DUST Search - Less Armor HP + Higher Repair Rate?

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Asha Starwind wrote:

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Setting TTK aside, as I think most agree damage output is a little nuts right now....so assume for a second that damage of weapons is reduced...

How would you all feel about seeing a general reduction in the HP that modules give, and a significant increase to the effectiveness of modules that regenerate HP faster....particularly Armor Repair modules?

Right now Armor Plate HP is so high, and repair tool rate is so high, that Armor Repair Modules are very limited in their usefulness. How would you all feel about reducing Armor Plate HP and increasing Armor Repair rate?

And yes I understand that shields need work, but set that aside and look at how armor is operating right now Smile

General Proposition:

Rebalance of how HP scales with tier (STD>ADV is larger than ADV>PRO)
General Decrease in Armor Plate HP Value
General Increase in Armor Repair module Repair Rate (Not to exceed Passive Shield Recharge)
General Increase in Shield Extender HP Value (Not to exceed Armor Plates)
General Increase in Shield Regenerator bonus %

Let me followed this correctly you state that TTK low as a result weapon dps is high, but since a dps nerf is pending nerf hp too? Wouldn't that put us right back where we started?

It would be scaled such that the nerf to damage would be larger than the nerf to HP.

Dexter307 wrote:

Your changes would make armor to much like shields and less like armor

Im not stating that armor repair should be nearly as high as shield recharge, but with maxed skills and the proper suit, you could get close. Shields can of course put their natural recharge even higher, but right now armor repair modules are VERY weak in comparison to how much armor HP they have.

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Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1522	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:27:00 - [1] - Quote Setting TTK aside, as I think most agree damage output is a little nuts right now....so assume for a second that damage of weapons is reduced... How would you all feel about seeing a general reduction in the HP that modules give, and a significant increase to the effectiveness of modules that regenerate HP faster....particularly Armor Repair modules? Right now Armor Plate HP is so high, and repair tool rate is so high, that Armor Repair Modules are very limited in their usefulness. How would you all feel about reducing Armor Plate HP and increasing Armor Repair rate? And yes I understand that shields need work, but set that aside and look at how armor is operating right now 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Jacques Cayton II Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 535	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:29:00 - [2] - Quote No it will make shields even less useful. We fight for the future of the State not our personal goals
Galthur Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 236	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:33:00 - [3] - Quote No Recruit to 100,000wp get 30 mil: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1706198#post1706198
Denn Maell PIanet Express Canis Eliminatus Operatives 67	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:36:00 - [4] - Quote I'd like to see more of a stacking penalty than what we're seeing. Being able to rush through a hail of gunfire and sit on a open street and trade bullets is nuts and boring. It nearly makes actually using cover and squad work unnecessary. If Damage is decreased I'd like to see HP modules in general decrease at a similar rate. But armor-focused defense should be as different from shields as possible. The most OP weapon on the Dust Battle Field: One good logi, one rep tool, and a heavy.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1523	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:37:00 - [5] - Quote Jacques Cayton II wrote: No it will make shields even less useful. You don't even read the post do you? I clearly state that I'm aware shields need work, but I'm commenting on the way armor plates and armor repairers work together. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 714	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:43:00 - [6] - Quote No Armor is not shields TTK is already too short, leave health as it is and give a minor nerf to the rifles as those are the only weapons killing too fast.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10032	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:44:00 - [7] - Quote No thanks, ADS won't be able to crack armor tanks at that point, and won't even be very good as fire support. You'd just further encourage people to stack damage mods on large railguns. Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Dropship Pilot
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 714	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:47:00 - [8] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: No thanks, ADS won't be able to crack armor tanks at that point, and won't even be very good as fire support. You'd just further encourage people to stack damage mods on large railguns. It's already very difficult / impossible to crack a double rep Madrugar with small railguns or even missiles, increase the rep rate anymore and the damage you deal will be healed up in the time it takes you to reload. I don't think he's talking about vehicles
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1523	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:47:00 - [9] - Quote Dexter307 wrote: No Armor is not shields TTK is already too short, leave health as it is and give a minor nerf to the rifles as those are the only weapons killing too fast. Facepalm Why do I bother posting....I just got done saying...in the first line....that I understand TTK is too low, and that needs work, but I'm talking about the relationship between armor plates and repairers..... **** nevermind, people refuse to read. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 10032	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:48:00 - [10] - Quote Dexter307 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: No thanks, ADS won't be able to crack armor tanks at that point, and won't even be very good as fire support. You'd just further encourage people to stack damage mods on large railguns. It's already very difficult / impossible to crack a double rep Madrugar with small railguns or even missiles, increase the rep rate anymore and the damage you deal will be healed up in the time it takes you to reload. I don't think he's talking about vehicles Oops, if that's the case, then sorry about that lol. Comprehension fail > 9000 Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Dropship Pilot

