DUST Search - Why Refunding Dropsuit Command Only Is Unfair to Heavies

Chunky Munkey wrote:

DUST Fiend wrote:

Let's just imagine that 1.8 rolls around and CCP decides to only refund Dropsuit Command.

Ok.

So, a shotgun scout could still become a shotgun logi, a shotgun assault, or hell, even a shotgun heavy if that's his thing.

A rail rifle logi can still become a rail rifle assault, a rail rifle scout, or even a rail rifle commando, while still getting use out of whatever equipment he once had.

That swarm launcher assault guy can go over to a logi if he wants the added equipment, or even a scout focusing on stealth, or a commando for the extra damage.

So. What about that HMG heavy or Forge gun heavy. How do his skills transfer over to new suits. Why can every other suit switch without losing out, where heavies can only switch if they forever forget the SP they invested into Heavy weapons?

If heavy weapons are not refunded, then only Heavy and Light frames should be refunded SP, as these are the only new additions. Full infantry respec for all, or highly limited respec for only the new suits being added. Pick your poison.

By that logic, people with proto rep tools & injectors are being overlooked too.

If someone has skilled a heavy weapon, they clearly wanted to play as a heavy. Now that they'd get a dropsuit respec, they can pick the heavy they never had the choice to before. What's the problem?

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DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10181	Posted - 2014.01.20 16:36:00 - [1] - Quote Let's just imagine that 1.8 rolls around and CCP decides to only refund Dropsuit Command. Ok. So, a shotgun scout could still become a shotgun logi, a shotgun assault, or hell, even a shotgun heavy if that's his thing. A rail rifle logi can still become a rail rifle assault, a rail rifle scout, or even a rail rifle commando, while still getting use out of whatever equipment he once had. That swarm launcher assault guy can go over to a logi if he wants the added equipment, or even a scout focusing on stealth, or a commando for the extra damage. So. What about that HMG heavy or Forge gun heavy. How do his skills transfer over to new suits. Why can every other suit switch without losing out, where heavies can only switch if they forever forget the SP they invested into Heavy weapons? If heavy weapons are not refunded, then only Heavy and Light frames should be refunded SP, as these are the only new additions. Full infantry respec for all, or highly limited respec for only the new suits being added. Pick your posion. Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
8213 0uter.Heaven Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 1397	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:23:00 - [2] - Quote Good point. Heavy weapons take a lot of SP to get to, especially the Forge Gun. Also, when the heck are you going to get more heavy weapons, so scrubs stop using light weapons on heavy frames. That's what to Commando is for. Fish in a bucket!
Arx Ardashir Imperium Aeternum 444	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:25:00 - [3] - Quote 8213 wrote: so scrubs stop using light weapons on heavy frames. That's what to Commando is for. Begins to shake Here you can type your bio.
Forlorn Destrier Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2333	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:25:00 - [4] - Quote Agreed. This is why we need to wait until the other weapons are out and do a final full respect then, and then only. No partial respec's. What will be your legacy? Will you rise, or will you fall?
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2050	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:28:00 - [5] - Quote I don't anyone besides heavies and scout should get their SP back. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Jack Kittinger Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 83	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:32:00 - [6] - Quote don't worry there won't be a respec problem solved
VonSpliff TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 32	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:42:00 - [7] - Quote With the DSC respec as a heavy you can choose the race variant that fits your play style. May it be full time Forge or HMG slayer. And if your not a complete idiot and spec'd into multiple suits you can shrink your collection and have a race variant for each of the heavy weapons. And you still get to use all the other weapons. Heavy with a RR is not the most effective killer but it always makes me change my attack plan. So keep an open mind and remember heavies get screwed. Side note: CCP needs to up the damage to vehicles done by forge guns. "Long live the Empress, unless you have some isk"
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10185	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:44:00 - [8] - Quote VonSpliff wrote: With the DSC respec as a heavy you can choose the race variant that fits your play style. May it be full time Forge or HMG slayer. And if your not a complete idiot and spec'd into multiple suits you can shrink your collection and have a race variant for each of the heavy weapons. And you still get to use all the other weapons. Heavy with a RR is not the most effective killer but it always makes me change my attack plan. So keep an open mind and remember heavies get screwed. Side note: CCP needs to up the damage to vehicles done by forge guns. What I'm saying is that if you do a blanket refund to dropsuit command, everyone else can swap suits if they like, where heavies are forced to stay heavies because they can't use their heavy weapons on other suits, unlike light weapons which can be used on heavy suits, and which even have a heavy suit dedicated to them. Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
Patrick57 Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 4094	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:53:00 - [9] - Quote Jack Kittinger wrote: don't worry there won't be a respec problem solved **** off. Winner of at least 9 King ThunderBolt hate videos :D
steadyhand amarr Bragian Order Amarr Empire 2170	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:56:00 - [10] - Quote That was a well written pile of garbage lol :-P "i dont care about you or your goals, just show me the dam isk" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers

DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10187	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:57:00 - [11] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: That was a well written pile of garbage lol :-P I like the way you address my point; a dropsuit command refund would indeed be garbage. Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
pegasis prime BIG BAD W0LVES 1537	Posted - 2014.01.20 18:05:00 - [12] - Quote Im not normally for full resecs but given the magnitude of proposed changes then id vote for a full infantry related skills only respec including weponarry. This would be fair as us vehicle operatives already got a full vehicle related respec. Its gone from suck .....to blow level 1 forum warrior
Beck Weathers Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 348	Posted - 2014.01.20 18:10:00 - [13] - Quote Well they could always reset everyones acount, then we wouldnt have to worry about it.
Teilka Darkmist 18	Posted - 2014.01.20 18:13:00 - [14] - Quote Beck Weathers wrote: Well they could always reset everyones acount, then we wouldnt have to worry about it. Because so many people would quit that dust would be forced to die. 'You can only post every 5 minutes because your account is less than 2 days old' - This gets old VERY quickly.
The Attorney General 1818	Posted - 2014.01.20 18:31:00 - [15] - Quote Maybe it is just me, but I am strongly hoping for a rework of the weaponry skills with this content drop. I am hoping that they take a cue from the tank changes and remove weapon proficiency. If they go that route, expect a full respec from all three branches. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Jack Kittinger Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 85	Posted - 2014.01.20 18:55:00 - [16] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: If they go that route, expect a full respec from all three branches. Now that's a HUGE IF lemme contribute to this Assumptionfest If CCP made any sense...
The Attorney General 1821	Posted - 2014.01.20 18:56:00 - [17] - Quote Jack Kittinger wrote: The Attorney General wrote: If they go that route, expect a full respec from all three branches. Now that's a HUGE IF lemme contribute to this Assumptionfest If CCP made any sense... Oh, I am well aware that the supposition level is quite high. I just hope that CCP comes to the realization that if you want to try to balance weapons, it is much easier if they don't have a 15% spread of damage. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 605	Posted - 2014.01.20 18:57:00 - [18] - Quote Oh, so that's what you meant. Yeah, I agree. Heavy Weapons take a lot of SP to get into. That's the only reason why I'm still in militia Forge Gun, heh. We might get Command, Upgrade, Weapon respec. Might.
MassiveNine 0uter.Heaven Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 782	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:03:00 - [19] - Quote Here's to hoping, but doubting weapons will have a respec as well. I agree only light and heavy frames should get the respec. Official DUST514 LAV Mechanic
Jake Bloodworth Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 282	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:17:00 - [20] - Quote Any respec, if given, would have little to do with allowing players to change roles. The respec would be aimed at allowing players to enjoy their choice of racial suits where they previously had none. Yes, like the tanker respec, some players would take the SP and leave their previous role. But, that is not the purpose or goal of the respec. The purpose is to allow players to spec into the suit of their choice. Scouts and heavies are rejoicing about this. Actually, you seem to be the only... I use this term loosely with you... Heavy... That is complaining about the oft-requested arrival of racial parity in drop suits. Any respec given, isn't for the people who want to jump on the ADS or whatever other bandwagon. Will they benefit from it? Yes. But it's for those of us who are dedicated to a role and wish to fulfill that role with drop suits that were not previously available. Real heavies and real scouts.

Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2686	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:23:00 - [21] - Quote Like they only refunded vehicle command and not vehicle upgrades or turrets? Wait, they were smart and did everything vehicle related. If they decide to do it they'll refund the three infantry trees at the same time. Last I heard even that was still undecided because they weren't changing the tree around, only the adding to it and updating bonuses. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Beamer 325 Hellstorm Incorporation 6	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:28:00 - [22] - Quote 8213 wrote: Good point. Heavy weapons take a lot of SP to get to, especially the Forge Gun. Also, when the heck are you going to get more heavy weapons, so scrubs stop using light weapons on heavy frames. That's what to Commando is for. That's fine. I am having way more fun sniping with my gaston forge. One shot kill........priceless
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3265	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:47:00 - [23] - Quote The medium suits may not be "new", but if the change-list is any indication, they may be changing all the suit stats and bonuses. The Amarr Sentinel and Commando already existed, but their slots, base suit stats (hp, fitting, etc.), and bonuses are changing. If the slots, stats, and bonuses change on the medium suits too, then what exactly remains of the original suit? The model? They're also supposedly going to adjust weapon damage and damage mods. I'd say wait for everything to be released for a respec... but I'm not even sure what "everything" is. Is every race supposed to have a sniper rifle (that Minmatar "precision" rifle could be another)? An SMG (there's two now)? An AV weapon (Swarm/PLC?)? The suit changes could definitely be severe across the board, and suit choice and build decisions directly feed into things like the SP you put into weapon and upgrades. I don't think a Dropsuit-command only respec makes sense in that context. It would be like saying, "the suit changes are big enough to warrant a respec... but not all the skills you picked based on that suit". Join my cult.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10188	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:52:00 - [24] - Quote Jake Bloodworth wrote: Any respec, if given, would have little to do with allowing players to change roles. The respec would be aimed at allowing players to enjoy their choice of racial suits where they previously had none. Yes, like the tanker respec, some players would take the SP and leave their previous role. But, that is not the purpose or goal of the respec. The purpose is to allow players to spec into the suit of their choice. Scouts and heavies are rejoicing about this. Actually, you seem to be the only... I use this term loosely with you... Heavy... That is complaining about the oft-requested arrival of racial parity in drop suits. Any respec given, isn't for the people who want to jump on the ADS or whatever other bandwagon. Will they benefit from it? Yes. But it's for those of us who are dedicated to a role and wish to fulfill that role with drop suits that were not previously available. Real heavies and real scouts. I only went heavy because scouts were in a laughable position, and I have no interest in medium frames. I'll continue to ignore every single SP I've dumped into infantry if we aren't given a proper respec simply because the heavy playstyle thoroughly bores me now that I've had the chance to test it through and through. I no longer find any aspect of being a heavy appealing, and it has nothing to do with effectiveness. I'd honestly rather just set the game down then carry around 10+ million SP that I'll never bother using again. Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
Ansiiis The Trustworthy Mocking Bird Inc. 633	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:32:00 - [25] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Let's just imagine that 1.8 rolls around and CCP decides to only refund Dropsuit Command. Ok. So, a shotgun scout could still become a shotgun logi, a shotgun assault, or hell, even a shotgun heavy if that's his thing. A rail rifle logi can still become a rail rifle assault, a rail rifle scout, or even a rail rifle commando, while still getting use out of whatever equipment he once had. That swarm launcher assault guy can go over to a logi if he wants the added equipment, or even a scout focusing on stealth, or a commando for the extra damage. So. What about that HMG heavy or Forge gun heavy. How do his skills transfer over to new suits. Why can every other suit switch without losing out, where heavies can only switch if they forever forget the SP they invested into Heavy weapons? If heavy weapons are not refunded, then only Heavy and Light frames should be refunded SP, as these are the only new additions. Full infantry respec for all, or highly limited respec for only the new suits being added. Pick your poison. Full respec all they way - changes form a chain of decisions. And don't say respec just for some because that's just pissing into other's cheerios. No longer a shield of Cat Merc.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2896	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:45:00 - [26] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Let's just imagine that 1.8 rolls around and CCP decides to only refund Dropsuit Command. Ok. So, a shotgun scout could still become a shotgun logi, a shotgun assault, or hell, even a shotgun heavy if that's his thing. A rail rifle logi can still become a rail rifle assault, a rail rifle scout, or even a rail rifle commando, while still getting use out of whatever equipment he once had. That swarm launcher assault guy can go over to a logi if he wants the added equipment, or even a scout focusing on stealth, or a commando for the extra damage. So. What about that HMG heavy or Forge gun heavy. How do his skills transfer over to new suits. Why can every other suit switch without losing out, where heavies can only switch if they forever forget the SP they invested into Heavy weapons? If heavy weapons are not refunded, then only Heavy and Light frames should be refunded SP, as these are the only new additions. Full infantry respec for all, or highly limited respec for only the new suits being added. Pick your poison. By that logic, people with proto rep tools & injectors are being overlooked too. If someone has skilled a heavy weapon, they clearly wanted to play as a heavy. Now that they'd get a dropsuit respec, they can pick the heavy they never had the choice to before. What's the problem? No.
Rusty Shallows 845	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:56:00 - [27] - Quote Jack Kittinger wrote: don't worry there won't be a respec problem solved /rant mode: On CCP has a solid track record of screwing this game up with changes. Even after we pounded the Devs with Nerf514 and had an assurance mid-2013 that a learned was lesson they relapsed before the end of the year. Who knew nerfing was an addiction? So saying there won't be a respec (or even an SP Refund of the three infantry skill trees) is likely true. Because that is exactly the low standard of product CCP is so well know for. Anyone who played Eve Online during the Moon Goo & old War Deck exploits (as opposed to the current newer one) knows what I'm talking about. /rant mode: Off To the O.P. "On Target, fire for Effect." MCC Lounge Lizard Forums > Game Fix the game CCP
Eltra Ardell Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 293	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:57:00 - [28] - Quote Refunding weapons in addition to dropsuit command makes no sense. Quit whining.
Ansiiis The Trustworthy Mocking Bird Inc. 637	Posted - 2014.01.20 21:15:00 - [29] - Quote Eltra Ardell wrote: Refunding weapons in addition to dropsuit command makes no sense. Quit whining. "quit whining" how can we have a good conversation when the likes of you are trying to bite ankles. Slowly dropping my KD/R.
ALPHA DECRIPTER Dragon-Empire 679	Posted - 2014.01.20 21:49:00 - [30] - Quote I still think we should just wait 'till 2.0 (may get more shiny) then get a respec to celebrate the update. And no. I'm not suggesting a respec for every whole update (3.0,4.0,etc). Scout Tactician Dance puppets, DANCE!

DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10193	Posted - 2014.01.20 21:56:00 - [31] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Let's just imagine that 1.8 rolls around and CCP decides to only refund Dropsuit Command. Ok. So, a shotgun scout could still become a shotgun logi, a shotgun assault, or hell, even a shotgun heavy if that's his thing. A rail rifle logi can still become a rail rifle assault, a rail rifle scout, or even a rail rifle commando, while still getting use out of whatever equipment he once had. That swarm launcher assault guy can go over to a logi if he wants the added equipment, or even a scout focusing on stealth, or a commando for the extra damage. So. What about that HMG heavy or Forge gun heavy. How do his skills transfer over to new suits. Why can every other suit switch without losing out, where heavies can only switch if they forever forget the SP they invested into Heavy weapons? If heavy weapons are not refunded, then only Heavy and Light frames should be refunded SP, as these are the only new additions. Full infantry respec for all, or highly limited respec for only the new suits being added. Pick your poison. By that logic, people with proto rep tools & injectors are being overlooked too. If someone has skilled a heavy weapon, they clearly wanted to play as a heavy. Now that they'd get a dropsuit respec, they can pick the heavy they never had the choice to before. What's the problem? That makes no sense. You can still use trained equipment on every frame, because commandos. You cannot however use heavy weapons on every frame. So, you would give every other frame the chance to switch frames, while forcing heavies to stay as heavies. Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
Benjamin Ciscko The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1283	Posted - 2014.01.20 22:31:00 - [32] - Quote Full infantry respec because with all these knew suits and weapons people will get the chance to skill into suits they may have been waiting for, for months. I definitely am not using this an alterier motive because 4.5 mil from infantry plus triple sp gives me enough to have everything in tanks I want maxed to be maxed. Caldari Tanker/Minmatar Assault Forum warrior lvl 1
Nirwanda Vaughns 274	Posted - 2014.01.20 22:39:00 - [33] - Quote basically if you have prof 5 in hmg you could slap it on a militia heavy suit and still own in it. the skills arn't wasted. a militia heavy with dropsuit upgrades and weapons maxed out is still a formidable suit. why you think most folk will run a templar/dren sentinel and then slap std stuff on it. its not like the 1.5 era heavy its back to being great even at a low level Proto and proud!!
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10195	Posted - 2014.01.20 22:46:00 - [34] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: basically if you have prof 5 in hmg you could slap it on a militia heavy suit and still own in it. the skills arn't wasted. a militia heavy with dropsuit upgrades and weapons maxed out is still a formidable suit. why you think most folk will run a templar/dren sentinel and then slap std stuff on it. its not like the 1.5 era heavy its back to being great even at a low level As I've mentioned, it has nothing to do with performance. If that was the case, I would just stick with heavies considering they're getting even MORE buffs. Who puts proto HMG on a MLT heavy for anything other than trolling?..... Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
VonSpliff TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 36	Posted - 2014.01.21 01:30:00 - [35] - Quote If you're already spec'd into HMG/Forge, sorry there is no going back. But with the HMG fix it is now one of the best weapon on the field. And having a forge is always needed in any PC match, allowing you to be first to get picked. The thing I don't get is why are you lumping in scouts to your cause. They can use any weapon and anyone can use sniper rifles. I personally hate scouts and thier QQing. "I can't slay, why can't I be a slayer" its complete BS. Everyone needs to stick to the roles theirs suit are made for and quit trying to make them something they are not. If you are still playing this game, that means you might stick around long enough to earn some serious SP and at some point all your core skills will be spec'd and you'll start branching into other roles. So quit crying about suits and spec your core skills. Assaults - push objective and slay Heavy - meat shield slayers/AV Logi - full support Scouts - scout(find people/hack unwatched objectives), snipe Team work wins matches, not gear, sp, and individual stats "Long live the Empress, unless you have some isk"
