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Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.01.13 12:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
shaman oga wrote:CCP Remnant wrote: Well, the thinking was to give the second EQP slot to GA, CA, AM suits and leave the Minmatar with one EQP slot and its sidearm. Still debating that one though.
Why not both? Type A and type B, like in chromo Two types of specialist Light Frame suit - just like Medium and Heavy suits get. Medium has Assault and Logi, Heavy has Sentinel and Commando, and I propose that we should get Scouts and Infiltrators for Light Frames.
Scouts qould have 1 Equipment slot, slots for Light Weapon and Sidearm, and a bonus reduction to Scan Precision on Active Scanners (the Precision stat on the Scanners would need to be increased so this ends up as a nerf to scanning Logis instead of making Proto Scanners literally unbeatable).
Infiltrator suits with 2 Equipment slots, no Sidearm, and the planned cloak fitting bonus.
ALL Light Frame suits - including the basic frames - should get the reduced shimmer effect while cloaked. This way, an Infiltrator suit will be the ideal cloak platform, but a Scout will still use the cloak better than an Assault or Logi could, and players still training up for the Infiltrator suit would see some benefit from using the suit they're starting to invest in to unlock their intended role. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4296
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Posted - 2014.01.13 14:43:00 -
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Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Just bring back type-IIs. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
Light Frame variants.
Heavy: Sentinel/Commando. Medium: Assault/Logi. Light: Scout/Infiltrator.
The Scout would remain as-is - no fitting bonus on cloaks, Light weapon and Sidearm with only one Equipment slot, and maybe a bonus to Active Scanners to better fill the "Scout" role.
Infiltrators would be the reworked Scout suit with fitting bonus for Cloaks, and the trade-off with an extra Equipment slot in exchange for their Sidearm.
All Light Frame suits should get the reduced "shimmer" effect when cloaked, not just the Infiltrator, but with the higher fitting costs, it will still be less than optimal if you build a cloaked non-Infiltrator suit. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4296
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Posted - 2014.01.13 14:53:00 -
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Daxxis KANNAH wrote:@Garrett
I thought the Pilot suit was to be the 2nd Light frame variant 1. Was it ever confirmed it would be Light? 2. Is it in the game yet? 3. Is it confirmed to be coming in 1.8? |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.01.13 15:08:00 -
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Daxxis KANNAH wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Daxxis KANNAH wrote:@Garrett
I thought the Pilot suit was to be the 2nd Light frame variant 1. Was it ever confirmed it would be Light? 2. Is it in the game yet? 3. Is it confirmed to be coming in 1.8? Thought is was assumed to be light given the brief time the skills and stuff showed up in the game. When it comes who knows. I wouldnt mind the pilot suit being the only one able to access hav / ds but I'm sure some will be up in arms about that. It was assumed based on concept art of a non-Gallente suit that looked like a Light Frame and showed up with no label confirming it was a Pilot suit. Stats on the early model people saw were low enough to be comparable with Scouts at the time, but still high enough that it could have been a low-durability Medium suit just as easily.
There's no actual evidence I'm aware of to support that assumption, and there's definitely no official confirmation.
And I'd support a Pilot suit being required to drive a tank or pilot a Dropship (probably also for MAVs and MTACs when they show up), but I don't think it should be a requirement for gunners or passengers. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.01.13 15:17:00 -
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Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Daxxis KANNAH wrote:@Garrett
I thought the Pilot suit was to be the 2nd Light frame variant 1. Was it ever confirmed it would be Light? 2. Is it in the game yet? 3. Is it confirmed to be coming in 1.8? 1. Yes it's skills were dropped by accident at the beginning of uprising, as a light frame 2. See "1.". 3. What does that have to do with anything. 1. I appear to have missed that. The only info I've seen came without a specified frame size, and people assumed it was Light because it had less EHP than the basic Medium Frame.
