DUST Search - Discussion on balancing red line rail tanks

Pvt Numnutz wrote:

Heathen Bastard wrote:

I DON'T LIKE YOUR PLAYSTYLE! SO I WANT IT INVALIDATED!

You out past 300 meters? then I can't shoot, or even see you in most cases. sorry that I'm not willing to gung-ho it into melee with a long rifle. it's not made for that, it's made for sitting on a mountain, and killing things very, very quickly.

now you're saying that the job it was made for is wrong, and that it shouldn't be allowed to perform that job. okay fine. your dropship now cannot fly, Have fun.

Not what I was saying bro.
There are plenty of locations on the map that aren't in the redline where you can still engage at range. The only difference is that your prey can actually fight back. Or what are you scared of a fight? Because I'm all about good fights and having fun, and RLRTs don't provide fun or interesting fights.
I don't think you read my OP either, as I said its a rail tanks job to destroy vehicles and installations. I'm not saying the tank is wrong, the impossibility of fighting it in the redline is what's wrong. I am okay being killed by a rail tank if I can at least fight back, I have been killed by a few, they risked their asset and did their job. Why should I have to risk my dropship when you don't risk your tank?

If you hear the words "WORTH IT!" look about, something hilarious just happened.

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Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries 446	Posted - 2013.12.20 06:12:00 - [1] - Quote Red Line Rail Tanks (RLRT) are a serious problem to dropships. Not because they can shoot them out of the sky easily, because they can do so from a no risk position. The problem does is not with rail tanks, but with their ability to shoot from the red line. To be clear, I am not talking about nerfing the rail tank, I am suggesting we change how vehicles operate in friendly red lines. To dropships the rail tank is the predator, it has the ability to two shot a well fit python and has enough tank to easily make it back to the red line. Every pilot must be ready to encounter a rail tank, tough if the pilot cannot see the tank and cannot engage the tank then there is an imbalance. the problem with RLRT's can be broken down into some key points, RLRT's have the element of surprise (rendering) Have a much larger FOV and firing arch Can cover most of the map from the red line are in a position unassailable by dropships (and most forms of AV aside from another rail tank) RLRT"s have a huge element of surprise on dropships, the first shot usually cripples them and the second is the kill shot. If a pilot does not immediately spot a RLRT when its called in they are in essence sitting ducks. The rail tank can wait un apposed and care free for the pilot to come in for a landing, stop for a moment, hardeners down etc. While this could be replicated with the tank not being in the red line the tank would have to risk his asset for the kill. Being far back in the red, or on a mountain in the red gives the RLRT a better view over the battlefield. It increases the height at which he can aim, and since they have more than enough range to reach across most of the map dropships loose a safe zone to retreat from the enormous amount of damage they can spit out. There is no fall off for large rail turrets. Why should a RLRT move out of the red if he can have a no risk position to fire from? I am not saying fall off should be introduced, just stating that rail tanks don't even have to move out of the red to cover 90% of the map. If a RLRT sits just out of the red line I usually try to make a pass at him. The typical response I get is hardener flash and then off they go deep in the red. 18 seconds is not enough time to kill a tank, especially when they can stop on a dime and throw off your aim. Swarms range has been reduced so they cannot sit 300m off the red and fire at it, and forge guns charge time is too long to kill it before it retreats too far into the red. The only viable counter is a better tanker with a rail tank on your side, or maybe a jihad lav with a few swarmers inside if you have the isk and man power (most dropship pilots don't have the isk) To be fair the rail tank should not be tampered with. It was designed to kill other vehicles at range with incredible alpha. To say "nerf rail tanks so dropships don't get two shotted" would hurt the roll of the tank, limiting its anti vehicle/installation capabilities. I'm fine with being killed by a rail tank, so long as I have the opportunity to fight back. If I'm risking my vehicle to get kills and do my job, so should he. My proposal: The friendly red line and 20-30m (open to change) from the red line is classified as a "Safe Zone" When a vehicle attempts to fire its weapons in the Safe Zone a message is displayed saying something along the lines of "Cannot operate weapon in Safe Zone." This also applies to dropships and lav's. (although lets be honest the only vehicle that fires from the red are RLRT) This would change things