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Artificer Ghost
Bojo's School of the Trades
700
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 03:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
Alright. This is a good one, so pull up your chairs, get some popcorn, and listen. First, though, I'd like this to be a constructive and informative discussion. If you need to, make it look like you're trying to hard. If you have a strong opinion, try to express it as I am now: Calmly. I want no "CAPS LOL" in here, or "0mg gost u suk kil urself" either. If you're going to post, please at least try to make it readable. :(
Now that that's out of the way: Time To Kill (TTK), is, as we all know, at an all time low. Since Uprising 1.2 (Correct me if I'm wrong), minor (And major) fixes to the game have decreased the amount of time it takes to kill someone, to the point where it's near nothing. Even when stacking as much HP as I can, it takes me less than 10 seconds to kill or be killed. That's not a lot of time, compared to what we were at in Chromosome.
[CCP Remnant=quote]Combat should be fun. Long TTK is not fun if itGÇÖs the result of loose controls, poor aim assists or dance-strafing/bunny-hopping combat GÇô all problems that DUST has suffered from in the past. [/quote]Valid statement. It's a truth that, in Chromosome, the hit detection, bunny hopping, and controls were a large part of the issue. HOWEVER, we've mostly sorted that out, with the following changes: -Jumping two times in a row (Without at least a couple seconds of pause) causes the stamina bar to drain more in the second jump, reducing it to nothing in 3 jumps. -Aim Assist and Controls have been completely re-vamped since Uprising 1.2 -Hit Detection is steadily improving, becoming infinitely better than Chromosome
Of course, with these changes (Especially with Aim Assist and Hit Detection changes), some playstyles and classes have been completely wiped out of the game. Running a Speed-Tanking scout is no longer valid, unless you have a year+ of experience with the suit.
I personally think, that the first thing to be looked at, is Damage Mods. Right now, they provide too much of a bonus, let's face it. In my opinion, they should provide a MINIMAL bonus. Enough to give you an advantage, but not enough to make you the clear-cut winner. My proposal: 1-2%, or anything in between (1.50% for example). Not much, I know, but note that the small amount of extra damage will be adding up with each shot. Soon, with a weapon like the A-CBR, in about 42 shots, you've done quite a bit of extra damage. With single-shot weapons, it'll still be viable, because normally the single-shot weapons deal INSANE amounts of damage per shot anyways, making the damage bonus even bigger.
STD/MLT Damage Mod: 1% // ADV: 2% // PRO: 3%. Because as someone who used to run ONLY MLT damage mods, 3% damage increase is good no matter what weapon you're using.
And remember: The job here isn't to balance damage mods, so brick tanking can also be 100% viable. The job is to increase TTK. Less damage = More TTK. Don't nerf weapons just yet, nerf modules. Except HP mods. Because those are important in TTK. :P
~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Cosgar
ParagonX
8706
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 03:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
The problem isn't the damage mods. Average weapon DPS exceeds average dropsuit base HP. There's a little more to the equation like the proficiency skill, guns not having enough kick/dispersion, underpowered modules and other stuff, but the core issue is that the game has been balanced around bad hit detection. Hit detection got fixed and all the little fixes that were implemented to compensate need to be rescinded.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Artificer Ghost
Bojo's School of the Trades
700
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 03:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
That's actually correct as well. I still believe that Damage Mods needs to be nerfed a bit (Noting that I stack Enhanced on almost all of my suits #GallenteYOLO), but some of the other things definitely do need to be fixed. Dispersion is n issue for guns like the AR (Supposed to be not completely point-accurate, however with 1.7, I can't tell the difference between it and my SCP. Except my SCP is less accurate), and recoil is definitely an issue.
Maybe they should tune up both of those on all rifles? With the exception of the Rail Rifle (Although I can't say, because I only have basic), recoil is never an issue for me. But for some reason, the RR bounces around all over the place...
Increasing recoil on all rifles, will teach newbies to burst-fire at longer ranges. Something we ALL should be doing (Because it's common FPS knowledge). And I'm not sure if they have this already, but on some (If not all) rifles, they need to INCREASE dispersion with prolonged fire.
Also, I made an alt not to long ago, tried out MLT ARs. I don't notice much spread while in ADS, even at med-range.