2. That would be "no" then.
3. It's actually the main point. There's no indication that the Pilot Suit will exist in-game as of 1.8, which is when the cloak and other items are supposed to be showing up. That means there will still, at that time, be a lack of Light Frame variants compared with the other suit types, so it's reasonable to suggest the addition of a secondary suit type at this point. Command suits are meant to be a future development, and it would make the most sense for them to be Medium Frame suits, and I'm sure CCP can come up with another Heavy Frame idea to round everything out by the time the Pilot suit is ready. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.01.13 15:20:00 -
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Krom Ganesh wrote:IgniteableAura wrote:CCP Remnant wrote:So here's a question... would you like a Caldari Scout skill that actually increased the precision of anyone caught within the passive radius even if there was NO UI FEEDBACK telling you the adjusted scan precision/profile values? I'd love to make the Caldari Scout a jammer suit, but without decent UI feedback it'd be more confusing than enjoyable If I understand this correctly, this is Inherently a buff to those surrounding the scout? While I understand the need to make scouts more useful in battle, this would only be useful to other non-scouts. I just sometimes get frustrated when scouts are thrown into the role of "supporting" other frames. Especially when other frames cant always keep up. Scouts are 9 times out of 10 better off running solo than in a group of medium frames. Mostly due to different attack angles and scan profiles. I feel Ewar in this iteration is better suited to a logistics role as they are more likely to be surrounded by blues. In terms of usability, Cal scout would need to have some exceptional range for it really useful. It would likely need a scan range bonus skill. This is still a useful bonus to a cal scout. This is essentially a bonus to the cal scout's precision that also happens to be helpful to the rest of the team. I hope it is more than 5% per level though (but I doubt they would be that generous). Logis should be for buffs, scouts should be for debuffs. Rather, just bump base scan range to 20 or 25. This helps all scouts and allows the cal to make a decent passive scanner fit. Edit: Myos are high slots. You seem to both be misunderstanding what an INCREASE in someone's Scan Precision means.
Higher Scan Precision means LESS ability to detect targets.
It's a NERF to enemies. It makes enemies near your suit less likely to see you OR anyone else on your team lighting up on their minimap/HUD. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4301
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Posted - 2014.01.13 15:49:00 -
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IgniteableAura wrote:I know exactly what lowering the precision of the enemy means. How is that at all useful to the scout, that already is not at all worried about their profile. Its a buff to nonscouts....which is exactly my point. A buff to a bunch of blues that you are never around anyway. When you're fighting Scout vs. Scout, and only one of you can see the other coming, who has the advantage? |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.01.13 15:56:00 -
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Krom Ganesh wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:IgniteableAura wrote:I know exactly what lowering the precision of the enemy means. How is that at all useful to the scout, that already is not at all worried about their profile. Its a buff to nonscouts....which is exactly my point. A buff to a bunch of blues that you are never around anyway. When you're fighting Scout vs. Scout, and only one of you can see the other coming, who has the advantage? Unless both scouts are stacking precision enhancers, neither scout is going to see each other either anyway. Or neither Scout has more than one non-Complex Profile Dampener and both have a decent amount of SP invested into Precision Enhancement. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.01.13 16:45:00 -
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Brynjar Reko wrote:If they went for this you should switch the names. An infiltrator only needs cloak and would benefit from two weapons. A scout doesn't need the firepower but the utility of two eq slots. I'd be fine with scouts just having two suit types to choose from, standard and type II.
Although I'm one of the people that would be fine with losing sidearm for eq if we've got to choose only one, but I can see your problems in deciding whether Minnie scouts should be an outlier and keep sidearms or what; maybe a Minmatar scout with two sidearms and two eq while other scouts get one primary and two eq? Minmatar do seem fond of their sidearms, and smg+knives sounds like a better proposal than using your primary for knives, though this probably alienates some other group of min scouts. If you're building a suit almost entirely around cloaking, it NEEDS to have the Cloak filling one equipment slot, which pretty much requires a second slot to be available for something else if you want any tactical versatility.
The proposal from CCP is to have a second equipment slot on a suit with a bonus to cloaking, but at the cost of a Sidearm.
I'm suggesting that they ADD that as a new suit, rather than replacing the current option with it. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4313
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Posted - 2014.01.13 19:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Scout Registry wrote:With respect, you're comparing Apples and Oranges that have "Apple" stickers on them. Fixed that for you. |
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Garrett Blacknova
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4318
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Posted - 2014.01.13 22:19:00 -
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Kato Ymmij wrote:Then you're scanned by a proto gal logi and your stealth link meant nothing. You're crossing a field and.......scanned by a proto gal logi. They shoot you once and now you can't flee b/c of the stunlock effect. You sneak up on an unsuspecting victim and fire with a shotgun or slash with a nk, they're still alive thanks to the new health buffs and start to jump around like a monkey on crack. They get out of your 5m optimal b/c follow up shots fail to register and now you have to reload.....and you're dead from back pedal hip fire (an smg could have saved your life). Except that being scanned doesn't uncloak you, and as a smart Scout, you're not making yourself an easy target. Also, the "stunlock" effect doesn't stop you from moving at all, just slows you from a full sprint, which you might not need anyway. And that's assuming the Scout in question didn't choose to stack profile dampeners along with our reduced base profile, making us MUCH harder to pick up even with that Proto Scanner of yours.
Those "health buffs" you're talking about are actually going to be nerfs to specific weapons to increase TTK - "not a blanket nerf on all weapons" means NOT A BLANKET NERF ON ALL WEAPONS, which means the weapons designed for instant-kill potential should retain that capability. My Shotgun still instant kills most non-Heavy targets like it should, and so do our Knives.
