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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1391
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Posted - 2014.01.10 19:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
SCOPE: I was sitting at lunch the other day and decided I would do some simple calcs on the Sentinel bonuses that popped up on the Sisi server. For those of you who have not seen the data mine information yet, Aeon Amadi was kind enough to post it here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134173
The Sentinel Bonus gives resistances to certain damage types based off the race of the suit. For a review of damage types please look at this DevBlog: http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/11/weapons-of-uprising-1.7/
I will attempt to determine what damage type is best for dealing with each Sentinel if these bonuses and values do indeed make it into 1.8
ASSUMPTIONS: -- Sentinel Skill assumed to be at Level V -- GÇ£Blast DamageGÇ¥ equates to GÇ£Explosive DamageGÇ¥ -- The Minmatar Bonus has a typo and should be GÇ£2% Armor Resistance to Hybrid-Rail DamageGÇ¥ instead of GÇ£Hybrid-Blaster DamageGÇ¥. I believe that this is a typo because the written bonus does not follow the same pattern that all of the other suits follow. --Bonuses are Multiplicative to base Shield/Armor resist/weakness values.
CALCULATION: Efficiency Rating = (Native Damage Multiplier * Skill Damage Reduction Multiplier)*100% Example: Minmatar -15% Shield Damage from Laser Weapons (1.2 * .85)*100%=102%
Caldari Sentinel Shields Laser = 120% Hybrid Blasters = 96.5% Hybrid Rail = 90% Projectile = 85.5% Explosive = 60%
Armor Laser = 80% Hybrid Blasters =90% Hybrid Rail = 110% Projectile = 110% Explosive = 90%
Amarr Sentinel Shields Laser = 120% Hybrid Blasters = 99% Hybrid Rail = 90% Projectile = 95% Explosive = 60%
Armor Laser = 80% Hybrid Blasters =90% Hybrid Rail = 110% Projectile =93.5% Explosive = 90%
Gallente Sentinel Shields Laser = 120% Hybrid Blasters = 110% Hybrid Rail = 90% Projectile = 95% Explosive = 60%
Armor Laser = 72% Hybrid Blasters =90% Hybrid Rail = 99% Projectile = 110% Explosive = 90%
Minmatar Sentinel Shields Laser = 102% Hybrid Blasters = 110% Hybrid Rail = 90% Projectile = 95% Explosive = 60%
Armor Laser = 80% Hybrid Blasters =90% Hybrid Rail = 99% Projectile = 110% Explosive = 90%
ANALYSIS: Caldari With a massive pool of shield HP, explosive weapons will be essentially useless against these suit. Its shields resist nearly every damage type making it highly versatile against most weapons. However with no additional resistance against EM Damage, Laser weapons and Flux grenades will make short work of these Sentinels.
Amarr The Amarr Sentinel is effectively a hybrid tank due to its equal pools of Shield and Armor, but it does have more focus on armor when it comes to modules. Because of this, Hybrid Rail weapons will be the best choice to take these guys down, due to the fact that they will still receive 110% efficiency against the Amarr Sentinel's armor.
Gallente The Sentinel's natural resistance to explosive weapons is the biggest asset for the Gallente Sentinel. On top of that, Hybrid Rail and Laser weapons will have significantly reduced effectiveness. Projectile weapons are the best choice when fighting Gallente Sentinels.
Minmatar The Minmatar Sentinel has a very even balance of resistances. It is neither highly resistant or highly weak to any particular damage type. This allows it to shield or armor tank with few downsides making them highly unpredictable. Armor Tanked Minmatar Sentinels should taken out with Projectile Weapons and Shield Tanked Minmatar Sentinels should be taken out with Hybrid Blaster weapons.
CONCLUSION Damage specific resistances is an interesting addition to infantry combat and will add some new dynamics to combat. It is important to remember that sometimes your enemy will have the ideal fit to counter your. For example, if you try to fight a Gallente Sentinel with a Scrambler Rifle, you're gonna have a bad time. It doesn't mean that the Gallente Sentinel is overpowered, it just means that you had the wrong weapon for that particular confrontation.
As a personal opinion, I think this is a step in the right direction for Sentinels, as Heavies have been needing some much needed love and the Sentinel suits actually have a purpose now. Also remember that this report assumes that the values and bonuses found on Sisi are correct; remember that they are subject to change.