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1523	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:48:00 - [11] - Quote Dexter307 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: No thanks, ADS won't be able to crack armor tanks at that point, and won't even be very good as fire support. You'd just further encourage people to stack damage mods on large railguns. It's already very difficult / impossible to crack a double rep Madrugar with small railguns or even missiles, increase the rep rate anymore and the damage you deal will be healed up in the time it takes you to reload. I don't think he's talking about vehicles And Im not talk about vehicles. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 714	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:52:00 - [12] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Dexter307 wrote: No Armor is not shields TTK is already too short, leave health as it is and give a minor nerf to the rifles as those are the only weapons killing too fast. Facepalm Why do I bother posting....I just got done saying...in the first line....that I understand TTK is too low, and that needs work, but I'm talking about the relationship between armor plates and repairers..... **** nevermind, people refuse to read. Your changes would make armor to much like shields and less like armor
Assault Chileanme Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 29	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:54:00 - [13] - Quote I would personally like to see the HP on armor stay the same with the same rate on Armor Repairers, but reduce the repair rate on hives and repair tools. Armor tanking should let you absorb a decent amount more damage but take a significantly longer time to regenerate that lost armor. Shields on the other hand could keep their current HP amounts, but could probably use a bit of a recharge rate buff, while keeping the delay the same. Of course as you said this is all assuming that TTK is changed and recharge rates really don't matter compared to total EHP.
Asha Starwind VEXALATION CORPORATION Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage 152	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:56:00 - [14] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Setting TTK aside, as I think most agree damage output is a little nuts right now....so assume for a second that damage of weapons is reduced... How would you all feel about seeing a general reduction in the HP that modules give, and a significant increase to the effectiveness of modules that regenerate HP faster....particularly Armor Repair modules? Right now Armor Plate HP is so high, and repair tool rate is so high, that Armor Repair Modules are very limited in their usefulness. How would you all feel about reducing Armor Plate HP and increasing Armor Repair rate? And yes I understand that shields need work, but set that aside and look at how armor is operating right now General Proposition: Rebalance of how HP scales with tier (STD>ADV is larger than ADV>PRO) General Decrease in Armor Plate HP Value General Increase in Armor Repair module Repair Rate (Not to exceed Passive Shield Recharge) General Increase in Shield Extender HP Value (Not to exceed Armor Plates) General Increase in Shield Regenerator bonus % Let me followed this correctly you state that TTK low as a result weapon dps is high, but since a dps nerf is pending nerf hp too? Wouldn't that put us right back where we started?
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 1562	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:58:00 - [15] - Quote I use armor rep modules as my back up, if I want to stand and fight I use armor plates and if I want to stay on the field longer or I want to be at long range I use reps. On board reps let a merc come back to the fight or escape. Plates are a buffer used to prevent a quick death. My only problems with armor is the logi bonus to armor reps. I think it is ugly and bad for the game. I have been an armor tanker since closed beta and I think armor is decent. I would like to see more modules (for everything not just armor) that make armor more fun, a nantite repair paste module that has to be activly used and then resupplied but offers a really quick burst of armor would be cool. GÇ£No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride." Hunter S. Thompson
