DUST Search - Do we have a Lag Compensation issue?

GLOBAL RAGE wrote:

Cal Predine wrote:

And for what it's worth, here's what I'd like to see...

as a programmer (but not a game programmer) and network Engineer, may I suggest "Cal's top tips for easing this mess".

If lag "compensation" is too favourable, dial back the effect so a high Ping isn't the ultimate must-have weapon in every clone soldier's arsenal. Hopefully with Lag Compensation doing only what it should do, ensuring that *everyone* can play an effective part in the game, no further action will be necessary. But history would suggest that's a big ask, so you may also want to consider:

Display all player's Ping stat. In numbers. The graphs are great, but we really need numbers. Update those numbers regularly on the player list. In fact, display them on the kill notices so we can them when they *really* count... Record those "killing Ping" stats.
If their Ping changes by more than [some tailorable amount]% between matchmaking and match-playing, kick them and help find them a game with more suitable opponents. you may even decide to have an acceptable Ping value band for all matches to ensure players *can* play together effectively. Calculate what is acceptable, and stick by it.
If a player's "Killing Ping" average is way out of proportion to their Ping when they try to join a match, don't let them in. Simple. You'd need to maybe reset it every now and then (playing on a different connection, change of ISP, traffic management policies by their ISP kicking in), and obviously allow for the fact that a gunfight will be seeing more network traffic than sneaking 'round a building, but you get the idea...
If their Ping changes by more than [some tailorable amount]% during the match, kick them and help find them a game with more suitable opponents.
If their Ping goes up significantly when they open fire or come under fire, kick them and help find them a game with more suitable opponents (again, taking into account the extra traffic involved in firing weapons, of course).
Record Ping when a player joins a match, and every time they score a kill (and, if possible, when they come under fire). Analyse it. Check for disparity. Ban exploiters.

This isn't perfect, but we're not looking for perfect (yet) we're looking for vaguely acceptable and equitable. I appreciate that if a squad joins with massively differing Pings across its members, this will get tricky, but remember that's a situation of that squad's making, it's not for everyone else to pay for it. Don't bend your rules for them. Match them with and against other disparately-pinged squads. Yes, that will slow down game startup - better to wait a few minutes for a fair game than rapidly join games which offer no challenge or possibility of success. Update the squad finder to help ensure this *doesn't* happen. It's great to promote squad-play, but it's not every other player's responsibility to suffer appalling gameplay on their behalf. Don't penalise the individual player - it's likely to scare off the new players which we need so desperately to give the game a future.

Thanks for reading, hope it helps make the game fairer for all players.

I live in Tampa Florida the home of FIOS-my ISP is fiber 120/60mbs and I'm two miles from a true internet junction. My google pings are sub 20ms.

the only lag comp I see are Europeans to my right >300ms Asians to my left >700ms South America under me >500ms
and Ontario up above and they use frozen carrier pigeons. UDP circa 1982!!