up, If a tank runs to the red line then they are going to their safe zone and disengaging the enemy. If you want to be safe you have to disengage, much like when a dropship flies to MCC height they are safe however they can no longer engage the enemy. (again only RLRT can engage from safety) The counter argument to this is: What if the team is being red lined? This would gimp the teams ability to break out with tanks. Indeed that is true, my solution to this would be to have a Contested state to the Safe Zone. When 'x' enemies are present within the 20-30m (or further) area to the Safe Zone it becomes Contested allowing tanks to fire from the Contested Safe zone. When the enemies are pushed back the zone becomes safe again and tanks lose the ability to fire from the red line. This should be the only time a powerful weapon such as the Large Rail gun should be able to fire from the redline. Lets have a good discussion on this proposal, please don't spin this off into a tank thread ^ this is what we are discussing. This is a problem that has caused much rage over my dropship career (closed beta) and I would really like to get a good solution that people can agree on. Thank you for reading.
Sam Tektzby Better Hide R Die 42	Posted - 2013.12.20 06:19:00 - [2] - Quote this all redlining, what about something like virtual weapons lock, if you are "calm red field"?! Just idea. Support - Tactician/Medic
Jetti Daxcide GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 33	Posted - 2013.12.20 06:22:00 - [3] - Quote well from what i've seen rail tanks are the only thing that can take out a dropship so stop whining and use an afterburner xXLOGIBRO4LYFEXx
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries 446	Posted - 2013.12.20 06:24:00 - [4] - Quote Sam Tektzby wrote: this all redlining, what about something like virtual weapons lock, if you are "calm red field"?! Just idea. I did suggest in the OP that when in your 'Safe Zone' or Red line you cannot fire your vehicles weapons, or did you mean something else?
Flix Keptick Red Star. EoN. 1696	Posted - 2013.12.20 06:26:00 - [5] - Quote I'm sorry to all the dropship pilots I shot down today :'( However, know that I was not in my redline. Going to stay out of AV/V debates, better for my sanity. GÿåTank driverGÿå
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 934	Posted - 2013.12.20 06:27:00 - [6] - Quote I think every one agrees the guys are pussies Watch my back does not mean look at my spine.
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries 446	Posted - 2013.12.20 06:27:00 - [7] - Quote Jetti Daxcide wrote: well from what i've seen rail tanks are the only thing that can take out a dropship so stop whining and use an afterburner I assure you they are not the only weapon that can kill a dropship. I don't want to take away any of their killing power ( or did you even read my OP?) because that's what they are designed to do. They shouldn't be able to kill a substantial investment without being able to be engaged. thanks for your deep and constructive post though
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries 447	Posted - 2013.12.20 06:33:00 - [8] - Quote Flix Keptick wrote: I'm sorry to all the dropship pilots I shot down today :'(. However, know that I was not in my redline. Everything that shoots from the redline is a problem btw. Especially those ***** OVERLY ACCURATE PIECES OF ** RAIL INSTALATIONS. No need to apologize if you weren't in your red line. You made a risk and did your job which means your a lot better than those that would sit care free and be another rail turret in the red. I agree that having free RLRT in the red line is stupid and their accuracy is a joke. I'm glad its not just dropship pilots that feel the pain on those.
jerrmy12 kahoalii The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 154	Posted - 2013.12.20 06:50:00 - [9] - Quote Jetti Daxcide wrote: well from what i've seen rail tanks are the only thing that can take out a dropship so stop whining and use an afterburner the only dropship that survives 2 shots is a incubus, while pythons cant fit it recuruit link 5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
jerrmy12 kahoalii The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 154	Posted - 2013.12.20 06:51:00 - [10] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Flix Keptick wrote: I'm sorry to all the dropship pilots I shot down today :'(. However, know that I was not in my redline. Everything that shoots from the redline is a problem btw. Especially those ***** OVERLY ACCURATE PIECES OF ** RAIL INSTALATIONS. No need to apologize if you weren't in your red line. You made a risk and did your job which means your a lot better than those that would sit care free and be another rail turret in the red. I agree that having free RLRT in the red line is stupid and their accuracy is a joke. I'm glad its not just dropship pilots that feel the pain on those. if railguns get their 1.6 fire rate i'll be fine recuruit link 5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit

Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries 447	Posted - 2013.12.20 06:55:00 - [11] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Flix Keptick wrote: I'm sorry to all the dropship pilots I shot down today :'(. However, know that I was not in my redline. Everything that shoots from the redline is a problem btw. Especially those ***** OVERLY ACCURATE PIECES OF ** RAIL INSTALATIONS. No need to apologize if you weren't in your red line. You made a risk and did your job which means your a lot better than those that would sit care free and be another rail turret in the red. I agree that having free RLRT in the red line is stupid and their accuracy is a joke. I'm glad its not just dropship pilots that feel the pain on those. if railguns get their 1.6 fire rate i'll be fine that would certainly treat the symptom. I would be able to recall half of the pythons I lose to RLRTs. Though I plan on putting another 6.5 mil sp into dropships, for all that to be useless just because I can't fight the predator seems like an awful waste. I wouldn't even volunteer my services for PC.....
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries 448	Posted - 2013.12.20 08:54:00 - [12] - Quote Bump for discussion
dogmanpig black market bank 82	Posted - 2013.12.20 09:07:00 - [13] - Quote meh... redzone had a reason to be made... it was a band aid which they still haven't fixed the root cause. then the redline is gonna stay basically the same. fix that issue by bring it back up and forcing ccp to rework the spawn and spawn protection leave the friendly redzones useless. the out of bounds are needed due to space limits so are not going away. You hate me, I hate you. Lets keep it that way. Level 8 1/10 Forum alt. "Its worth half a penny and a reach around"
Argetlam Thorson Capital Acquisitions LLC Public Disorder. 5	Posted - 2013.12.20 09:09:00 - [14] - Quote Jetti Daxcide wrote: well from what i've seen rail tanks are the only thing that can take out a dropship so stop whining and use an afterburner Except for the fact that a RLRT can knock out my dropship before I have a chance to get in it...and all from their red line
ladwar Death by Disassociation Zero-Day 1926	Posted - 2013.12.20 09:11:00 - [15] - Quote Argetlam Thorson wrote: Jetti Daxcide wrote: well from what i've seen rail tanks are the only thing that can take out a dropship so stop whining and use an afterburner Except for the fact that a RLRT can knock out my dropship before I have a chance to get in it...and all from their red line spawn further away.... most maps its 500m to center from red zones... Level 2 Forum Warrior, retired vet. I shall smite Thy Trolls with numbers and truth not looking for a corp, don't ask.
Aero Yassavi Scions of Athra 4193	Posted - 2013.12.20 09:14:00 - [16] - Quote An even better solution would be to stop designing maps that have redlines that overlook the whole darn battefield. Spine Crescent is the absolute worst with this. And of course I believe redline rail turrets are a terrible problem, but even with you're proposed solution they would just sit at the edge of the redline and then as soon as someone tries to engage them they'll activate hardeners and speed deeply back into the redline. So again, at least in my eyes, the best solution is better map design. Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
dogmanpig black market bank 82	Posted - 2013.12.20 09:21:00 - [17] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: An even better solution would be to stop designing maps that have redlines that overlook the whole darn battefield. Spine Crescent is the absolute worst with this. And of course I believe redline rail turrets are a terrible problem, but even with you're proposed solution they would just sit at the edge of the redline and then as soon as someone tries to engage them they'll activate hardeners and speed deeply back into the redline. So again, at least in my eyes, the best solution is better map design. or removal of friendly redzones. it'll be a very long while till they get map design "correct". call it the 10 year project, starting now. so i'll cya in 10 years? You hate me, I hate you. Lets keep it that way. Level 8 1/10 Forum alt. "Its worth half a penny and a reach around"
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries 451	Posted - 2013.12.20 11:20:00 - [18] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: An even better solution would be to stop designing maps that have redlines that overlook the whole darn battefield. Spine Crescent is the absolute worst with this. And of course I believe redline rail turrets are a terrible problem, but even with you're proposed solution they would just sit at the edge of the redline and then as soon as someone tries to engage them they'll activate hardeners and speed deeply back into the redline. So again, at least in my eyes, the best solution is better map design. Yes they probably would just sit on the dge and go back and forth. However I think that your suggestion of map design could merge with the 20-30m extension of this safe zone. All the spots that would cause problems like edges of cliffs, mountain peaks etc could be placed in the safe zone to force RLRT to move to better positions further out than right next to the redline. I do agree that redlines cater to rail tankers, would be nice if they didn't have such a broad view of the battlefields.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2001	Posted - 2013.12.20 13:13:00 - [19] - Quote Does this also happen to snipers in the red zone? Intelligence is OP
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 319	Posted - 2013.12.20 13:19:00 - [20] - Quote You know, often times I back up to the redline just so I can SEE the dropship when they are way up there! And then I don't see them at all. You know, when you are in the redline, rendering should be **** poor like it was pre 1.7. They can still shoot, but your dropship won't render until he moves from the redline. Nuff Said

Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries 455	Posted - 2013.12.21 00:40:00 - [21] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: You know, often times I back up to the redline just so I can SEE the dropship when they are way up there! And then I don't see them at all. You know, when you are in the redline, rendering should be **** poor like it was pre 1.7. They can still shoot, but your dropship won't render until he moves from the redline. Yes dropships can go very high up. However that is because they have chosen to disengage. A dropship at that height cannot see anything on the ground, blues, reds, installations, vehicles, nothing. Not rendering dropships sounds like a bad idea, we could just give them cloak generators but that idea is even worse. Vehicles just shouldn't be able to fire from the redline.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 348	Posted - 2013.12.21 00:41:00 - [22] - Quote Suppose we only allowed the rail turrets to look up at a 20 degree angle?
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries 455	Posted - 2013.12.21 00:45:00 - [23] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Suppose we only allowed the rail turrets to look up at a 20 degree angle? Think rail tanks should be able to engage a dropship on a fair fight, however the fight isn't fair when I can't get above them or even near them to fight them. When I spot a RLRT I usually have to wait as high as rendering will allow and wait for them to get brave enough to come onto the field. Most of the time that never happens.
Aizen Intiki Hell's Gate Inc 591	Posted - 2013.12.21 00:50:00 - [24] - Quote Make it to where you can't do damage inside of the redline. Fixed "Hello, world!" lol, sounds like something a whore lover would say Alt of the great Godin I like chocolate ^___^
Heathen Bastard The Bastard Brigade 783	Posted - 2013.12.21 00:56:00 - [25] - Quote I DON'T LIKE YOUR PLAYSTYLE! SO I WANT IT INVALIDATED! You out past 300 meters? then I can't shoot, or even see you in most cases. sorry that I'm not willing to gung-ho it into melee with a long rifle. it's not made for that, it's made for sitting on a mountain, and killing things very, very quickly. now you're saying that the job it was made for is wrong, and that it shouldn't be allowed to perform that job. okay fine. your dropship now cannot fly, Have fun. If you hear the words "WORTH IT!" look about, something hilarious just happened.
Aizen Intiki Hell's Gate Inc 592	Posted - 2013.12.21 01:00:00 - [26] - Quote Heathen Bastard wrote: I DON'T LIKE YOUR PLAYSTYLE! SO I WANT IT INVALIDATED! You out past 300 meters? then I can't shoot, or even see you in most cases. sorry that I'm not willing to gung-ho it into melee with a long rifle. it's not made for that, it's made for sitting on a mountain, and killing things very, very quickly. now you're saying that the job it was made for is wrong, and that it shouldn't be allowed to perform that job. okay fine. your dropship now cannot fly, Have fun. That's fine. If you want to sit on a mountain, cool. But if I can't kill you no matter what, even if I had the skill to drive up that damn mountain (in in these poor cases, fly), then you bloody well shouldn't. Quiet. "Hello, world!" lol, sounds like something a whore lover would say Alt of the great Godin I like chocolate ^___^
