DUST Search - Request: Possible penalties for redline farming/hacking.

Thurak1 wrote:

honestly I like an idea i had a while back and posted on the forums.
If you are forced into the redline and a player can not stay out of the redline for more than 60 seconds your team forfeits and you loose.

The only redline punishments i agree with are when people are redline sniping whereas they are sitting in a position that i can not access and are shooting at me.
Also the redline was originaly not even in the game so i dont consider it to be part of the contract. It is something CCP put into the game so that people can't MCC camp you once they have dominated the BF and captured all the objectives.
The company that hires you does not give a darn how pretty things are on the BF they hired you to grab ground for them and that is all. How you do it is up to you.
If the rules were so strict that the contract was only fulfilled by capturing the null cannons to destroy the MCC and win and cloning out was not acceptable then it wouldnt come up as a win when you eliminate all the clones. Since you can win by cloning out the enemy on skirms and doms then it is an acceptable way to win.
Getting redlined is just an indication that you are not just outmatched but your team is severely outmatched. It stinks but it happens and it happens to pretty much all of us at some time.
Your proposed punishments for killing people while they are in their redline are ridiculous. Besides people and equipment are destroyed if they are behind the redline for too long. I have lost a couple tanks myself getting stuck behind the redline (fell off a cliff once that i wasnt paying attention to chasing down a LAV )

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Meee One Clones Of The Damned Zero-Day 68	Posted - 2013.12.31 03:28:00 - [1] - Quote 1. -100 wp for every kill,-50 for every eq,-100 for every hack (vehicle kills and sniper kills excluded) 2. loss of 10 of the most expensive fitting you have per kill/hack (even if you aren't using it to kill/hack with) 3.Instant death upon successful redline kill/hack. 4.-500k isk per kill/hack 5.loss of one (1) blueprint (militia fits excluded) 6.Instant death upon entering the readline Seem extreme? It isn't. The objective of the modes that use redlines is: -capture null cannons -fight for/defend null cannons It is NOT: -clone your enemies -farm the redline There is a mode for cloning called AMBUSH.There should be penalties for not staying on task.(just like real life) Anyone who says otherwise either,farms the redline or knows those that do and approve of it.
Artificer Ghost Bojo's School of the Trades 906	Posted - 2013.12.31 03:32:00 - [2] - Quote Nope. I'm not a redline sniper, but this is way too extreme to even be THINKING about implementing. ~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 451	Posted - 2013.12.31 03:35:00 - [3] - Quote Meee One wrote: 1. -100 wp for every kill,-50 for every eq,-100 for every hack (vehicle kills and sniper kills excluded) 2. loss of 10 of the most expensive fitting you have per kill/hack (even if you aren't using it to kill/hack with) 3.Instant death upon successful redline kill/hack. 4.-500k isk per kill/hack 5.loss of one (1) blueprint (militia fits excluded) 6.Instant death upon entering the readline Seem extreme? It isn't. The objective of the modes that use redlines is: -capture null cannons -fight for/defend null cannons It is NOT: -clone your enemies -farm the redline There is a mode for cloning called AMBUSH.There should be penalties for not staying on task.(just like real life) Anyone who says otherwise either,farms the redline or knows those that do and approve of it. So your saying punish a team that is winning? Terrible idea.
Meee One Clones Of The Damned Zero-Day 68	Posted - 2013.12.31 03:37:00 - [4] - Quote Artificer Ghost wrote: Nope. I'm not a redline sniper, but this is way too extreme to even be THINKING about implementing. There is a reason i have them numbered. Using all at once would be overkill. 1. is the one i would prefer the most
Meee One Clones Of The Damned Zero-Day 68	Posted - 2013.12.31 03:47:00 - [5] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: So your saying punish a team that is winning? Terrible idea. This is the standard 'herp derp bute weeree weening' In ambush winning this way would be fine. But not in domination/skirmish where you would be defying orders to do it. Re-read the last sentence of my first post while you are at it. These penalties would encourage players to actually venture out because they know they are actually some what safe. And it would be a BOON to noobs. Also,you sound like a sore winner.
Meee One Clones Of The Damned Zero-Day 68	Posted - 2013.12.31 04:07:00 - [6] - Quote It would be like if you contracted meee to finish your bathroom,and in the middle i leave to go mow your grass. IRL i could be sued for that,i thought New Eden was essentially a bunch of mega corporations,one things all businesses have to read is the fine print. Typically the bigger the job the bigger the punishment. Attacking/defending an area seems pretty huge. If i hired you to hack null cannons,and instead you're off chasing enemies i'd fire you and hire someone who could follow directions,or i'd penalise you for breach of contract. Which is why i'm requesting this. tl;dr Bad behavior shouldn't be rewarded.
