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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Kato Ymmij
The Exemplars Top Men.
18
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Posted - 2014.01.13 19:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
I would rather not have the cal scout locked into using sniper rifles or cloaks for that matter. I would prefer that scouts got fitting reduction bonuses for biotics/profile modules and kept their sidearm. I still feel that the best choice for cloaks is to make it scout only equipment so scouts will get decent passive bonuses and won't be forced to use a specific piece of equipment. |
Kato Ymmij
The Exemplars Top Men.
19
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Posted - 2014.01.13 20:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Driftward wrote:I have no problem with removing sidearm slots to get a second equipment. Here's why.
With the cloak as a pretty much "must" on the scout that removes a lot of pressure to have a secondary weapon that could "handle" ranged encounters (ie SMG/ScrPistol) as an alternative to a close range weapon (shotgun/NK) in case we got caught out in the open. I'm assuming that the cloak is a viable method of moving across open territory etc... with a timer that is long enough to make it worthwhile.
I rarely if ever run with a sidearm anyways, preferring to use my fitting for additional modules or higher tier modules. Personally, I think that the extra versatility you get from a second equipment (especially in placing covert uplinks, so forth) is worth so much more than a "hold-out" weapon.
Besides this also means that (with the buff to scout profile to 35 dB) you can forgo the cloak in some occasions to get maybe a RE and nanohive or multiple prox mine fits. So many options are opened up with 2 equipment slots.
I do agree that some of the racials should keep their sidearm and 1 equipment slots. I disagree with the idea of having multiple configs of dropsuits within one race. There should be a cost to having the increased variety (that cost would be SP investment for a different racial suit).
My two biggest concerns over the proposed update have just been allayed. Other items are still concerning but less difficult to adapt to.
Then you're scanned by a proto gal logi and your stealth link meant nothing. You're crossing a field and.......scanned by a proto gal logi. They shoot you once and now you can't flee b/c of the stunlock effect. You sneak up on an unsuspecting victim and fire with a shotgun or slash with a nk, they're still alive thanks to the new health buffs and start to jump around like a monkey on crack. They get out of your 5m optimal b/c follow up shots fail to register and now you have to reload.....and you're dead from back pedal hip fire (an smg could have saved your life). |
Kato Ymmij
The Exemplars Top Men.
25
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Posted - 2014.01.13 23:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Kato Ymmij wrote:...
Then you're scanned by a proto gal logi and your stealth link meant nothing. You're crossing a field and.......scanned by a proto gal logi. Actually, it wont be that dificult for a scout to avoid scans, still. If they stick to the proposed 35dB default profile, then it only takes damping level3, and 2xadv damps, to avoid normal proto scanners, even with gallente logi bonus. Your profile wil be 21.74dB, if I did the math right. The focused duvolle will still be a problem of course. But if barely anyone runs them now, most likely barely anyone will run them in the future. I think CCP didnt do too badly with the scaling this time. This part, actually IS a slight buff to scouts, in that it will be more difficult, if not impossible, for medium frames, to get under scans now. but not for scouts. So in that sense, it would be good for scouts to see a bunch of gallente logi scanners in the field.
So a standard/adv scout suit has to sacrifice its only 2 low slots in order to avoid scanners (have to give up biotics/repair/health). You call that a buff for scouts? You must not run into paranoid proto stompers very much. |
Kato Ymmij
The Exemplars Top Men.
25
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Posted - 2014.01.14 00:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Kato Ymmij wrote:Then you're scanned by a proto gal logi and your stealth link meant nothing. You're crossing a field and.......scanned by a proto gal logi. They shoot you once and now you can't flee b/c of the stunlock effect. You sneak up on an unsuspecting victim and fire with a shotgun or slash with a nk, they're still alive thanks to the new health buffs and start to jump around like a monkey on crack. They get out of your 5m optimal b/c follow up shots fail to register and now you have to reload.....and you're dead from back pedal hip fire (an smg could have saved your life). Except that being scanned doesn't uncloak you, and as a smart Scout, you're not making yourself an easy target. Also, the "stunlock" effect doesn't stop you from moving at all, just slows you from a full sprint, which you might not need anyway. And that's assuming the Scout in question didn't choose to stack profile dampeners along with our reduced base profile, making us MUCH harder to pick up even with that Proto Scanner of yours. Those "health buffs" you're talking about are actually going to be nerfs to specific weapons to increase TTK - "not a blanket nerf on all weapons" means NOT A BLANKET NERF ON ALL WEAPONS, which means the weapons designed for instant-kill potential should retain that capability. My Shotgun still instant kills most non-Heavy targets like it should, and so do our Knives. You're also assuming poor hit detection that is progressively more rare as the devs work on improving the game. And you're assuming that another player is not only reacting, but reacting perfectly as soon as they take fire from an enemy they didn't see coming, and somehow, in a slower suit, backing up while firing and magically moving faster than the Scout that's chasing them as they try and back up. If you can assume perfect reactions on the victim of a sneak attack, I can assume a perfect reaction from the attacker in response to the backpedalling, meaning that instead of getting out of range, you stay about 2m apart while the Scout is blasting away with an 8-round semi-auto Shotgun that takes at least 80% of its target's health per shot at that range. Pretty sure you're dead four times over before I need to reload, even with a worst-case scenario of half my shots missing you'd die twice. Honestly, with how good many Scouts have already gotten at getting ourselves into position WITHOUT cloaking, frequently even when facing players with Scanners, it's wholly reasonable for Scouts to sneak into position using our current tactics, and only cloak on the way back out, after our attacks have alerted the enemy team to our presence.