I hope you found this information useful
ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11849
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Posted - 2014.01.10 19:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
This is the start of where EHP becomes something more than just Shield + Armor Hps.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Legen-Wait for It-Dairy
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
15
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Posted - 2014.01.10 19:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
+1 Great job Pokey!
No use crying over spilled milk unless you're a dairy farmer. Then you're forced to watch your livelihood slip away.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1397
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Posted - 2014.01.10 19:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:This is the start of where EHP becomes something more than just Shield + Armor Hps.
Such a wonderful idea =)
Now if we can get damage specific resistance amps for dropsuits, we'll really have some EVE-style fun with fitting.
ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
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Valmorgan Aubaris
Stellar and Orbital Strategic Services ACME Holding Conglomerate
166
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Posted - 2014.01.10 19:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Awesome analysis post +1!
Getting excited to see this implemented.
EVE alliance seeks mercs and corps!
Join Stellar and Orbital Strategic Services today!
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Ghost Kaisar
Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising
1731
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Posted - 2014.01.10 19:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Excellent post. +1
Get over it. If you don't play to win in FW, then you're playing for Caldari. -Patrick57
Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
1939
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Posted - 2014.01.10 19:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
I'm gonna share this with my Corp.
Excellent post.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Incin3rate
Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2014.01.10 19:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Its beautiful. *wipes tear |
Tectonic Fusion
960
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Posted - 2014.01.10 19:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Good post.
Solo Player
Squad status: Locked
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Aqil Aegivan
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
262
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
Call me crazy but doesn't Caldari Sentinel get a weak shield bonus vs lasers? |
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Beck Weathers
Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance
253
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Aqil Aegivan wrote:Call me crazy but doesn't Caldari Sentinel get a weak shield bonus vs lasers?
I think its lucky to get one at all, lasers are suposed to be shields direct counter, and while im sure caldari would love to fix that it would feel off if they magicaly found the way to counter shields direct counter. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1401
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aqil Aegivan wrote:Call me crazy but doesn't Caldari Sentinel get a weak shield bonus vs lasers? Nope. Sentinels get a 15% reduction to their direct factional enemy and a 10% resistance to their indirect factional enemy. Caldari and Amarr are allies so caldari do not receive a bonus resist against lasers.
ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
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Daxxis KANNAH
Distinct Covert Initiative
613
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
-- The Minmatar Bonus has a typo and should be GÇ£2% Armor Resistance to Hybrid-Rail DamageGÇ¥ instead of GÇ£Hybrid-Blaster DamageGÇ¥. I believe that this is a typo because the written bonus does not follow the same pattern that all of the other suits follow.
Actually the odd one seems to be Amarr
Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar all have 3% resistance to Rival, 2% resistance to Ally
Only Amarr has 3% Rival, 2% Rival's ally
Good stuff regardless.
In your blind spot
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Daxxis KANNAH
Distinct Covert Initiative
613
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Aqil Aegivan wrote:Call me crazy but doesn't Caldari Sentinel get a weak shield bonus vs lasers? Nope. Sentinels get a 15% reduction to their direct factional enemy and a 10% resistance to their indirect factional enemy. Caldari and Amarr are allies so caldari do not receive a bonus resist against lasers.
Thats not what the linked post says.
In your blind spot
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1403
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
Daxxis KANNAH wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Aqil Aegivan wrote:Call me crazy but doesn't Caldari Sentinel get a weak shield bonus vs lasers? Nope. Sentinels get a 15% reduction to their direct factional enemy and a 10% resistance to their indirect factional enemy. Caldari and Amarr are allies so caldari do not receive a bonus resist against lasers. Thats not what the linked post says.
Well ****, youre right. Not sure how I ****** that one up. When I get back to my computer Ill pull up my spreadsheet and fix it.
ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
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Free Beers
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1755
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
if they would only just use the 4 damage and resist types and then give suits and modules resists like in eve it would be eaiser. I feel like this is a step in the right direction (after we were told we were to stupid to handle it) but i would like it done right. Feels most like "lets try this" instead of a real damage and resist system.
Also pokey great analysis here.