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 451	Posted - 2013.12.31 04:13:00 - [7] - Quote I think you have just been redlined too many times. The contract is to win territory. The null cannons give a means to this end. You can also win by cloning out the enemy. In fact i have been in multiple matches where my team pulled victory from the jaws of defeat because our mcc was nearly destroyed but we were able to clone out the enemy. Punishing a team because your team sucks is a terrible idea. A co-ordinated attack from the redline is the best solution to getting redlined. I have been redlined many times myself and it sucks but punishing the other team because my team sucks is just silly. I can't believe you are even attempting to rationalize this argument. I also have never seen it where there was an uncaptured objective with a team redlined.
Meee One Clones Of The Damned Zero-Day 68	Posted - 2013.12.31 06:28:00 - [8] - Quote As part of a contract the redline is placed to show where you are contractually NOT supposed to go. You endorse violating a contract. Violations should carry penalties. Clone outs are acceptable in the course of accomplishing your MAIN task. They shouldn't be actively pursued. If you can't follow a contract you shouldn't be rewarded. And as a lesson to others your punishment MUST be severe to discourage contract breaching actions. From a business stand point it would be insane NOT to penalise. What lesson would Dust be teaching it's players? "It's ok if you break a contract there will be no punishment.' Also,when you start a mission you are TOLD your objectives: -capture null cannons to destroy the enemy MCC "taking the area" is something you made up out of thin air. EDIT: If i hire you under the pretext of house repair then say 'i want you to work on the kitchen' by your logic that means you can go into another part of MY house 'kuz imma fix it'
Delenne Arran Ivory Hounds 58	Posted - 2013.12.31 07:30:00 - [9] - Quote In Domination and Skirmish, the objective is to "Capture null cannons to destroy hostile MCC," yes. The REASON we're supposed to destroy the MCC is to render enemy forces unable to deploy clones to the area. We're hired to eliminate the enemy, whether that means blowing up their MCC or simply forcing them to run out of clones. We are, in fact, there to take territory. The easiest way to do that is by using the null cannons that happen to be in those areas to push the other guys out. As far as dealing with the redline, there are a lot of possible fixes, but punishing players for doing well enough to run the enemy team all the way back isn't the way to do it. It makes no sense to force the other team to have to stand around with their thumb up their ass until the losing team gets out of the redline.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 208	Posted - 2013.12.31 07:38:00 - [10] - Quote NO!!! GOD DAMN IT NO!for fucks sake this is the last thing this game needs, give a mercy kill option, if the other team is so incapable of even breaking free of the red line that they need this, the offensive team should be allowed to force end the match with the incentive of a SP/ISK bonus to do so. Quick end to unbalanced matches. this has been around for ever and every time I bring this up it gets some mild interest and then is forgotten and then some one else brings up redline sniping and/or unbalanced matches and isn't half as goddamn creative. You shouldn't get punished for doing you job(you're a ***** merc) efficiently nor should you get paid for failing to do your job at all. condescending hand-holding in any game especially a competitive shooter, makes for a **** game. the linked idea allows for the above paragraph to be true while making the game more enjoyable for all players involved, and not being excessively punishing for those on the losing side(in fact its less punishing for the losing side), or as the OP would have it boring OR costly for the winning side

Timothy Reaper WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 669	Posted - 2013.12.31 07:44:00 - [11] - Quote Meee One wrote: 1. -100 wp for every kill,-50 for every eq,-100 for every hack (vehicle kills and sniper kills excluded) 2. loss of 10 of the most expensive fitting you have per kill/hack (even if you aren't using it to kill/hack with) 3.Instant death upon successful redline kill/hack. 4.-500k isk per kill/hack 5.loss of one (1) blueprint (militia fits excluded) 6.Instant death upon entering the readline Seem extreme? It isn't. The objective of the modes that use redlines is: -capture null cannons -fight for/defend null cannons It is NOT: -clone your enemies -farm the redline There is a mode for cloning called AMBUSH.There should be penalties for not staying on task.(just like real life) Anyone who says otherwise either,farms the redline or knows those that do and approve of it. No. Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. Mark Twain
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 208	Posted - 2013.12.31 07:47:00 - [12] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: I think you have just been redlined too many times. The contract is to win territory. The null cannons give a means to this end. You can also win by cloning out the enemy. In fact i have been in multiple matches where my team pulled victory from the jaws of defeat because our mcc was nearly destroyed but we were able to clone out the enemy. Punishing a team because your team sucks is a terrible idea. A co-ordinated attack from the redline is the best solution to getting redlined. I have been redlined many times myself and it sucks but punishing the other team because my team sucks is just silly. I can't believe you are even attempting to rationalize this argument. I also have never seen it where there was an uncaptured objective with a team redlined. oh I've done that just to make the round less boring, but again how do you even implement the system the OP is suggesting, hell CCP can't even get FF kicks right on the first deployment(no offense CCP you did a great job just missed some things like every thing related to REs) how the hell are they gonna implement a system that a human judge would have a hard time calling well much less a programed system.