As for a cloak being "necessary", if we get 2 equipment slots, I'm going to have at least a few Nanohive/Repair Tool fittings. Probably running Shotguns on at least 2 of them.
I don't think it's going to be very hard to shoot the glowing red chevron in the middle of the field (I was using his field example). I wish my shotgun could insta kill tanked proto suits who spin scan the whole match, since those are usually the only people who can walk away from a shotgun hit aside from heavies. It takes very little skill to notice that you've been shot in the back and to spin around while panic jumping/firing (hit detection still has issues). I'm not worried about killing incompetent players, I'm am concerned about tanked proto stompers hopping around after they've been shot once and not having a sidearm when hit detection decides to screw me over. I seriously doubt you hit all your shotgun shots when someone is randomly jumping around while hip firing at you (good luck fighting multiple people).
Scouts don't have to use the cloak, but it doesn't change the fact that you are gimping yourself if you don't. |
Kato Ymmij
The Exemplars Top Men.
27
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Posted - 2014.01.14 18:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Shutter Fly wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Shutter Fly wrote:Imagine this situation, one that is incredibly likely and often unavoidable.
Two assault players are standing next to each other, they hear a decloak and a shotgun blast. The second blast finishes the first assault as he warns the 2nd it is a Gal Scout. Instead of attempting to immediately fight back, he started running after hearing the first shot, knowing that the adversary is much less effective at >5m and has no other means of attack. He then turns and collects his guaranteed kill as the scout turns to run after finishing the first adversary. Meaning sneaking up on just two adversaries cloaked with a shotgun would still leave the scout at a disadvantage.
If the scout had a possibility of a sidearm, turning and running may have been suicide for the assault, as an SMG or ScP would have made quick work of him. The assault would have had to choose whether to run and predict the absence of a sidearm, or immediately fight back and rely on his skill and gun game. Giving the scout a sidearm makes the situation much more dynamic and rewarding of both intelligent and skillful play by both parties, which results in a much healthier and much more enjoyable game. And here's how the Scout avoids this problem. Two Assault players are standing next to each other. They hear a Shotgun blast, and one is dead already because the Scout aimed high. The other turns towards his partner as he falls, seeing the Scout already turning to take a shot at him. By the time he can think to back up, he's taken a hit, and his suit is heavily damaged. Because he's facing the Scout, any attempt to backpedal can be matched by the Scout, so the second shot finishes the job. The sound of multiple Shotgun blasts, and the sight of 2 dead teammates on the kill feed has drawn reinforcements towards the Scout, but as they approach, they hear a different sound. By the time they show up, there's no trace of the killer. That's assuming a shotgun headshot will ohk an assault, which at the current time isn't always the case. If we're assuming all Proto on both sides, it often isn't the case, as it is nearly impossible to get a FULL headshot with the shotgun. Since we can only consider what we currently know/have, then your proposed situation isn't necessarily viable, as Proto vs Proto means the shotgun would be 2HK or 3HK at best. I can OHK protosuits semi-regularly using a Militia Shotgun with no damage mods. If I don't OHK, either I missed (unlikely when hitting with the element of surprise on my side) or they're so close to death that I can go for the melee kill before turning to shoot the other guy. When I bring a real Shotgun or my Militia fit with damage mods, only Heavies and supertank Logis take more than one hit.
Which militia light frame allows you to stack damages mods, let alone good ones to make a difference (min light has zero highs and gal only has 1)? Now I know you're talking out of your ass if you expect me to believe that you're sneaking up on and killing tanked logis who are spin scanning or heavies who take around 3 shots nowadays to down regularly. Good heavies will also spin right around and mow you down in the blink of an eye. |
Kato Ymmij
The Exemplars Top Men.
27
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Posted - 2014.01.14 20:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Django Quik wrote:Been reading all of this over the last day or so and am frankly dismayed to see scouts themselves suggesting horrible "compromises". We don't deserve compromise in order to get the honestly tiny and long needed buffs we want. A second equipment slot added to our suits as they stand would not make them OP by a long shot.
Everyone needs to keep in mind that all along we've all said scouts need to be viable without relying entirely on cloaks. There are many current useful fits and playstyles that would disappear if our sidearm slots are taken away and that would be terrible for the game. New suits and equipment are supposed to add diversity to this game, not reduce it!