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 410	Posted - 2014.01.15 18:59:00 - [16] - Quote Ill agree on hives, but not on rep tools. If anything rep tools should be increased. Id like to see dedicating yourself as a repper to a heavy, increasing the TTK on said heavy a ton if they dont deal with you first. Reducing the small amount of synergy between classes in this game is a mistake, if anything we should encourage more.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1523	Posted - 2014.01.15 19:00:00 - [17] - Quote Asha Starwind wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Setting TTK aside, as I think most agree damage output is a little nuts right now....so assume for a second that damage of weapons is reduced... How would you all feel about seeing a general reduction in the HP that modules give, and a significant increase to the effectiveness of modules that regenerate HP faster....particularly Armor Repair modules? Right now Armor Plate HP is so high, and repair tool rate is so high, that Armor Repair Modules are very limited in their usefulness. How would you all feel about reducing Armor Plate HP and increasing Armor Repair rate? And yes I understand that shields need work, but set that aside and look at how armor is operating right now General Proposition: Rebalance of how HP scales with tier (STD>ADV is larger than ADV>PRO) General Decrease in Armor Plate HP Value General Increase in Armor Repair module Repair Rate (Not to exceed Passive Shield Recharge) General Increase in Shield Extender HP Value (Not to exceed Armor Plates) General Increase in Shield Regenerator bonus % Let me followed this correctly you state that TTK low as a result weapon dps is high, but since a dps nerf is pending nerf hp too? Wouldn't that put us right back where we started? It would be scaled such that the nerf to damage would be larger than the nerf to HP. Dexter307 wrote: Your changes would make armor to much like shields and less like armor Im not stating that armor repair should be nearly as high as shield recharge, but with maxed skills and the proper suit, you could get close. Shields can of course put their natural recharge even higher, but right now armor repair modules are VERY weak in comparison to how much armor HP they have. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 543	Posted - 2014.01.15 19:05:00 - [18] - Quote I'd vote more for heavy Hp mods. Heavy plate gives 150 standard, 200 proto, but 10% speed reduction. Heavy shield extender gives 120Hp at proto, 10% reduction in recharge rate. Under 28db Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14) I have a God, His name is Dakka.
Assault Chileanme Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 29	Posted - 2014.01.15 19:05:00 - [19] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Dexter307 wrote: Your changes would make armor to much like shields and less like armor Im not stating that armor repair should be nearly as high as shield recharge, but with maxed skills and the proper suit, you could get close. Shields can of course put their natural recharge even higher, but right now armor repair modules are VERY weak in comparison to how much armor HP they have. I think that's the point of armor vs shields though. Armor takes forever to rep passively. That's why a basic armor plate gives more hp than a complex shield extender.
Assault Chileanme Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 29	Posted - 2014.01.15 19:06:00 - [20] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: I'd vote more for heavy Hp mods. Heavy plate gives 150 standard, 200 proto, but 10% speed reduction. Heavy shield extender gives 120Hp at proto, 10% reduction in recharge rate. Now that wouldn't be a bad idea. Would definitely open up a lot more dynamic fitting options.