^^^ If anyone who is running for cpm1 is reading this thread this is what you need, not your bull**** fake platform no one cares about
[CCP]FoxFour> STFU beers[CCP]FoxFour> Erm
[CCP]FoxFour> I mean[CCP]FoxFour> shit
[CCP]FoxFour> you were defending me
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Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1485
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
As Daxxis said, it seems the typo is on the Amarr one and not the Minmatar one, as Amarr has resistance against it's direct rival (Minmatar) and it's other rival (Gallente), while the other three has resistances against their direct rival and their ally.
So Amarr should probably have resistance against Minmatar and Caldari.
Winner of the EU Squad Cup & the closed beta Tester's Tournament.
Go Go Power Rangers!
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1407
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
Free Beers wrote: ^^^ If anyone who is running for cpm1 is reading this thread this is what you need, not your bull**** fake platform no one cares about
Exactly.
Im here to support the player base and the game, not looking for fame and glory. Is that not what what cpm should be all about?
Now I just need to stop reading **** off my phone so I dont make stupid mistakes like misread the bonuses >_<
ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1407
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:As Daxxis said, it seems the typo is on the Amarr one and not the Minmatar one, as Amarr has resistance against it's direct rival (Minmatar) and it's other rival (Gallente), while the other three has resistances against their direct rival and their ally.
So Amarr should probably have resistance against Minmatar and Caldari.
Yeah I messed up when I was reading and used the Amarr as the baseline when it was actually the black sheep. Fixes coming soon, sorry guys!
ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
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Aqil Aegivan
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
262
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
Aqil Aegivan wrote:Flint Beastgood III wrote: Thanks for clearing that up, I had a feeling I was overlooking something.
Well you're not wrong about there being something off in the way the resistances are structured and I'd really prefer to have the bonuses follow lore too. For the record, moving the Amarr small resist to Caldari Weapons makes almost as much sense as changing the Minmatar one, it's just that a shield bonus vs rails is worth less than a shield bonus vs plasma (CF. damage profiles). I was mostly responding to your original point about combating the damage type of your enemy's ally, the complication arises because there are two races with mixed bonuses and two races with double bonuses so the Caldari small resist against Amarr weapons and the Gallente small resist against Minmatar weapons is the only way to go without devaluing bonuses.
For people discussing which bonus is a typo. |
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Mordecai Sanguine
What The French
266
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:33:00 -
[21] - Quote
Nice Job !!!! But what i see is than Minmatarr REALLY need a rework.
Projectile weapons are effective against almost everyone. -5% shield and +10% armor is stupid and unbalanced. Bring -5%/5%. While they're already the easier to fit. (You can fit 3-4 CR for a single SCR......).
Locus grenades are REALLY too effective and too easy to cook. Nerf damage on them (Not just for Sentinel). Or bring Max of 2 and make the PG/CPU higher for them. (Like an AV-grenade.)
I used a CR today with my commando. Someone can tell me why i just killed 2 proto with a 8 million Sp commando with almost NO PASSIVE at STD level. They didn't even had the time to shoot me...... This cR is REALLY too much powerful. Heavily hurt armor and also hurt shields as well......
No modules Laser rifle (But i don't use it.) Combat Rifle STD. Level 5 of use but no proficiency. Nanohive STD.