~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Vin Mora
Sanguis Defense Syndicate
261
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 03:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:The problem isn't the damage mods. Average weapon DPS exceeds average dropsuit base HP. There's a little more to the equation like the proficiency skill, guns not having enough kick/dispersion, underpowered modules and other stuff, but the core issue is that the game has been balanced around bad hit detection. Hit detection got fixed and all the little fixes that were implemented to compensate need to be rescinded. Removing Sharpshooter skills and change the effect of Proficiency skills to do something different, look at the Shotgun Proficiency, is a great place to start.
Sanguis Defense Syndicate: Recruitment now open for players of all skill levels
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Artificer Ghost
Bojo's School of the Trades
700
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 03:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Shotgun Proficiency still increases damage done per shot. It's not in the same way (Because 2% damage bonus PER PELLET would be OP), but if you reduce spread, it increases the chance of hitting the target with more pellets, causing more damage. But yea. Proficiency can have many meanings.
~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Cosgar
ParagonX
8708
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 03:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vin Mora wrote:Cosgar wrote:The problem isn't the damage mods. Average weapon DPS exceeds average dropsuit base HP. There's a little more to the equation like the proficiency skill, guns not having enough kick/dispersion, underpowered modules and other stuff, but the core issue is that the game has been balanced around bad hit detection. Hit detection got fixed and all the little fixes that were implemented to compensate need to be rescinded. Removing Sharpshooter skills and change the effect of Proficiency skills to do something different, look at the Shotgun Proficiency, is a great place to start. Exactly. Scope zoom, CPU reduction, less initial sway, ADS speed, blast radius... all these could be proficiency skill options without simply adding raw DPS.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Negris Albedo
Nuevo Atlas Corporation
37
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
You're kidding, right? Only 1-3% Damage Modifiers? That's... there's no logic in that! Imagine if tanking modules were nerfed so that they were only 30% as effective as they are now. That would be simply outrageous!
And no, damage modifiers aren't the problem here, they just exemplify the problem. |
Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
739
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ghost, my friend, you seem to be mistaken about some things.
Damage Modifiers are just that. Modifiers. They aren't the problem, they just exemplify the problem. 10% increased damage? That's a nice boost, but you'll have to sacrifice a module slot that could be used to give +66 Shields, which is approximately 20% increased HP for a medium-frame dropsuit. If you replace the Complex Damage Modifier's +10% with a +3% it will become totally worthless.
See? 10% versus 20%. The tanking module is superior from a statistical perspective. So clearly, the problem lies elsewhere, primarily with the fact that weapon DPS is ridiculously high when compared to dropsuit HP.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Dunce Masterson
Savage Bullet
5
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
you could also look at rebuilding the dropsuits to mirror that of the eve frigates with some slight mid and low slot adjustment they have logistics combat/assault light/scout types just half the shield and armor values this would give all the dropsuits more hp increasing the TTK
Amarr Drop suit skill bonus per level: 5% reduction to laser weapon PG/CPU per level Low Slots 4 Med Slots 2 = highs in dust 514 High Slots 4 weapons and equipment Shield Capacity 175 HP Armor Hitpoints 250 HP
Executioner Amarr Drop suit (light)scout) Amarr Drop suit skill bonus per level: 5% reduction to laser weapon PG/CPU per level Low Slots 3 Med Slots 3 = highs in dust 514 High Slots 4 weapons and equipment Shield Capacity 125 HP Armor Hitpoints 225 HP
Inquisitor Amarr Drop suit (medium)logistics) Amarr Drop suit skill bonus per level: 10% bonus to Remote Armor Repair equipment repair amount Low Slots 4 Med Slots 2 = highs in dust 514 High Slots 3 weapons and equipment(for the logistics its going to need more) Shield Capacity 113 HP Armor Hitpoints 250 HP
these shield and armor values could be after the shield and armor skills are at level 5 |
Artificer Ghost
Bojo's School of the Trades
701
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Dunce, I thought med-slots were Equipment? Based on the symbols that showed when I was fitting my ship, it looked like mid-slots were equipment, what with the Warp Distruptors, and Micro warp-drives, Afterburners and whatnot.
Either way, I see that Damage Mods aren't the problem, and I know the weapons are, but nerfing damage mods a little bit would still be a step in the right direction. Maybe my proposition was a bit much? What's your guy's suggestions for numbers? Because from what Knapse is telling me, the HP modules, on paper, are better than Damage Mods. However, in-game, I wont even bother fitting a Complex Shield Extender, even if it brings my eHP over that of a heavy, because if I fit a Damage Mod instead, I'll out-DPS a Proto-Heavy, even in CQC.