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1524	Posted - 2014.01.15 19:06:00 - [21] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: Ill agree on hives, but not on rep tools. If anything rep tools should be increased. Id like to see dedicating yourself as a repper to a heavy, increasing the TTK on said heavy a ton if they dont deal with you first. Reducing the small amount of synergy between classes in this game is a mistake, if anything we should encourage more. While I agree, and logistics should always outclass local reps, a Militia Repair tool is what....75HP a second a now? 15 times more effective than a Complex Armor Repairer? I think the difference between local reps and repair tool should be decreased slightly. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1524	Posted - 2014.01.15 19:07:00 - [22] - Quote Assault Chileanme wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Dexter307 wrote: Your changes would make armor to much like shields and less like armor Im not stating that armor repair should be nearly as high as shield recharge, but with maxed skills and the proper suit, you could get close. Shields can of course put their natural recharge even higher, but right now armor repair modules are VERY weak in comparison to how much armor HP they have. I think that's the point of armor vs shields though. Armor takes forever to rep passively. That's why a basic armor plate gives more hp than a complex shield extender. Comparatively yes, I'd vote for an increase in shield recharge rate from current values as well. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 714	Posted - 2014.01.15 19:12:00 - [23] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Asha Starwind wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Setting TTK aside, as I think most agree damage output is a little nuts right now....so assume for a second that damage of weapons is reduced... How would you all feel about seeing a general reduction in the HP that modules give, and a significant increase to the effectiveness of modules that regenerate HP faster....particularly Armor Repair modules? Right now Armor Plate HP is so high, and repair tool rate is so high, that Armor Repair Modules are very limited in their usefulness. How would you all feel about reducing Armor Plate HP and increasing Armor Repair rate? And yes I understand that shields need work, but set that aside and look at how armor is operating right now General Proposition: Rebalance of how HP scales with tier (STD>ADV is larger than ADV>PRO) General Decrease in Armor Plate HP Value General Increase in Armor Repair module Repair Rate (Not to exceed Passive Shield Recharge) General Increase in Shield Extender HP Value (Not to exceed Armor Plates) General Increase in Shield Regenerator bonus % Let me followed this correctly you state that TTK low as a result weapon dps is high, but since a dps nerf is pending nerf hp too? Wouldn't that put us right back where we started? It would be scaled such that the nerf to damage would be larger than the nerf to HP. Dexter307 wrote: Your changes would make armor to much like shields and less like armor Im not stating that armor repair should be nearly as high as shield recharge, but with maxed skills and the proper suit, you could get close. Shields can of course put their natural recharge even higher, but right now armor repair modules are VERY weak in comparison to how much armor HP they have. That's how it supposed to be, armor has high HP and low regen
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1524	Posted - 2014.01.15 19:13:00 - [24] - Quote Again, comparatively low to shield regeneration. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 543	Posted - 2014.01.15 19:14:00 - [25] - Quote Assault Chileanme wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: I'd vote more for heavy Hp mods. Heavy plate gives 150 standard, 200 proto, but 10% speed reduction. Heavy shield extender gives 120Hp at proto, 10% reduction in recharge rate. Now that wouldn't be a bad idea. Would definitely open up a lot more dynamic fitting options. Imagine a heavy fitting 2 heavy plates, getting the HP he needs, then a set of reps. Now imagine a logo trying to fit them :D Alternatively the heavy could do 3x plates and 1 Pg, and still have more HP than a quad light plate. Under 28db Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14) I have a God, His name is Dakka.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 7898	Posted - 2014.01.15 19:26:00 - [26] - Quote Disagree. The point of armour is to provide high HP with low regeneration and slow speeds. The high HP of armour comes at a trade-off. If you want to regen quickly, you use shields. Also, this would be an insanely large buff to shields. Remember that shields were the dominant tanking style not too long ago - all it took to change that was a 20 HP difference per HP mod. If you reduce plate HP, and increase extender HP, then you are easily going to have a much greater change than that. Couple that with buffing other parts of shielding and you will quickly end up with no reason to armour tank. What do you see the role of armour tanks being? With these changes they would be out-regenerated and quite probably out-tanked while being slower. Level 7 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 5580	Posted - 2014.01.15 19:29:00 - [27] - Quote So basically, make armor and shields the same ****? Why not have one big health pool in this case? Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1524	Posted - 2014.01.15 19:33:00 - [28] - Quote The concept I was going for was to make the difference in shield and armor on dropsuits similar to the way it operates on vehicles. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 717	Posted - 2014.01.15 19:43:00 - [29] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: The concept I was going for was to make the difference in shield and armor on dropsuits similar to the way it operates on vehicles. CURRENT Shield HP \|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\| Shield Recharge \|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\| Armor HP \|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\| Armor Repair \|\| PROPOSED Shield HP \|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\| Shield Recharge \|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\| Armor HP \|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\| Armor Repair IIIII It would still be better to leave armor as is. Regen is fast enough, and armor repair dosent stop under fire Shields though, needs a buff.
Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 1911	Posted - 2014.01.15 19:49:00 - [30] - Quote I've always thought of shields and armor like this. Shields should idealistically have around 85% of the HP compared to an armor tank. They make up for this due to their ability repair themselves at almost 2-3x the rate of armor suits. If an armor tank takes 20 seconds to fully rep, a shield tank should be able to do it in around 7-10 seconds. They pay for this in their eHP loss. They can't take as much damage, but they can recover it faaar quicker. Armor should idealistiaclly have their full eHP (which according to the previous math, would be around 1.2x the eHP of a shield tank. This makes them FAR more durable, but they pay for it with a lack of speed and lack of passive rep. Lets look at the base eHP values. Lets say that the armor tank has 900eHP (200 shields, 700 armor). The shield tank should have 765eHP (lets say 600 shields, 165 armor). The shield tank should rep in about a 1/3 of time an armor tank can. The armor tank should be able to hit roughly 20hp/s (reps would need a buff), and fully rep in 35s. The shield tank should fully rep in around 10 seconds. This gives the armor tank more survivability in short term engagements, but the shield tank wins out in long term engagements. Does this sound good to you guys? Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.



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