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Cal Predine StarKnight Security 54	Posted - 2014.01.11 13:11:00 - [1] - Quote Hi guys. There's been an elephant in the room for quite some time, and I really don't think we should ignore it any longer. I'm going to be blunt and say it right out. You get a better game experience with a worse network connection. I should note that this is not just in the order of "making it a bit nicer to play," this is in the order of "making everyone with a regular connection irrellevant". I've long noticed that players in certain regions "bring their own lag with them". When you try to target these players, your screen dissolves into stutter vision, your hits are ignored, they kill you in a fraction of a second (often some time after you withdraw into cover). I certainly wasn't the first to notice this, although it had previously been assumed by many (rather uncharitably) to be due to certain player nationalities cheating in some way. I won't give links to this, as I don't particularly want to ressurect those threads. Suffice to say, there are going to be differences between different nations and how they implement their network infrastructure. More recently, I discovered that I was enjoying several decent games, like the games I used to play back in early beta. This is pretty much unheard of now - I usually consider myself very fortunate if my Dust game is good enough to warrant finishing any given match. Now this glorious run of games wasn't good enough for me to really shine (it's been so long since I could last play Dust effectively that I think I've forgotten how!), but the system was actually responding to my commands, my damage output appeared to be inflicted correctly and I was getting kills. It even took my enemies approximately as much gunfire to take me down as it did me to take them down. Awesome! Only later did I discover that Mrs Predine was taking advantage of the Steam sale and had been downloading new software... Let's just take a look at the implications of that... I get a much better game experience, with almost no comparable game in the last year, when my internet connection was very busy... How can that ever be a good situation. And it seems I'm not alone... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1436299#post1436299 With hindsight (which is always 20/20, after all) It wasn't actually that big a surprise. Some time before, when (in my lag-hunting posts) I noted a few players were nigh impossible to hit, one of them responded that this was because they were "having connexion (sic) problems all day" in https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1240735#post1240735 Having had a history of watching the "high-Ping tables" in other online FPS games, where the lag "compensation" gives such a huge advantage that you can change sorting between Ping and frags, and no-one moves, this is all feeling very familiar. Yes, LAG COMPENSATION, I'm looking at you... Now this is clearly broken. I can understand that Dust needs to have players from all parts of the world playing together, so CCP feel the need to put lag compensation in place to level the playing field. God knows I'd LOVE to see a level playing field, but there can be no doubt that we don't have one at the moment. Worst of all, it's exploitable. Even a casual glance at the problem would demonstrate that (although far from perfect) it's better to have no lag compensation system than one which is so generous that it makes a(n apparently) high Ping a requirement to having any effect in the game. I know - doing away with it entirely would not be ideal, and would leave some georgraphies unable to play. But let's face it, the current system leaves many people unable to play, they're leaving in their droves. And hey! at least having no lag compensation isn't exploitable! The matchmaking system was presumably designed to get around this? to gather players with similar Pings and put them together? Except it doesn't work - you still end up playing against at least someone who's like a walking lag-storm every time you engage them. And if you are playing somewhere away from the bulk of Dust players, you'll just get dumped in whatever match can fit you in. By biasing the match selector in favour of teams, you are also selecting out new players from sticking with the game - it's vital to make a good impression on these people! Let's look at the squad finder next. A great idea. Except the Ping graphs seem to have no relationship to reality. I've joined squads with full graphs and empty graphs - both resulted in unplayable matches every time, just like pretty much every Dust game I join. So - any chance of seeing some attention on this front? PS3 Slim - Hybrid hard drive with 8GB SSD - South Coast UK - Virgin media cable BB, 20Mbps down, 2Mbps up.
Cal Predine StarKnight Security 54	Posted - 2014.01.11 13:21:00 - [2] - Quote And for what it's worth, here's what I'd like to see... as a programmer (but not a game programmer) and network Engineer, may I suggest "Cal's top tips for easing this mess". If lag "compensation" is too favourable, dial back the effect so a high Ping isn't the ultimate must-have weapon in every clone soldier's arsenal. Hopefully with Lag Compensation doing only what it should do, ensuring that everyone can play an effective part in the game, no further action will be necessary. But history would suggest that's a big ask, so you may also want to consider: Display all player's Ping stat. In numbers. The graphs are great, but we really need numbers. Update those numbers regularly on the player list. In fact, display them on the kill notices so we can them when they really count... Record those "killing Ping" stats. If their Ping changes by more than [some tailorable amount]% between matchmaking and match-playing, kick them and help find them a game with more suitable opponents. you may even decide to have an acceptable Ping value band for all matches to ensure players can play together effectively. Calculate what is acceptable, and stick by it. If a player's "Killing Ping" average is way out of proportion to their Ping when they try to join a match, don't let them in. Simple. You'd need to maybe reset it every now and then (playing on a different connection, change of ISP, traffic management policies by their ISP kicking in), and obviously allow for the fact that a gunfight will be seeing more network traffic than sneaking 'round a building, but you get the idea... If their Ping changes by more than [some tailorable amount]% during the match, kick them and help find them a game with more suitable opponents. If their Ping goes up significantly when they open fire or come under fire, kick them and help find them a game with more suitable