2% // 5% // 8%?
~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
742
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
Artificer Ghost wrote:Dunce, I thought med-slots were Equipment? Based on the symbols that showed when I was fitting my ship, it looked like mid-slots were equipment, what with the Warp Distruptors, and Micro warp-drives, Afterburners and whatnot. The closest equivalent to equipment would be high-slot modules, but some things that would be mid-slot items in EVE would probably be equipment if adapted for infantry.
Artificer Ghost wrote:Either way, I see that Damage Mods aren't the problem, and I know the weapons are, but nerfing damage mods a little bit would still be a step in the right direction. Maybe my proposition was a bit much? What's your guy's suggestions for numbers? Because from what Knapse is telling me, the HP modules, on paper, are better than Damage Mods. However, in-game, I wont even bother fitting a Complex Shield Extender, even if it brings my eHP over that of a heavy, because if I fit a Damage Mod instead, I'll out-DPS a Proto-Heavy, even in CQC.
2% // 5% // 8%? Better yet, replace pure damage mods with other weapon mods that do stuff besides increase damage.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Cosgar
ParagonX
8715
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Moving damage mods to low slots and scanning (and future EWAR) to high slots would go a long way. Weapon mod are a low slot in EVE.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Cardio Therapy
DVC 514
2
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Ghost, my friend, you seem to be mistaken about some things.
Damage Modifiers are just that. Modifiers. They aren't the problem, they just exemplify the problem. 10% increased damage? That's a nice boost, but you'll have to sacrifice a module slot that could be used to give +66 Shields, which is approximately 20% increased HP for a medium-frame dropsuit. If you replace the Complex Damage Modifier's +10% with a +3% it will become totally worthless.
See? 10% versus 20%. The tanking module is superior from a statistical perspective. So clearly, the problem lies elsewhere, primarily with the fact that weapon DPS is ridiculously high when compared to dropsuit HP.
True on paper but not in the game. shields are useless. you still got killed for the same time. that's why I stop equipping shields and do only dmg mods. anyway you are killed in less than a second, specially with the new Combat rifle.
What is 66 shield? one and half bullet from the AR where it is shooting 12.5 bulets in a second.
Why to chose 66 shielld when with 2 dmg mods on an adv suite I will do 580 DMG per second with GEK AR???? Or a lot more with combat rifle. |
Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
744
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cardio Therapy wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Ghost, my friend, you seem to be mistaken about some things.
Damage Modifiers are just that. Modifiers. They aren't the problem, they just exemplify the problem. 10% increased damage? That's a nice boost, but you'll have to sacrifice a module slot that could be used to give +66 Shields, which is approximately 20% increased HP for a medium-frame dropsuit. If you replace the Complex Damage Modifier's +10% with a +3% it will become totally worthless.
See? 10% versus 20%. The tanking module is superior from a statistical perspective. So clearly, the problem lies elsewhere, primarily with the fact that weapon DPS is ridiculously high when compared to dropsuit HP. True on paper but not in the game. shields are useless. you still got killed for the same time. that's why I stop equipping shields and do only dmg mods. anyway you are killed in less than a second, specially with the new Combat rifle. What is 66 shield? one and half bullet from the AR where it is shooting 12.5 bulets in a second. Why to chose 66 shielld when with 2 dmg mods on an adv suite I will do 580 DMG per second with GEK AR???? Or a lot more with combat rifle. Thank you for highlighting my point. You know, this one:
Ulysses Knapse wrote:So clearly, the problem lies elsewhere, primarily with the fact that weapon DPS is ridiculously high when compared to dropsuit HP.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Cardio Therapy
DVC 514
2
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Negris Albedo wrote:You're kidding, right? Only 1-3% Damage Modifiers? That's... there's no logic in that! Imagine if tanking modules were nerfed so that they were only 30% as effective as they are now. That would be simply outrageous!
And no, damage modifiers aren't the problem here, they just exemplify the problem.
There is a big logic in that. It will make people hink to go for dmg or shields, or scan or whatever. Now everyone is using dmg mods as the rest look useless. with dmg mods i survive a lot more than with shield extendors. this is not normal. |
KA24DERT
TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback
290
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 07:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
The rifles need a 30% nerf to their damage. |
ALPHA DECRIPTER
Dragon-Empire
633
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 07:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
change "[CCP Remnent=quote]" to "[quote=CCP Remnent]" or was that intentional? *going back to finish reading OP*
Scout Tactician
"You have been Scanned"
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Talos Vagheitan
290
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 09:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
Don't fix what isn't broken. Please explain to me why a lower TTK is "wrong".