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 88	Posted - 2014.01.21 01:48:00 - [36] - Quote I dont want respecs to be a common thing. However we have to consider some of us may have spec'ed into things such as the minmatar logi mainly for the hacking speed. Granted it has no use in ambush and only a slight use in domination but in conquest errm i mean skirmish , it makes a big difference. If that hacking bonus is in fact going to be moved to a different suit, is it not fair that a respec is given one time so people can continue with there chosen path?
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 88	Posted - 2014.01.21 01:51:00 - [37] - Quote VonSpliff wrote: If you're already spec'd into HMG/Forge, sorry there is no going back. But with the HMG fix it is now one of the best weapon on the field. And having a forge is always needed in any PC match, allowing you to be first to get picked. The thing I don't get is why are you lumping in scouts to your cause. They can use any weapon and anyone can use sniper rifles. I personally hate scouts and thier QQing. "I can't slay, why can't I be a slayer" its complete BS. Everyone needs to stick to the roles theirs suit are made for and quit trying to make them something they are not. If you are still playing this game, that means you might stick around long enough to earn some serious SP and at some point all your core skills will be spec'd and you'll start branching into other roles. So quit crying about suits and spec your core skills. Assaults - push objective and slay Heavy - meat shield slayers/AV Logi - full support Scouts - scout(find people/hack unwatched objectives), snipe Team work wins matches, not gear, sp, and individual stats While I agree somewhat, you are neglecting ninja play, sabotage and many other things that are possible with a scout.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10203	Posted - 2014.01.21 02:50:00 - [38] - Quote VonSpliff wrote: If you're already spec'd into HMG/Forge, sorry there is no going back. But with the HMG fix it is now one of the best weapon on the field. And having a forge is always needed in any PC match, allowing you to be first to get picked. The thing I don't get is why are you lumping in scouts to your cause. They can use any weapon and anyone can use sniper rifles. I personally hate scouts and thier QQing. "I can't slay, why can't I be a slayer" its complete BS. Everyone needs to stick to the roles theirs suit are made for and quit trying to make them something they are not. If you are still playing this game, that means you might stick around long enough to earn some serious SP and at some point all your core skills will be spec'd and you'll start branching into other roles. So quit crying about suits and spec your core skills. Assaults - push objective and slay Heavy - meat shield slayers/AV Logi - full support Scouts - scout(find people/hack unwatched objectives), snipe Team work wins matches, not gear, sp, and individual stats Or, since I'm dreadfully bored of Heavies, if all the changes come through without a respec I'll simply set the game down, and go play something else. I've gone through 2 years of this now, and if CCP decides that role playing is more important than the decisions of paying customers, I will simply quietly walk away. This has nothing to do with effectiveness of my past SP allocations, and everything to do with using my SP how I want in relation to the infantry rebalance and all racial suits being in the game. Also, players trying to pigeon hole each suit into particular roles are exactly what's wrong with this game. And lastly, my core skills have been maxed for a very long time now. Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot


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