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CharCharOdell
1822
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Posted - 2013.12.21 05:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
It was a 3 v 4 tank battle. All tankers were extremely capable and have been tanking since forever.
It made me think about the purpose of infantry and the purpose of tanks and how the meta may balance tanks in the future.
Most of the battle was 12 infantry v 13 infantry and 3 tanks v 4 tanks.
Tanks were almost always engaging other tanks and infantry rarely saw them.
However, when tanks on the 3-tank side were caught respawning in their redline, there was a moment where 1 of the 4 opposite team's tanks with a blaster would break off from the main group and go attack our infantry. He did very well...until one of our tanks found him and 3HK'd him. then the normal order would return.
What this means is that to balance tanks v infantry, we need MORE tanks.
The function of infantry is to take points. WIthout it, it is impossible to win. However, tanks are designed to kill everything and are bloody good at it. When a tank is built to kill infantry, he gives up a lot of his ability to kill tanks (very different fittings, i assure you). Then an AT-Tank kills him very easily.
If we had more tanks, then every battle would likely end up as a 4Tv4T and 12i vs 12i. The side with the better players would still win because even if the tanks are killing everything they see, they still cant take and hold points. A tank's job is to support the infantry. Without that, it is impossible to win.
it doesn't seem fair that an infantryman or even 2 infantryman can kill a tank, and it isn't fair. it isn't supposed to be. What we have is perfect imbalance. AV weapons work to push tanks away when their hardeners come off. Without AV and tanks to defend infantry, a tank without hardeners will never leave. That is the purpose of AV and it does its job impressively well.
My only beef with the AV v Tank thing is that even prototype AV cannot kill a mlt tank. That is wrong...just wrong. MLT tanks need a nerf. Perhaps the answer is nerfing militia hardeners, or perhaps militia tank speed. Maybe nerfing ROF for mlt turrets while buffing their dmg to keep the DPS the same.
However, in doing this, we must realize that buffing AV will make dropships even more difficult. We must also realize that nerfing militia tanks will make it harder for non-tankers to kill real tankers.
In the meantime, i'd reccomend that if you are infantry, and you want to kill a tank, spend 80k and buy a sica. put a mlt railgun on it and 2 mlt damage mods. You will 2 shot gunlogis and 3-shot madrugars. Considering that, perhaps nothing must be changed. The infantry dont have to spend any SP to get a weapon fully capeable of killing the best tanks in the game and it costs less than a proto AV fit, so who is complaining? IF you're losing to other tanks in that fit, it is because of their skill as a pilot, not their fitting.
Please stop the QQ and adjust to it. Give it a couple months. It may solve itself.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
I like railguns.
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Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
963
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Posted - 2013.12.21 05:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
The solution to the current tank issues is not that there needs to be more tanks. Tanks as they are are bad for both infantry and vehicle users alike. For infantry, there exists enemies that outclass them in every way except that they can hack. For vehicle users, tanks are by far the most efficient and versatile vehicle to use. They may not have the speed of LAVs or the flight capability of drop ships, but they have the eHP and power to make it up several times over. Then why should anyone use a different vehicle? When they release MAVs, why should you use one? A tank will out class it in every way except for its logistic capabilities (which won't matter when the tank can easily destroy the MAV).
Krom Ganesh wrote:Ideally, I would like for the V vs V and V vs I balance to be like this:
Heavy vehicles should be very effective against all forms of vehicles Heavy vehicles shouldn't be very effective against infantry - As it is meant to be the heavy hitting vehicle, the tank should absolutely wreck other vehicles... but this should come at the cost of effectiveness vs infantry. One way to reinforce this is to make all tank weapons have little to no splash radius.
Light AV should be effective against light and medium vehicles * Light AV can also either be very effective against light and medium vehicles or also be effective against infantry (not both) Light AV shouldn't be very effective against heavy vehicles (Light AV in large groups (4+) should still be able to combat heavy vehicles with good coordination) - The greatest asset of light AV should be its versatility. Weapons like the PLC can be effective methods of fighting infantry (or they would be if CCP got around to buffing them...). However, weapons like the Swarm Launcher cannot be used against infantry and thus should be even more effective against light and medium vehicles though not through damage. E.G. The swarm should have a large range of attack and the missiles need to be fairly fast in exchange for not having the ability to fight infantry (they also need decreased ability to turn so vehicles have an effective means of countering them).