NO to any compromises! You seem to be suffering under the interesting illusion that we actually have any power to say "NO". It seems quite obvious that we're not going to get the pure addition. It seems also quite obvious that if we cant make up our collective minds on what we'd prefer to trade... then CCP will pick the trade for us.
Maybe you're right, maybe it won't be so bad for scouts. CCP might actually give us more health than a drop uplink. Or hell, they might skip the middle man and just rename the scout class to CLOAK since that is what all scouts we be required to run to stay competitive w/ the predator logis. I just don't understand how anyone can think that the scout class will suddenly become op with the addition of an extra slot ( everyone is assuming that cloaks are godmode for some reason). |
Kato Ymmij
The Exemplars Top Men.
29
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Posted - 2014.01.14 22:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Man, i just spit out a ton of numbers. I hope you guys will read the two posts I made about speed and shotguns
I liked it, but I still want to know what militia light frame he's using to stack damage mods. |
Kato Ymmij
The Exemplars Top Men.
29
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Posted - 2014.01.14 22:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:Shutter Fly wrote:EDIT: REs are not viable in this situation, as the scout would have to decloak (making a noise), plant the RE (making another obvious noise), then back up and wait for it to arm, getting killed long before this is all complete. Grenades would result in the same situation, except having to stand and cook the grenade rather than waiting for arming time. RE's placed before you cloak in the path of a fall back position. The use of corners and cover. Contact grenade (you know the ones you don't have to cook). Looking at targets shield and armor vs the weapon you are using which leads to the should you move on to a different target or stalk them a bit till they are more vulnerable. Having the ability to pick your fights is a BIG advantage.
Then you're scanned by a proto gal logi b/c most scout suits will not have a profile dampening bonus. Heck, let's be real, a predator logi was stalking you the whole time. |
Kato Ymmij
The Exemplars Top Men.
29
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Posted - 2014.01.15 00:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:Kato Ymmij wrote:voidfaction wrote:Shutter Fly wrote:EDIT: REs are not viable in this situation, as the scout would have to decloak (making a noise), plant the RE (making another obvious noise), then back up and wait for it to arm, getting killed long before this is all complete. Grenades would result in the same situation, except having to stand and cook the grenade rather than waiting for arming time. RE's placed before you cloak in the path of a fall back position. The use of corners and cover. Contact grenade (you know the ones you don't have to cook). Looking at targets shield and armor vs the weapon you are using which leads to the should you move on to a different target or stalk them a bit till they are more vulnerable. Having the ability to pick your fights is a BIG advantage. Then you're scanned by a proto gal logi b/c most scout suits will not have a profile dampening bonus. Heck, let's be real, a predator logi was stalking you the whole time. im perfectly fine have 1 suit that -might- be able to scan me depending if im in super stealth suit or super scan suit. I believe in a counter and don't think I should be invisible to everything in the game. I suit counter out of 16 is not bad to me seems a little OP on my part to tell you the truth because I will be able to hide from even the proto gallente logi if i choose to.
I don't mind that there is a counter for scouts, but I dislike the fact that the scout has to sacrifice all of it's low slots in order to avoid that counter (not all scouts will even be able to do so). Max Gal Logi/Best Scanner = Max Scout/1 complex profile dampener, the sp investment for profile dampeners should equal scanners (CCP could make it so that precision enhancement could improve scanning results). |
Kato Ymmij
The Exemplars Top Men.
29
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Posted - 2014.01.15 23:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Django Quik wrote:Weapons that can not be used on their own - Mass driver - too little ammo Sniper - too little ammo, long range only Pistol - too little ammo Shotgun - too little ammo, short range only Knives - short range only Swarms - AV only I use Shotguns on their own on several fittings, and have a Swarm Logi fitting with no sidearm slot available. Swarms become reliant on squadmates when you don't have a sidearm, but they can be used on their own.
It's a combination of little ammo and how many shots you have in a clip. 8 shots for the shotgun (2 for the breach) is not a lot especially when you turn a corner and 4 guys are staring back at you. Heck, even when none of them are looking your way you still will probably not have enough shots to kill them all (will be worse with the upcoming health buffs/resistances). I could equip nova knives on a heavy and do moderately well, does that make it viable for everyone? |
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Kato Ymmij
The Exemplars Top Men.
29
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Posted - 2014.01.15 23:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tch Tch wrote:Shotguns have plenty of ammo, its the range and everyone running when they see it.
Last night I got five kills from my first clip on Venerable Phage. Then I went out and did scouty things like destroying uplinks. Finished 6/5 350... 8 uplinks, 2 hives.
I don't see a scout as a slayer role. They are best used to get battlefield intelligence and break the momentum of the reds. Mind you a scanner does better at intelligence and a heavy-logi combo is better at breaking a frontal assault.
Why shouldn't I be able to do both? If I can sneak behind the enemy team, why shouldn't I be allowed to kill them all (8 shots will not be enough if I'm engaging several people at once)? |
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