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jerrmy12 kahoalii
The Phoenix Federation
315
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:SCOPE:I was sitting at lunch the other day and decided I would do some simple calcs on the Sentinel bonuses that popped up on the Sisi server. For those of you who have not seen the data mine information yet, Aeon Amadi was kind enough to post it here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134173The Sentinel Bonus gives resistances to certain damage types based off the race of the suit. For a review of damage types please look at this DevBlog: http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/11/weapons-of-uprising-1.7/I will attempt to determine what damage type is best for dealing with each Sentinel if these bonuses and values do indeed make it into 1.8 ASSUMPTIONS:-- Sentinel Skill assumed to be at Level V -- GÇ£Blast DamageGÇ¥ equates to GÇ£Explosive DamageGÇ¥ -- The Minmatar Bonus has a typo and should be GÇ£2% Armor Resistance to Hybrid-Rail DamageGÇ¥ instead of GÇ£Hybrid-Blaster DamageGÇ¥. I believe that this is a typo because the written bonus does not follow the same pattern that all of the other suits follow. --Bonuses are Multiplicative to base Shield/Armor resist/weakness values. CALCULATION:Efficiency Rating = (Native Damage Multiplier * Skill Damage Reduction Multiplier)*100% Example: Minmatar -15% Shield Damage from Laser Weapons (1.2 * .85)*100%=102% Caldari SentinelShieldsLaser = 120% Hybrid Blasters = 96.5% Hybrid Rail = 90% Projectile = 85.5% Explosive = 60% ArmorLaser = 80% Hybrid Blasters =90% Hybrid Rail = 110% Projectile = 110% Explosive = 90% Amarr SentinelShieldsLaser = 120% Hybrid Blasters = 99% Hybrid Rail = 90% Projectile = 95% Explosive = 60% ArmorLaser = 80% Hybrid Blasters =90% Hybrid Rail = 110% Projectile =93.5% Explosive = 90% Gallente SentinelShieldsLaser = 120% Hybrid Blasters = 110% Hybrid Rail = 90% Projectile = 95% Explosive = 60% ArmorLaser = 72% Hybrid Blasters =90% Hybrid Rail = 99% Projectile = 110% Explosive = 90% Minmatar SentinelShieldsLaser = 102% Hybrid Blasters = 110% Hybrid Rail = 90% Projectile = 95% Explosive = 60% ArmorLaser = 80% Hybrid Blasters =90% Hybrid Rail = 99% Projectile = 110% Explosive = 90% ANALYSIS : CaldariWith a massive pool of shield HP, explosive weapons will be essentially useless against these suit. Its shields resist nearly every damage type making it highly versatile against most weapons. However with no additional resistance against EM Damage, Laser weapons and Flux grenades will make short work of these Sentinels. AmarrThe Amarr Sentinel is effectively a hybrid tank due to its equal pools of Shield and Armor, but it does have more focus on armor when it comes to modules. Because of this, Hybrid Rail weapons will be the best choice to take these guys down, due to the fact that they will still receive 110% efficiency against the Amarr Sentinel's armor. GallenteThe Sentinel's natural resistance to explosive weapons is the biggest asset for the Gallente Sentinel. On top of that, Hybrid Rail and Laser weapons will have significantly reduced effectiveness. Projectile weapons are the best choice when fighting Gallente Sentinels. MinmatarThe Minmatar Sentinel has a very even balance of resistances. It is neither highly resistant or highly weak to any particular damage type. This allows it to shield or armor tank with few downsides making them highly unpredictable. Armor Tanked Minmatar Sentinels should taken out with Projectile Weapons and Shield Tanked Minmatar Sentinels should be taken out with Hybrid Blaster weapons. CONCLUSIONDamage specific resistances is an interesting addition to infantry combat and will add some new dynamics to combat. It is important to remember that sometimes your enemy will have the ideal fit to counter your. For example, if you try to fight a Gallente Sentinel with a Scrambler Rifle, you're gonna have a bad time. It doesn't mean that the Gallente Sentinel is overpowered, it just means that you had the wrong weapon for that particular confrontation. As a personal opinion, I think this is a step in the right direction for Sentinels, as Heavies have been needing some much needed love and the Sentinel suits actually have a purpose now. Also remember that this report assumes that the values and bonuses found on Sisi are correct; remember that they are subject to change. I hope you found this information useful Welp im going gallente sentinal, caldari sentinal looks terrible
I use a tablet so beware of typos
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Daxxis KANNAH
Distinct Covert Initiative
613
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
Mordecai Sanguine wrote: While they're already the easier to fit. (You can fit 3-4 CR for a single SCR......).
This is misinformation. You are speaking about difference in PG. You cant actually fit 3-4 CR's given the same amount of CPU/PG.
Also while the CR is easier to use, a skilled ScR user can take down foes from farther away and do so more economically because charged shots do way more damage. The ammo pool of an ScR can allow a user to kill many foes and seldom have to resupply.
In a thread like this its better for all to keep it to just the plain information.
In your blind spot
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The Attorney General
1737
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
I don't see anything about the bonuses saying they are per level.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1409
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:47:00 -
[25] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:I don't see anything about the bonuses saying they are per level.
Common sense does. No skills in EVE or Dust offer a flat bonus.
ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
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The Attorney General
1737
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Common sense does. No skills in EVE or Dust offer a flat bonus.
Did they fix the current sentinel skill?