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 456	Posted - 2013.12.31 07:49:00 - [13] - Quote honestly I like an idea i had a while back and posted on the forums. If you are forced into the redline and a player can not stay out of the redline for more than 60 seconds your team forfeits and you loose. The only redline punishments i agree with are when people are redline sniping whereas they are sitting in a position that i can not access and are shooting at me. Also the redline was originaly not even in the game so i dont consider it to be part of the contract. It is something CCP put into the game so that people can't MCC camp you once they have dominated the BF and captured all the objectives. The company that hires you does not give a darn how pretty things are on the BF they hired you to grab ground for them and that is all. How you do it is up to you. If the rules were so strict that the contract was only fulfilled by capturing the null cannons to destroy the MCC and win and cloning out was not acceptable then it wouldnt come up as a win when you eliminate all the clones. Since you can win by cloning out the enemy on skirms and doms then it is an acceptable way to win. Getting redlined is just an indication that you are not just outmatched but your team is severely outmatched. It stinks but it happens and it happens to pretty much all of us at some time. Your proposed punishments for killing people while they are in their redline are ridiculous. Besides people and equipment are destroyed if they are behind the redline for too long. I have lost a couple tanks myself getting stuck behind the redline (fell off a cliff once that i wasnt paying attention to chasing down a LAV )
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 208	Posted - 2013.12.31 07:51:00 - [14] - Quote Meee One wrote: It would be like if you contracted meee to finish your bathroom,and in the middle i leave to go mow your grass. IRL i could be sued for that,i thought New Eden was essentially a bunch of mega corporations,one things all businesses have to read is the fine print. Typically the bigger the job the bigger the punishment. Attacking/defending an area seems pretty huge. If i hired you to hack null cannons,and instead you're off chasing enemies i'd fire you and hire someone who could follow directions,or i'd penalise you for breach of contract. Which is why i'm requesting this. tl;dr Bad behavior shouldn't be rewarded. I should mention on this point that you are contracted to what ever and you failed you should get nothing for being in the red line.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 208	Posted - 2013.12.31 07:56:00 - [15] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: honestly I like an idea i had a while back and posted on the forums. If you are forced into the redline and a player can not stay out of the redline for more than 60 seconds your team forfeits and you loose. The only redline punishments i agree with are when people are redline sniping whereas they are sitting in a position that i can not access and are shooting at me. Also the redline was originaly not even in the game so i dont consider it to be part of the contract. It is something CCP put into the game so that people can't MCC camp you once they have dominated the BF and captured all the objectives. The company that hires you does not give a darn how pretty things are on the BF they hired you to grab ground for them and that is all. How you do it is up to you. If the rules were so strict that the contract was only fulfilled by capturing the null cannons to destroy the MCC and win and cloning out was not acceptable then it wouldnt come up as a win when you eliminate all the clones. Since you can win by cloning out the enemy on skirms and doms then it is an acceptable way to win. Getting redlined is just an indication that you are not just outmatched but your team is severely outmatched. It stinks but it happens and it happens to pretty much all of us at some time. Your proposed punishments for killing people while they are in their redline are ridiculous. Besides people and equipment are destroyed if they are behind the redline for too long. I have lost a couple tanks myself getting stuck behind the redline (fell off a cliff once that i wasnt paying attention to chasing down a LAV ) short term I like it but read the link. I think its the best method I've read to date. as for red line sniping I think you should get no WP/ISK/SP while in the redline, but at the very least snipers and rails get nothing from kills made FROM the red line.