Heavy AV should be very effective against all vehicles Heavy AV shouldn't be very effective against infantry - Same as heavy vehicles, heavy AV should give up its ability to effectively fight infantry for the ability to effectively fight all vehicles.
Medium and light vehicles should be effective at fighting infantry and other medium/light vehicles Light vehicles should have less power and defense but have great speed and handling Medium vehicles should good power and defense (not tank levels) but be slower (again, not tank levels) (Same as light AV, medium and light vehicles in groups should be able to take on heavy vehicles) - These are the vehicles that pilots should look towards to fight infantry (along with their non-combat roles like troop transport)
I feel these guidelines would create a V/AV dynamic that would result in more enjoyable gameplay and give a clear idea of how to balance new vehicles.
!
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Cosgar
ParagonX
8939
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Posted - 2013.12.21 05:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think tanks need a hard counter if sorts like LAVs that can tackle and use EWAR debuffs. Militia tanks are fine as is aside from the lack of anti-shield AV and racial AV weapons. So far it looks like AV was scaled down to us only having standard vehicles. Something that would've stung less if they did it back in 1.0.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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DJINN Marauder
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
3491
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Posted - 2013.12.21 05:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think that's more of the problem that the Railgun is back to being OP..
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Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà
Forum Warrior LV. 3 | Warframe is awesome! | PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
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Borne Velvalor
Endless Hatred
1105
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Posted - 2013.12.21 05:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
How do you ensure that the right numbers of tankers and infantry get put on each side in pubs so that they balance out? 2 MLT HAVs versus 5 STD HAVs isn't fair and is what I see a lot. It's like when you get put into a 12v5 by Scotty and then when the 5 are dead, the 12 can enter another match making it 28vs16. That's basically how it is. Enemy deploys 2 HAVs versus 5 HAVs, you pop them, now you're the only one with HAVs.
Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn.
Panda.
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Spectre-M
The Generals General Tso's Alliance
140
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Posted - 2013.12.21 06:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
I'm already saving sp for dam mods and rails. Tankers wanted tanks to be the counter, so I'm going to do it right.
Adapt or die.
Amarr Factional Warfare Loyalist
Minnmatar in Amarr Armor
I am a Wolf in Sheeps Clothing
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Darken-Sol
BIG BAD W0LVES
955
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Posted - 2013.12.21 06:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
If militia is OP, every tank that is more powerful is OP too.
enjoy your time at the top. Crying is the most OP of all.
Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
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LeGoose
SAM-MIK
114
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Posted - 2013.12.21 06:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
As a pure infantry player with no skills into vehicles at all, I do not feel tanks are op. I think tank spam is a bit of a problem but the tanks themselves are not truly op now with the small speed Nerf that was needed. If I know there is a tank on the field I will either run away, sneek up behind it and plant my explosives, or bring out my proto swarms to at the very least deter it from coming my direction. It really isn't that difficult to push a tank off of an objective with just a single person. Just don't be dumb and run in front of its turret. |
ladwar
Death by Disassociation Zero-Day
1930
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Posted - 2013.12.21 06:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Borne Velvalor wrote:How do you ensure that the right numbers of tankers and infantry get put on each side in pubs so that they balance out? 2 MLT HAVs versus 5 STD HAVs isn't fair and is what I see a lot. It's like when you get put into a 12v5 by Scotty and then when the 5 are dead, the 12 can enter another match making it 28vs16. That's basically how it is. Enemy deploys 2 HAVs versus 5 HAVs, you pop them, now you're the only one with HAVs. in a 1 vs 4 tank i pushed the tanks off in a dom from controlling the point and they where using super expensive fits. yea someone dropped a tank but he died because he charged right into the 4 of them and then a later a team mate called in a tank and died the same way. so on our side there at most was 2 tanks and 4 on theirs but it was mostly only my tank on the field. yea i popped their fits with a rail tanks and they hated me for doing so since they had to deal with me. and guess what we won because we had more and better infantry then they did not because we had more tanks.
Level 2 Forum Warrior, retired vet.
I shall smite Thy Trolls with numbers and truth
not looking for a corp, don't ask.
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DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
9265
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Posted - 2013.12.21 06:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nerf red line rail guns to hell and never ever bring them back
Vids / O7
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CharCharOdell
1824
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Posted - 2013.12.21 07:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Nerf red line rail guns to hell and never ever bring them back
Maybe you should get a railgun and quit QQing...they cost 0SP and like 24k isk.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
I like railguns.