Also, assuming common sense from CCP is foolish.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1411
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Posted - 2014.01.10 20:53:00 -
[27] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
Common sense does. No skills in EVE or Dust offer a flat bonus.
Did they fix the current sentinel skill? Also, assuming common sense from CCP is foolish.
No sure what you're getting at, but if it makes you feel better I'll update the Assumption section to include that I'm assuming the bonus is per level. I find it highly unlikely that the Sentinel would be the only specialty dropsuit that does not have a scaling racial bonus, and thus I'm assuming it is a typo.
ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1411
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Posted - 2014.01.10 21:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
Aqil Aegivan wrote:Aqil Aegivan wrote:Flint Beastgood III wrote: Thanks for clearing that up, I had a feeling I was overlooking something.
Well you're not wrong about there being something off in the way the resistances are structured and I'd really prefer to have the bonuses follow lore too. For the record, moving the Amarr small resist to Caldari Weapons makes almost as much sense as changing the Minmatar one, it's just that a shield bonus vs rails is worth less than a shield bonus vs plasma (CF. damage profiles). I was mostly responding to your original point about combating the damage type of your enemy's ally, the complication arises because there are two races with mixed bonuses and two races with double bonuses so the Caldari small resist against Amarr weapons and the Gallente small resist against Minmatar weapons is the only way to go without devaluing bonuses. For people discussing which bonus is a typo.
Looking at it again you're correct.
I think I was getting too caught up in racial differences instead of looking at the actual damage types.
Caldari are Shields, They are weak to Blaster and Laser weapons, They get the big Gallente resist because they're enemies, and the small Amarr resist because they're weakest to laser.
Gallente are Armor, They are weak to Rail and Projectile weapons, They get the big Caldari resist because they're enemies, and the small Minmatar resist because they're also weak to projectile.
Amarr are Hybrid, emphasis on armor. They are weak to Projectile and Blaster, they get the big Minmatar resist for armor because they're enemies and projectile is strong vs armor, and Gallente for shields because shields are weak to Gallente (And I think they're trying to avoid resisting the race's own weapon type)
Here is the issue, at this point we have 2 Gallente Resists, 2 Minmatar Resists, 1 Amarr Resist, and 1 Caldari Resist. So by this logic the Minmatar HAS to resist Amarr and Caldari, otherwise we have an imbalance of damage types because the Caldari would only be resisted by the Gallente Sentinel.
If the Minmatar are truly supposed to be hybrid tanked, resisting both Amarr and Gallente would leave them very weak in terms of armor, so by that logic the Gallente resist should be Caldari.
Another issue to consider is that Lasers do +20% to shields, but because explosives are already resisted, the best weapon to use against armor is either Rail or Projectile, but those only offer +10% to armor. However, Projectile does 5% more damage to shields than Rail does, making it superior overall. Therefor if the Minmatar are going to resist the significantly stronger Laser weapons, the Amarr should at the very least resist the slightly better Projectile over Rail.
With all of that said I'm going to stick with my original conclusion that the Minmatar Sentinal has a Typo, and that they have big resist against Lasers for shields, and a small resist against Rail for armor. Amarr keep their big resist against Projectile on armor, and small resist against Blaster on shields.
ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
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Scalesdini
BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
224
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Posted - 2014.01.10 23:35:00 -
[29] - Quote
Quote:With all of that said I'm going to stick with my original conclusion that the Minmatar Sentinal has a Typo, and that they have big resist against Lasers for shields, and a small resist against Rail for armor. Amarr keep their big resist against Projectile on armor, and small resist against Blaster on shields.
Sounds good. Makes me lean more towards the Winmatar heavy if that's indeed the case. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1434
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Posted - 2014.01.11 04:55:00 -
[30] - Quote
Scalesdini wrote:Quote:With all of that said I'm going to stick with my original conclusion that the Minmatar Sentinal has a Typo, and that they have big resist against Lasers for shields, and a small resist against Rail for armor. Amarr keep their big resist against Projectile on armor, and small resist against Blaster on shields. Sounds good. Makes me lean more towards the Winmatar heavy if that's indeed the case.
It seems like that will be the most flexible, and with the ability to either shield or armor tank you're going to be harder to predict. They'll probably have the lowest HP, but the higher sprint speed will make for a unique playstyle for a Heavy.
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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