opponents (again, taking into account the extra traffic involved in firing weapons, of course). Record Ping when a player joins a match, and every time they score a kill (and, if possible, when they come under fire). Analyse it. Check for disparity. Ban exploiters. This isn't perfect, but we're not looking for perfect (yet) we're looking for vaguely acceptable and equitable. I appreciate that if a squad joins with massively differing Pings across its members, this will get tricky, but remember that's a situation of that squad's making, it's not for everyone else to pay for it. Don't bend your rules for them. Match them with and against other disparately-pinged squads. Yes, that will slow down game startup - better to wait a few minutes for a fair game than rapidly join games which offer no challenge or possibility of success. Update the squad finder to help ensure this doesn't happen. It's great to promote squad-play, but it's not every other player's responsibility to suffer appalling gameplay on their behalf. Don't penalise the individual player - it's likely to scare off the new players which we need so desperately to give the game a future. Thanks for reading, hope it helps make the game fairer for all players. PS3 Slim - Hybrid hard drive with 8GB SSD - South Coast UK - Virgin media cable BB, 20Mbps down, 2Mbps up.
GLOBAL RAGE Consolidated Dust 10	Posted - 2014.01.11 14:40:00 - [3] - Quote Cal Predine wrote: And for what it's worth, here's what I'd like to see... as a programmer (but not a game programmer) and network Engineer, may I suggest "Cal's top tips for easing this mess". If lag "compensation" is too favourable, dial back the effect so a high Ping isn't the ultimate must-have weapon in every clone soldier's arsenal. Hopefully with Lag Compensation doing only what it should do, ensuring that everyone can play an effective part in the game, no further action will be necessary. But history would suggest that's a big ask, so you may also want to consider: Display all player's Ping stat. In numbers. The graphs are great, but we really need numbers. Update those numbers regularly on the player list. In fact, display them on the kill notices so we can them when they really count... Record those "killing Ping" stats. If their Ping changes by more than [some tailorable amount]% between matchmaking and match-playing, kick them and help find them a game with more suitable opponents. you may even decide to have an acceptable Ping value band for all matches to ensure players can play together effectively. Calculate what is acceptable, and stick by it. If a player's "Killing Ping" average is way out of proportion to their Ping when they try to join a match, don't let them in. Simple. You'd need to maybe reset it every now and then (playing on a different connection, change of ISP, traffic management policies by their ISP kicking in), and obviously allow for the fact that a gunfight will be seeing more network traffic than sneaking 'round a building, but you get the idea... If their Ping changes by more than [some tailorable amount]% during the match, kick them and help find them a game with more suitable opponents. If their Ping goes up significantly when they open fire or come under fire, kick them and help find them a game with more suitable opponents (again, taking into account the extra traffic involved in firing weapons, of course). Record Ping when a player joins a match, and every time they score a kill (and, if possible, when they come under fire). Analyse it. Check for disparity. Ban exploiters. This isn't perfect, but we're not looking for perfect (yet) we're looking for vaguely acceptable and equitable. I appreciate that if a squad joins with massively differing Pings across its members, this will get tricky, but remember that's a situation of that squad's making, it's not for everyone else to pay for it. Don't bend your rules for them. Match them with and against other disparately-pinged squads. Yes, that will slow down game startup - better to wait a few minutes for a fair game than rapidly join games which offer no challenge or possibility of success. Update the squad finder to help ensure this doesn't happen. It's great to promote squad-play, but it's not every other player's responsibility to suffer appalling gameplay on their behalf. Don't penalise the individual player - it's likely to scare off the new players which we need so desperately to give the game a future. Thanks for reading, hope it helps make the game fairer for all players. I live in Tampa Florida the home of FIOS-my ISP is fiber 120/60mbs and I'm two miles from a true internet junction. My google pings are sub 20ms. the only lag comp I see are Europeans to my right >300ms Asians to my left >700ms South America under me >500ms and Ontario up above and they use frozen carrier pigeons. UDP circa 1982!!
bogeyman m Learning Coalition College 7	Posted - 2014.01.15 03:52:00 - [4] - Quote GLOBAL RAGE wrote: Cal Predine wrote: And for what it's worth, here's what I'd like to see... as a programmer (but not a game programmer) and network Engineer, may I suggest "Cal's top tips for easing this mess". If lag "compensation" is too favourable, dial back the effect so a high Ping isn't the ultimate must-have weapon in every clone soldier's arsenal. Hopefully with Lag Compensation doing only what it should do, ensuring that everyone can play an effective part in the game, no further action will be necessary. But history would suggest that's a big ask, so you may also want to consider: Display all player's Ping stat. In numbers. The graphs are great, but we really need numbers. Update those numbers regularly on the player list. In fact, display them on the kill notices so we can them when they really count... Record those "killing Ping" stats. If their Ping changes by more than [some tailorable amount]% between matchmaking and match-playing, kick them and help find them a game with more suitable opponents. you may even decide to have an acceptable Ping value band for all matches to ensure players can play together effectively. Calculate what is acceptable, and stick by it. If a player's "Killing Ping" average is way out of proportion to their Ping when they try to join a match, don't let them in. Simple. You'd need to maybe reset it every now and then (playing on a different connection, change of ISP, traffic management policies by their ISP kicking in), and obviously allow for the fact that a gunfight will be seeing more network traffic than sneaking 'round a building, but you get the idea... If their Ping changes by more than [some tailorable amount]% during the match, kick them and help find them a game with more suitable opponents. If their Ping goes up significantly when they open fire or come