the opposite direction of the robust offerings provided by New Eden hitherto, seeming to lean towards homogeny over innovation/player choice. Even if such a trend may make balance easier it isn't required for balance to exist and doesn't benefit the long term health/value of the game.
I can actually pull up the logistic ships in EVE, you'll find they have even less combat prowess than dust logis and are in fact focused on equipment more so than logis in 1.7. The logi class is actually much much closer to EVE logi ships in 1.8 than they are now, for the idea of boxing you in, your not, the choices are still there, I've also heard the exact same piece from tac ars and flaylocks as well, and with the nature of the game things can come back around and will be modified again to re balance again.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1198
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Posted - 2014.01.31 23:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote: Then appearances are deceiving you.
The perception is largely based off on the war barge, usually 7-10 out of 16 is fielding a logi into a match, and what I kill on the field. 50-60% of our player base doesn't play logi because its a good team support suit, they play it because it has comparable numbers to the assault to where you are losing only a little bit compared to the assault stats in exchange for the huge boost in equipment utility, TTK is short enough to where a single light weapon can get you by. So while they may be ranked 8 in combat prowess compared to the assaults 9, but their equipment/support potentially blows the assault apart entirely, which is why they are fielded so often, that and the huge wp gains of equipment which translate to faster isk and sp.
Cross Atu wrote: Upon what do you base that belief? I presented some of my own reasoning on the subject and I don't see it refuted above. If you content that longer spawn times means more tactical deployment of uplinks detail a case for why that would be. Including a specific address to the effects of scanners, flux nades, players with spam swap suits, and the reasons a decreased overall function will result in more players including links on their standard deployment fits.
Uplink trenching is only a valid tactic assuming you can consistently pop back into the field in 2 to 3 seconds, barring this, the trench gets broken fast and you just get spawned camped, compared to now which you can field 4-6 guys constantly even if you drop them over and over because they can recreate that trench again with a 2 sec spawn. A weakening in dropuplinks trench abilities are what I justified my belief that they will be less likely to be spammed in the future, and by less I don't mean like a large drop, just a small drop. if People want to lag bomb, they are still free to do it, its just that large amount of uplinks won't have the same trench abilities as before.
Now to keep this shorter, the rest of what you wrote translates to EVE does not equal Dust, which I agree with you, I also have no issues with logis killing things, but I do think your undercutting what logis can do, and what they still will be able to do in 1.8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCx2o7JGWG8
Here is a clear example of repair tool being used in a pure tanking scenario, the wp potential, and again with an increased TTK, this will become more powerful
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