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Stinker Butt
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
215
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Posted - 2013.12.21 07:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote: it doesn't seem fair that an infantryman or even 2 infantryman can kill a tank, and it isn't fair. it isn't supposed to be. What we have is perfect imbalance.
that's hilarious. I assume it's totally fair that the tank can clean house and wipe out all of the infantryman, correct?
How about you make it so that it's impossible for tanks to kill infantry? then we have balance.
Please give tanks some balance
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Lynn Beck
Granite Mercenary Division Top Men.
387
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Posted - 2013.12.21 08:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
Stinker Butt wrote:CharCharOdell wrote: it doesn't seem fair that an infantryman or even 2 infantryman can kill a tank, and it isn't fair. it isn't supposed to be. What we have is perfect imbalance.
that's hilarious. I assume it's totally fair that the tank can clean house and wipe out all of the infantryman, correct? How about you make it so that it's impossible for tanks to kill infantry? then we have balance. No, then you have a lack of purpose for a vehicle. Why call in a tank? To kill their tank, and WHY would they call a tank in to begin with?! Tanks need to scare the living hell out of infntry, and tanks need to be 'deterrable' by light AV, while hAV and tanks are the definitive destruction methods.
What needs to happen is maps with more cover, and definitive chokepoints for I v V.
Under 28db
Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14)
I have a God, His name is Dakka.
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Beld Errmon
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1151
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Posted - 2013.12.21 08:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tanks counter tanks, working as intended, infantry can support against tanks but rarely outright solo them.
As infantry only players i can understand why ppl get ****** about tanks, but you ppl were getting that way when they were easy to kill, you need to realise that just like a protostomping squad of inf can counter another on the battlefield, the only sure way to stop a tanker ripping your team up is another tanker.
Problem is I don't think the average whine bag on this forum has the intelligence to see the awesome tanking battles going on outside of the null cannon rooms, that tanker that is nailing your team probably killed all 4 of your tankers before he got a chance to kill you. |
ReGnYuM
Imperfects
1575
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Posted - 2013.12.21 08:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
I agree for the most part with the OP
However, what we don't see in PC is AV and players wasting Millions of SP on role that does not work, does not sit well with me
Official Imperfect Title: Supreme Leader of the Endless Sunset
I learned how to make Jewelry out of Matari Flesh
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The Furtive Pygmy
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
114
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Posted - 2013.12.21 08:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
Calm down OP, we were only fighting STB |
8213
BIG BAD W0LVES
1161
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Posted - 2013.12.21 08:39:00 -
[17] - Quote
I understand where you are coming from. I do believe this game is supposed to be fought with vehicles as the center key. Dropships win games because they take the infantry right into the objective. Tanks escort and protect the infantry. LAVs zip you around the ground where ever you need to go.
The people who hate the vehicles are the ones that are b*tching because it takes to long to run to the objective. They don't realize we have LAVs and DSes for a reason.
HOWEVER, vehicles should be limited, or else it becomes nothing but vehicles on vehicles. I believe a limit of 6 total vehicles(HAVs, LAVs, & DSes) per side should be the limit. This is not World of Tanks afterall. 6 for vehicles for a 16 person team seems more than fair.
And the reason the HAVs were engaging each other and leaving infantry alone was because you guys "tangled your antlers". Neither one of you could destroy enough enemy vehicles fast enough to neutralize one another. |
Stinker Butt
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
217
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Posted - 2013.12.21 08:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Well, who wouldn't want to be the most OP on the map? The most firepower, the highest defense, the speed to flee at the first sign of danger? that's what everyone wants. It makes sense.
Yeah, you're right. that's balance, but only in a tankers tiny little brain.
What will you do when everyone else quits? You'll be playing the same people, every match. no more variety. Just tanks.
Enjoy it while it lasts.
Please give tanks some balance
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Rowdy Railgunner
Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance
290
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Posted - 2013.12.21 08:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
I read half your post and I liked it, then I read the rest and unliked it. Tanks are HAVs... 1 proto swarm or Proto AFG should not be able to kill it solo when the driver is paying attention. MLT or not. If you are out numbered on tanks, your fault, because obviously you don't need skills in tank anymore to be productive on the battlefield. |
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