You're also assuming poor hit detection that is progressively more rare as the devs work on improving the game. And you're assuming that another player is not only reacting, but reacting perfectly as soon as they take fire from an enemy they didn't see coming, and somehow, in a slower suit, backing up while firing and magically moving faster than the Scout that's chasing them as they try and back up. If you can assume perfect reactions on the victim of a sneak attack, I can assume a perfect reaction from the attacker in response to the backpedalling, meaning that instead of getting out of range, you stay about 2m apart while the Scout is blasting away with an 8-round semi-auto Shotgun that takes at least 80% of its target's health per shot at that range. Pretty sure you're dead four times over before I need to reload, even with a worst-case scenario of half my shots missing you'd die twice.
Honestly, with how good many Scouts have already gotten at getting ourselves into position WITHOUT cloaking, frequently even when facing players with Scanners, it's wholly reasonable for Scouts to sneak into position using our current tactics, and only cloak on the way back out, after our attacks have alerted the enemy team to our presence.
As for a cloak being "necessary", if we get 2 equipment slots, I'm going to have at least a few Nanohive/Repair Tool fittings. Probably running Shotguns on at least 2 of them. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4322
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Posted - 2014.01.13 23:02:00 -
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Lucifalic wrote:Scouts lose theirs to get one extra equipment slot that, due to low cpu/pg, is forcing the cloak to take advantage of the terrible bonus they are getting... They get lowest health of all suits, low cpu/pg, low slot count, slightly more speed, slightly better dampening and precision.. You're assuming Scout PG and CPU aren't getting an increase when it's been mentioned that they probably are.
Also, the Scan Profile (and presumably Precision as well) will be getting a significant reduction (as in buff).
Combine those with being the only suit that will be able to fit a Cloak with minimal compromise, and the loss of sidearm doesn't look quite so horrible.
The more I think about it, the more I can see validity in the argument that we shouldn't lose our Sidearm slot for it, but at the same time, it doesn't seem too harsh a penalty for the buffs coming our way. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4329
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Posted - 2014.01.14 08:55:00 -
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Shutter Fly wrote:Imagine this situation, one that is incredibly likely and often unavoidable.
Two assault players are standing next to each other, they hear a decloak and a shotgun blast. The second blast finishes the first assault as he warns the 2nd it is a Gal Scout. Instead of attempting to immediately fight back, he started running after hearing the first shot, knowing that the adversary is much less effective at >5m and has no other means of attack. He then turns and collects his guaranteed kill as the scout turns to run after finishing the first adversary. Meaning sneaking up on just two adversaries cloaked with a shotgun would still leave the scout at a disadvantage.
If the scout had a possibility of a sidearm, turning and running may have been suicide for the assault, as an SMG or ScP would have made quick work of him. The assault would have had to choose whether to run and predict the absence of a sidearm, or immediately fight back and rely on his skill and gun game. Giving the scout a sidearm makes the situation much more dynamic and rewarding of both intelligent and skillful play by both parties, which results in a much healthier and much more enjoyable game. And here's how the Scout avoids this problem.
Two Assault players are standing next to each other. They hear a Shotgun blast, and one is dead already because the Scout aimed high. The other turns towards his partner as he falls, seeing the Scout already turning to take a shot at him. By the time he can think to back up, he's taken a hit, and his suit is heavily damaged. Because he's facing the Scout, any attempt to backpedal can be matched by the Scout, so the second shot finishes the job.
The sound of multiple Shotgun blasts, and the sight of 2 dead teammates on the kill feed has drawn reinforcements towards the Scout, but as they approach, they hear a different sound. By the time they show up, there's no trace of the killer. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4329
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Posted - 2014.01.14 09:41:00 -
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Shutter Fly wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Shutter Fly wrote:Imagine this situation, one that is incredibly likely and often unavoidable.
Two assault players are standing next to each other, they hear a decloak and a shotgun blast. The second blast finishes the first assault as he warns the 2nd it is a Gal Scout. Instead of attempting to immediately fight back, he started running after hearing the first shot, knowing that the adversary is much less effective at >5m and has no other means of attack. He then turns and collects his guaranteed kill as the scout turns to run after finishing the first adversary. Meaning sneaking up on just two adversaries cloaked with a shotgun would still leave the scout at a disadvantage.