Who cares what some sniper has to say
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Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
745
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 09:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Cardio Therapy wrote:There is a big logic in that. It will make people hink to go for dmg or shields, or scan or whatever. If they were nerfed that hard, I would personally abandon damage modifiers entirely.
+66 HP versus +3% Damage... Not much room for argument there. I'll take the HP!
Humanity is the personification of change.
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J'Hiera
Tech Guard RISE of LEGION
46
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 10:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
TTK is too low, defined by the fact that it doesnt matter if I fit basic or complex plates. |
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Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
745
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 10:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
J'Hiera wrote:defined by the fact that it doesnt matter if I fit basic or complex plates. Basic plates aren't half bad.
1. They don't slow you down as much. 2. They use fewer system resources.
Despite that, they still give decent armor bonuses. Pretty neato modules.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Artificer Ghost
Bojo's School of the Trades
703
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 10:32:00 -
[22] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:Don't fix what isn't broken. Please explain to me why a lower TTK is "wrong".
Not sure if you were here for closed/open beta, but this game was designed to be DIFFERENT from CoD. Since Day 1, a high TTK has been a big part of this game. Even Scouts had the lifetime of Heavies.
~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
745
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 10:46:00 -
[23] - Quote
To be honest, I think TTK is at a good place for the most part.
The main exceptions are: -Assault Rifles -Cooked Grenades -Vehicles -Shotguns and Nova Knives (arguably)
Other than those, the TTK is pretty solid as is.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Artificer Ghost
Bojo's School of the Trades
703
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 11:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
ONLY Assault Rifles? I say all rifles. The Rail Rifle has a charge up at the beginning, awesome. Not really a huge downside. Recoil I GUESS is an issue at lower levels, but 90% of people had skilled directly into the prototype on Day 1 of Uprising 1.7.
Combat Rifles, I guess, are fine, but the RoF combines with burst fire doesn't ever fail in CQC. Even while under fire, I always manage to kill my attacker.
Assault Rifles. I see no problem now. When I tried Assault Rifles with the coming of Uprising 1.7, I always lost to the other guns. There will probably be an OP problem when the other rifles get nerfed though.
Scrambler Rifles. They overheat pretty quickly if you're at lower levels and/or spam the button, but other than that, it's an AR with a Red Dot sight, longer range, and steeper fall-off damage.
~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
343
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 11:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:Don't fix what isn't broken. Please explain to me why a lower TTK is "wrong".
If you call practical inviability of any builds but glass cannons "isn-¦t broken" I dont wanna know what your definition of broken is. |
Mordecai Sanguine
What The French
207
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 12:28:00 -
[26] - Quote
Artificer Ghost wrote:Alright. This is a good one, so pull up your chairs, get some popcorn, and listen. First, though, I'd like this to be a constructive and informative discussion. If you need to, make it look like you're trying to hard. If you have a strong opinion, try to express it as I am now: Calmly. I want no "CAPS LOL" in here, or "0mg gost u suk kil urself" either. If you're going to post, please at least try to make it readable. :( Now that that's out of the way: Time To Kill (TTK), is, as we all know, at an all time low. Since Uprising 1.2 (Correct me if I'm wrong), minor (And major) fixes to the game have decreased the amount of time it takes to kill someone, to the point where it's near nothing. Even when stacking as much HP as I can, it takes me less than 10 seconds to kill or be killed. That's not a lot of time, compared to what we were at in Chromosome. CCP Remnant wrote:Combat should be fun. Long TTK is not fun if itGÇÖs the result of loose controls, poor aim assists or dance-strafing/bunny-hopping combat GÇô all problems that DUST has suffered from in the past. Valid statement. It's a truth that, in Chromosome, the hit detection, bunny hopping, and controls were a large part of the issue. HOWEVER, we've mostly sorted that out, with the following changes: -Jumping two times in a row (Without at least a couple seconds of pause) causes the stamina bar to drain more in the second jump, reducing it to nothing in 3 jumps. -Aim Assist and Controls have been completely re-vamped since Uprising 1.2 -Hit Detection is steadily improving, becoming infinitely better than Chromosome Of course, with these changes (Especially with Aim Assist and Hit Detection changes), some playstyles and classes have been completely wiped out of the game. Running a Speed-Tanking scout is no longer valid, unless you have a year+ of experience with the suit. I personally think, that the first thing to be looked at, is Damage Mods. Right now, they provide too much of a bonus, let's face it. In my opinion, they should provide a MINIMAL bonus. Enough to give you an advantage, but not enough to make you the clear-cut winner. My proposal: 1-2%, or anything in between (1.50% for example). Not much, I know, but note that the small amount of extra damage will be adding up with each shot. Soon, with a weapon like the A-CBR, in about 42 shots, you've done quite a bit of extra damage. With single-shot weapons, it'll still be viable, because normally the single-shot weapons deal INSANE amounts of damage per shot anyways, making the damage bonus even bigger. STD/MLT Damage Mod: 1% // ADV: 2% // PRO: 3%. Because as someone who used to run ONLY MLT damage mods, 3% damage increase is good no matter what weapon you're using. And remember: The job here isn't to balance damage mods, so brick tanking can also be 100% viable. The job is to increase TTK. Less damage = More TTK. Don't nerf weapons just yet, nerf modules. Except HP mods. Because those are important in TTK. :P
Nice idea.