under fire, kick them and help find them a game with more suitable opponents (again, taking into account the extra traffic involved in firing weapons, of course). Record Ping when a player joins a match, and every time they score a kill (and, if possible, when they come under fire). Analyse it. Check for disparity. Ban exploiters. This isn't perfect, but we're not looking for perfect (yet) we're looking for vaguely acceptable and equitable. I appreciate that if a squad joins with massively differing Pings across its members, this will get tricky, but remember that's a situation of that squad's making, it's not for everyone else to pay for it. Don't bend your rules for them. Match them with and against other disparately-pinged squads. Yes, that will slow down game startup - better to wait a few minutes for a fair game than rapidly join games which offer no challenge or possibility of success. Update the squad finder to help ensure this doesn't happen. It's great to promote squad-play, but it's not every other player's responsibility to suffer appalling gameplay on their behalf. Don't penalise the individual player - it's likely to scare off the new players which we need so desperately to give the game a future. Thanks for reading, hope it helps make the game fairer for all players. I live in Tampa Florida the home of FIOS-my ISP is fiber 120/60mbs and I'm two miles from a true internet junction. My google pings are sub 20ms. the only lag comp I see are Europeans to my right >300ms Asians to my left >700ms South America under me >500ms and Ontario up above and they use frozen carrier pigeons. UDP circa 1982!! I'm sure there are a number of great solutions to improving lag resilience, but I'd think reducing the stuff that causes the problem in the first place - unnecessary animations, like strobing nanos for example - would be the best place to start.
Cal Predine StarKnight Security 56	Posted - 2014.01.16 18:43:00 - [5] - Quote GLOBAL RAGE wrote: Cal Predine wrote: Snipped because it doesn't need repeating again I live in Tampa Florida the home of FIOS-my ISP is fiber 120/60mbs and I'm two miles from a true internet junction. My google pings are sub 20ms. the only lag comp I see are Europeans to my right >300ms Asians to my left >700ms South America under me >500ms and Ontario up above and they use frozen carrier pigeons. UDP circa 1982!! I'm intrigued by the Ping stats for other players you've collected, Rage - how did you get these? Am I missing a trick? I've been stuck with making in-game observations and citing posts by other players to support them - being able to bring scientific and measurable statistics to CCP would be very helpful. As it is, I can't even measure retransmissions, as Dust (quite rightly) uses UDP at layer 4. And I have to rely upon observing the languages in use to make a "best estimate" of where players are physically located - a flawed system at best, but "en-masse" it gives a reasonable feel for things. All these factors certainly makes it tricky to gather verifiable and meaningful data, and I certainly wouldn't want to say stuff I can't back up. But in terms of the Lag comp you are observing - could you expand upon what impact it has on your game? Is it quite prevalent, or limited to certain situations? PS3 Slim - Hybrid hard drive with 8GB SSD - South Coast UK - Virgin media cable BB, 20Mbps down, 2Mbps up.
Cal Predine StarKnight Security 57	Posted - 2014.02.06 20:28:00 - [6] - Quote Wow - just wow. Last weekend I had pretty much all playable games. I can't remember the last time... I won't say I didn't feel like I was fighting the game engine (as opposed to the enemy), because frequently I did. The difference was that this time I felt I was fighting the enemy as well as the game engine. That's such a huge difference from the quality of the enemy being irrelevant since you can't possibly affect them... I have to say that I felt that (and this is serious) for the FIRST TIME EVER I wanted to break out that proto suit I skilled into so long ago, because for the first time it (and not just lag) would actually make a relevant difference to my game. And, just the once, I did so. First time ever. I've had that capability for months... Makes you think, eh? I certainly hope so, because this is Dust's income stream we're talking about. yes, Dust lives or dies on this point... The awful problems of just controlling my character, and the feeling that the enemy was winning purely because they were enjoying (yes, enjoying) a worse connection than me seemed less immediate. I was able to look beyond these issues and still enjoy the game. It's been so very very long since I last felt that way about Dust... It was, frankly, amazing. It reminded me of what Dust should be, what it used to be in early beta days. I was taken back to why I used to be so enthusiastic about Dust as a project, and what it is to actually be relevant in the game. Now, of course, I'm back to normal. I should have expected that, but I'm so in the habit of tinkering with network settings - a tweak here, a modification there - trying to make the game playable, that I thought I may have stumbled upon something I could share with the community. It turns out I just had an unprecedented run of good fortune. But, I can say this - Dust is absolutely worth fighting for. I guess if I wasn't a "fanboi" I would have quit any borderline unplayable game like this around a year ago, but it has more to offer than those other games. It's why I've kept going back to EVE over 10 years when it has been largely unplayable. Just think, why would anyone reporting a frankly hatelful game experience keep on playing Dust? Because they see beyond what the game currently is - they remember what it has been, and see what it should and can be again. So I'll keep saying, again and again - lag needs fixing - Lag compensation certainly needs fixing. And I hope someday the Devs will listen, and Dust will overcome the problems it has. And players will stop quitting. And we'll all enjoy games like I enjoyed last weekend. On a mostly level playing field, with only quality of equipment and player skill to decide among us. Keep at it guys. Because I now remember that the goal is worth it. PS3 Slim - Hybrid hard drive with 8GB SSD - South Coast UK - Virgin media cable BB, 20Mbps down, 2Mbps up.
R F Gyro Clones 4u 1102	Posted - 2014.02.06 21:40:00 - [7] - Quote How would lag compensation give an advantage to players with more lag? As I understand it, all it would do is let the server register a hit based on where the client thought the target was at the time they fired, rather than where the server thought it was. RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus


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