If the scout had a possibility of a sidearm, turning and running may have been suicide for the assault, as an SMG or ScP would have made quick work of him. The assault would have had to choose whether to run and predict the absence of a sidearm, or immediately fight back and rely on his skill and gun game. Giving the scout a sidearm makes the situation much more dynamic and rewarding of both intelligent and skillful play by both parties, which results in a much healthier and much more enjoyable game. And here's how the Scout avoids this problem. Two Assault players are standing next to each other. They hear a Shotgun blast, and one is dead already because the Scout aimed high. The other turns towards his partner as he falls, seeing the Scout already turning to take a shot at him. By the time he can think to back up, he's taken a hit, and his suit is heavily damaged. Because he's facing the Scout, any attempt to backpedal can be matched by the Scout, so the second shot finishes the job. The sound of multiple Shotgun blasts, and the sight of 2 dead teammates on the kill feed has drawn reinforcements towards the Scout, but as they approach, they hear a different sound. By the time they show up, there's no trace of the killer. That's assuming a shotgun headshot will ohk an assault, which at the current time isn't always the case. If we're assuming all Proto on both sides, it often isn't the case, as it is nearly impossible to get a FULL headshot with the shotgun. Since we can only consider what we currently know/have, then your proposed situation isn't necessarily viable, as Proto vs Proto means the shotgun would be 2HK or 3HK at best. I can OHK protosuits semi-regularly using a Militia Shotgun with no damage mods. If I don't OHK, either I missed (unlikely when hitting with the element of surprise on my side) or they're so close to death that I can go for the melee kill before turning to shoot the other guy.
When I bring a real Shotgun or my Militia fit with damage mods, only Heavies and supertank Logis take more than one hit. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4330
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Posted - 2014.01.14 11:50:00 -
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Shutter Fly wrote:Assuming the average well fit proto has ~800 HP, then they weren't at full HP or weren't tanked properly. A militia shotgun cannot do 800HP of damage in a single headshot, not even to 100% shields, which in itself isn't possible. The proto shotgun has a bit more potential for an OHK, but it would still NEED a full headshot to do about 870HP of damage and would not OHK an armor tanked or dual tanked suit.
In case you were going to try to argue it, it is entirely reasonable to say the average PRO med frame has 800eHP. I know that a minmatar assault with 3 complex SEs and 2 enh APs has approximately 810eHP (about 1:1 for S:A). Considering it has the lowest base HP, and that all other assaults usually fit either the same or more in modules, 800 is a fair and even conservative average. Assuming every protosuit uses all their slots for tanking isn't what I'd call "conservative" personally. Even "fair" is quite a stretch. Also, assuming enough protosuits are well fit to use that as an average is beyond ridiculous. Even assuming the majority of protosuits have full proto fits is questionable. |
Garrett Blacknova
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Posted - 2014.01.14 21:56:00 -
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You guys want some logic to go with that vehicle hitbox thing? There are two reasons why vehicle hitboxes work better at high speed:
1. Size - larger hitboxes are easier to track accurately within the gameworld.
2. Moving parts. A tank - the vehicle with the most moving parts, has only 3 semi-independent sections to its hitbox. The hull, the main turret, and the weapon barrel. A Dropsuit, on the other hand, consists of at least 11 independent moving entities. This is assuming the feet aren't flexible, and that both hands are bound to the weapon model and not tracked independently. In addition to all the extra moving parts, the range of movement is much greater on the dropsuit than a tank. The movements are also more constant AND faster, but ALL parts of the character model and hitbox have to remain together at all times. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4336
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Posted - 2014.01.14 22:07:00 -
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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:I dont beleive that that is possible. Unless you have three damage mods, a shotgun does, at the most (at STD level) under 500 dmage with a 10% reduction to armor. considering that gallogis can have somewhere near 1000 armor, and close to 200 sheild, attacking them with a gun that does under 500 damage and one shotting them does not seem likely, unless they forgot to put any modules on their suit. In fact, I've run into basic gallente assaults that require >1 full headshot to kill, as they can easily fit 350+ armor in modules, not to mention a 200+ base. In general, it takes 2-3 shots to kill a proto semi tanked logi if all shots hit in optimal range. However, I dont doubt that you are good with a shotgun
We'd been talking about Assault suits at the time that comment came up. Which Assault suit is referred to as a "gallogi" again?
And I said I can "semi-regularly" OHK protosuits.
Also, pretty sure the 195% headshot damage can bring me a lot closer to 800 than 500 most of the time.
Lastly, one of the failure conditions I specified was that the enemy suit was weakened badly enough that I could finish them with melee, which, so far, has usually been the case when I land a clean headshot. |
Garrett Blacknova
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4337
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Posted - 2014.01.15 10:43:00 -
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Django Quik wrote:Weapons that can not be used on their own - Mass driver - too little ammo Sniper - too little ammo, long range only Pistol - too little ammo Shotgun - too little ammo, short range only Knives - short range only Swarms - AV only I use Shotguns on their own on several fittings, and have a Swarm Logi fitting with no sidearm slot available. Swarms become reliant on squadmates when you don't have a sidearm, but they can be used on their own. |
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