Ivy Zalinto Lo-Tech Solutions Ltd 231	Posted - 2013.12.31 08:09:00 - [16] - Quote There is nothing wrong with being in the red line honestly. Yes people should play the objective but I myself have gotten bored and hacked an enemy's supply depot in their redline and made it out before the timer. Redline snipers are playing their game, dont worry about them and move up with the people that are advancing. Hell the majority of matches my teammates are nowhere near me due to me being a couple hundred meters behind enemy lines sneaking around. Doesnt make the player any less useful if their playing to their strengths. At the very least the player that's in the redline is saving you 1 clone that the enemy most likely wont bother taking unless their racking up kills. Rereading these ideas most are laughable. -500k per? Really :/ Dedicated Stealth Scout. Scout instructor; Learning Coalition Scrambler Pistol dedication
Timothy Reaper WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 670	Posted - 2013.12.31 08:10:00 - [17] - Quote If everyone is on the redline who's watching the back door? All it takes is a militia light frame with militia profile dampeners and a militia uplink to sneak past the enemy and open the way for the rest of your team. Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. Mark Twain
sammus420 Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 356	Posted - 2013.12.31 09:09:00 - [18] - Quote I'll agree to some of these ideas if and only if the redlined team is punished even harsher for every kill they make while hiding in the redline, and they forfeit ALL of their ISK and SP gains for the match for being unable to escape and capture any objectives.
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 456	Posted - 2013.12.31 09:23:00 - [19] - Quote Timothy Reaper wrote: If everyone is on the redline who's watching the back door? All it takes is a militia light frame with militia profile dampeners and a militia uplink to sneak past the enemy and open the way for the rest of your team. That is something a smart player would do. There are a lot of stupid players in dust. I actually have a "stealth" fitting for this its a dragonfly scout with a militia dampener and militia drop uplink and a speed booster so i can run nice and fast.
Timothy Reaper WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 671	Posted - 2013.12.31 10:03:00 - [20] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: Timothy Reaper wrote: If everyone is on the redline who's watching the back door? All it takes is a militia light frame with militia profile dampeners and a militia uplink to sneak past the enemy and open the way for the rest of your team. That is something a smart player would do. There are a lot of stupid players in dust. I actually have a "stealth" fitting for this its a dragonfly scout with a militia dampener and militia drop uplink and a speed booster so i can run nice and fast. A lot of people want to be the hero who runs out with guns blazing and takes down an entire squad by him/herself. Come join us on the sneaky side, where the Nova Knives are drenched in blood from stabbing an unaware enemy in the back! Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. Mark Twain

sammus420 Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 357	Posted - 2013.12.31 11:16:00 - [21] - Quote Thurak1 wrote: There are a lot of stupid players in dust. I feel like this quote right here sums up a lot of the things we see day to day in Dust.
Meee One Clones Of The Damned Zero-Day 69	Posted - 2014.01.01 05:00:00 - [22] - Quote From all the responses i've read so far... "wahh let us farm noobs" "wahh let us drive them away" "wahh let us make the game MORE miserable by FORCING them to surrender" Not a mature balanced response among the lot of you. Judging from these responses i can assume none of you ever work with contracts IRL. This would END proto stomping PERMENENTLY.
Delenne Arran Ivory Hounds 59	Posted - 2014.01.02 04:41:00 - [23] - Quote It's not a matter of contracts-- even if it were, as I said, your contract is to destroy the enemy MCC. The Null cannons are used for this, whether you do it during the battle or not. You're not breaching your contract by killing people, you're a mercenary, that's literally all you're there for. Actually, a mercy kill rule wouldn't be terrible, if it were implemented properly. There is nothing worse than having to wait 10 minutes for a Domination match to end because your team has been pushed back to the redline, but aren't being killed fast enough to run down the clone count. I also disagree that this would somehow stop protostomping. At best, it would lead to winning teams allowing the enemy to take three steps out of the redline before killing them. It also wouldn't act as a particularly strong deterrent for rich players. There's no good reason for punishing the winning team. It sucks getting hopelessly pushed back into your own redline, but if your team allowed that to happen, you were almost certainly not going to win the match anyway.