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries 457	Posted - 2013.12.21 01:04:00 - [27] - Quote Heathen Bastard wrote: I DON'T LIKE YOUR PLAYSTYLE! SO I WANT IT INVALIDATED! You out past 300 meters? then I can't shoot, or even see you in most cases. sorry that I'm not willing to gung-ho it into melee with a long rifle. it's not made for that, it's made for sitting on a mountain, and killing things very, very quickly. now you're saying that the job it was made for is wrong, and that it shouldn't be allowed to perform that job. okay fine. your dropship now cannot fly, Have fun. Not what I was saying bro. There are plenty of locations on the map that aren't in the redline where you can still engage at range. The only difference is that your prey can actually fight back. Or what are you scared of a fight? Because I'm all about good fights and having fun, and RLRTs don't provide fun or interesting fights. I don't think you read my OP either, as I said its a rail tanks job to destroy vehicles and installations. I'm not saying the tank is wrong, the impossibility of fighting it in the redline is what's wrong. I am okay being killed by a rail tank if I can at least fight back, I have been killed by a few, they risked their asset and did their job. Why should I have to risk my dropship when you don't risk your tank?
Soldiersaint Deepspace Digital 630	Posted - 2013.12.21 01:10:00 - [28] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: I think every one agrees the guys are pussies And your an idiot. This stuff isnt real so stop taking it so seriously.
Xender17 Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 965	Posted - 2013.12.21 01:18:00 - [29] - Quote I could hardly put a dent in a ds when it had its actives though? Prt SL, SCR, SR . ADV FGs, MDs, LaZor, KNs. Gunnlogi, Falchion, Python, Caldari LDS. (+require) Prt L. Am, Adv HVY, LGS
Heathen Bastard The Bastard Brigade 783	Posted - 2013.12.21 01:25:00 - [30] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Heathen Bastard wrote: I DON'T LIKE YOUR PLAYSTYLE! SO I WANT IT INVALIDATED! You out past 300 meters? then I can't shoot, or even see you in most cases. sorry that I'm not willing to gung-ho it into melee with a long rifle. it's not made for that, it's made for sitting on a mountain, and killing things very, very quickly. now you're saying that the job it was made for is wrong, and that it shouldn't be allowed to perform that job. okay fine. your dropship now cannot fly, Have fun. Not what I was saying bro. There are plenty of locations on the map that aren't in the redline where you can still engage at range. The only difference is that your prey can actually fight back. Or what are you scared of a fight? Because I'm all about good fights and having fun, and RLRTs don't provide fun or interesting fights. I don't think you read my OP either, as I said its a rail tanks job to destroy vehicles and installations. I'm not saying the tank is wrong, the impossibility of fighting it in the redline is what's wrong. I am okay being killed by a rail tank if I can at least fight back, I have been killed by a few, they risked their asset and did their job. Why should I have to risk my dropship when you don't risk your tank? Considering I kill redline railtanks with some frequency they are rather at risk. its a lessened risk, but still a risk none the less. My main gun is the XT-201 heavy missile turret. if I get that into position, it's even worse than a rail tank for you, know why? highest up angling in the game, and the bastard acts like a flak cannon, and they toss you all over the map. I use the railtank when I'm bored and want to see chunks of MLT tank scrubs go flying with every shot, the fact that you end up in my sights is just bad luck. Hell I'm not a great shot with the thing, so dropships are a pretty low priority unless you're trying to hotdrop onto my friends or your door gunners are giving them the business. Just so you know, an assault dropship is actually my greatest fear. mostly because if they get into position, I CAN'T shoot back. So maybe you're just a terrible pilot. burn to the ceiling, go over them, drop in behind them since your aerial redline is about 2-3x the size of the infantry/ground vehicle redline and pump some missiles/railshots into their tailpipe. If you hear the words "WORTH IT!" look about, something hilarious just happened.



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