emtbraincase RETR0 PR0 GAMERS INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 37	Posted - 2014.01.02 07:10:00 - [24] - Quote read OP, didn't read every post. I have 1 thing to say which applies to every option you gave (I have given and received redlining). Since you are trying to punish someone who is part of a better team, I think this is a horrible idea. P.S. Choose at least 1 of the following and your life will improve. A) Always play in a squad B) Always play in a squad with mics C) Never play Ambush even with a squad (I know you can't redline in Amb, but if Skirm/Dom/FW is giving you trouble this should SUCK) D) Fill a role for a squad/team/corp and stick to it. E) STFU/HTFU and quit getting redlined. (A-D generally eliminates this possibility) F) join a corp where you can always find A-D
Meee One Clones Of The Damned Zero-Day 72	Posted - 2014.01.02 08:20:00 - [25] - Quote So i assume based on all the rage in this thread: -players love proto stomping -players don't want to stop proto stomping -players don't care about balance as long as they get their ego stroked by stomping -players say unanimously 'screw the noobs' -players want to ruin the experience of Dust by having no penalties,in high sec CONCORD kills you if you attack someone but who cares about that,its not like the redline represents high sec,after all you won't die if you stay in too long will you? -players want MORE people to stomp like them,which is why they suggest it....similar to OP tanks (fight spam with spam) -players try to berate the validity of the subject by ridiculing the OP "you must have been redlined alot" -players want something done but they want nothing to change Yep,the tl;dr version of this whole thread right here. You're welcome.
emtbraincase RETR0 PR0 GAMERS INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 37	Posted - 2014.01.02 18:52:00 - [26] - Quote If you are upset about someone using proto against you, then get proto yourself. IIf you are truly upset about Noobs getting no time to learn the game because they are always getting redlined, then your thread should have been about expanding the Academy or making new options available to battle finder which allows a no-proto game option. It should not be about making better squads stand on an objective with their thumb up their ass, while those who are redlined can snipe at them with impunity. ( I like redline snipers, they are generally sitting ducks) But if you are, as I suspect, just upset you are constantly getting smoked by your opponent, then all my original options (A-F) are actually valid. This is what I saw when I read your thread. Sounds much more like someone not very good/old/experienced with Dust who is upset they can't hang 1-v-1 with someone rocking 30-40 Mill SP characters. Get better, get with better people, and/or request a safe haven from those you don't like....but don't disguise it by saying that you are doing it for the noobs when all you have is a bruised ego.
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 467	Posted - 2014.01.04 01:04:00 - [27] - Quote Nobody likes getting stomped. I have over 11 mill SP's and it still happens to me at times. I have proto gear to fight back with but i generalyl don't because honestly if i am getting redline proto stomped its not just me that is failing. With how cheap tanks are sometimes i will start pulling out militia tanks when getting stomped and see if i can make a push with that. Here is the thing though nobody is going to side with punishing the winning force in a battle. Should there be a better academy? Yes of course. Should there be a practice mode? Maybe it would be a good idea to have a way to play vs npc's who knows. Everyone agree's that getting redline proto stomped is not fun. Its happened to us all. The only thing more ridiculous is getting punished for winning and being able to dominate the other team. The only thing i would suggest is another spawning system to somehow let players into the battle field in a more unpredictable manner so redlining would be more difficult. That being said its not hard to make a suit or have someone go stealth and put down some drop uplinks and attack the enemy from behind.
Kim Jong Kim Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 13	Posted - 2014.01.04 01:24:00 - [28] - Quote Meee One wrote: As part of a contract the redline is placed to show where you are contractually NOT supposed to go. You endorse violating a contract. Violations should carry penalties. Clone outs are acceptable in the course of accomplishing your MAIN task. They shouldn't be actively pursued. If you can't follow a contract you shouldn't be rewarded. And as a lesson to others your punishment MUST be severe to discourage contract breaching actions. From a business stand point it would be insane NOT to penalise. What lesson would Dust be teaching it's players? "It's ok if you break a contract there will be no punishment.' Also,when you start a mission you are TOLD your objectives: -capture null cannons to destroy the enemy MCC "taking the area" is something you made up out of thin air. EDIT: If i hire you under the pretext of house repair then say 'i want you to work on the kitchen' by your logic that means you can go into another part of MY house 'kuz imma fix it' We capture all the null cannons in the match and then do what? Scratch our metallic balls and wait or the enemy to take them all back? No, we keep them contained and pinned down so they don't capture the null cannons.
Megaman Trigger Knights of Eternal Darkness League of Infamy 51	Posted - 2014.01.04 01:42:00 - [29] - Quote Meee One wrote: The objective of the modes that use redlines is: -capture null cannons -fight for/defend null cannons It is NOT: -clone your enemies While I agree that redline sniping/camping should be dealt with, I disagree that cloning out the enemy isn't a viable way to win Skirmish or Domination. It should only be done by defending the objectives, not by camping the redline. There have been quite a few matches that I've been in that have been won or lost on clones while fighting over a Null Cannon. Look out! Here comes the Megaman!


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