But in fact weapons without damager is laready too much powerful and have a too low TTK. Since Hit detection issues some weapons ar FAAAAR too much powerful :
Assault rifles. SMG. Scrambler Rifle Combat rifle Rail rifle.
Yes the new weapons are totally too much powerful they were made to be as powerful than assault rifle which is OP.... They should have 5/10% less damage. (Only the weapons affected by the Hit detection issue exept HMG) |
Vell0cet
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
713
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 12:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
This is over-complicating things. Nerf the base damage of ARs (racial variants too) and SMGs by 10-30%. This will bring them back into balance with other weapons that have a fairly balanced TTK like the Mass Driver, HMG, Shotgun, Laser Rifle (it still needs a range buff), etc.
Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
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Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
748
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 13:09:00 -
[28] - Quote
Artificer Ghost wrote:ONLY Assault Rifles? I say all rifles. No, not all the rifles, all the Assault Rifles. Especially Rail Rifles and Combat Rifles.
Laser Rifles and Sniper Rifles are fine!
Oh, did I confuse you by calling the Racial ARs for what they are? Sorry, my bad.
Humanity is the personification of change.
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Draco Cerberus
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
602
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 13:22:00 -
[29] - Quote
A few weeks ago I suggested that Suit HP (All Classes) be increased by 30% or more (I'd go as high as 100%). Why is it that now others are seeing this short TTK as an issue too? My personal opinion is that while some suits are already pretty tanky, they still have no way to really sit and take a beating. This may allow for some mix and match fitting if the Base HP for all suits were increased and/or plate and extender bonuses by a similar amount, say 50%. So a Gallente Proto Logi with 800HP would move to be around 1200 HP giving it a 3 second TTK rather than a 2 second TTK. It doesn't seem like much but spread out through all the classes I think we could expect that spawning, moving 5ft and actually doing something other than dying may be an option (yes I know it's not nice to spawn camp but we all like to do it).
LogiGod earns his pips
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Artificer Ghost
Bojo's School of the Trades
706
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 14:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Artificer Ghost wrote:ONLY Assault Rifles? I say all rifles. No, not all the rifles, all the Assault Rifles. Especially Rail Rifles and Combat Rifles.
Oh, I didn't mean Sniper/Laser Rifles... Please CCP, just rename the AR to Plasma Rifle so I can better understand!
Well, if you mean all of the Assault Rifles, then yea, that idea sounds fine.
~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Cosgar
ParagonX
8730
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Posted - 2013.12.15 16:51:00 -
[31] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:To be honest, I think TTK is at a good place for the most part.
The main exceptions are: -Assault Rifles -Cooked Grenades -Vehicles -Shotguns and Nova Knives (arguably)
Other than those, the TTK is pretty solid as is. Shotguns are supposed to be high DPS, high risk, high reward. Sprinting while charging knives needs to be a thing along with making your default melee attack a knife swipe when equipped with them. Mainly short TTK gives rifles too much of an advantage and devalues strafing and sidearms. Shields are pretty crippled as well.
I've been mowing down people with my combat rifle and it just doesn't feel right. It's very bland and twitch, which scares me.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
760
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 02:33:00 -
[32] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:To be honest, I think TTK is at a good place for the most part.
The main exceptions are: -Assault Rifles -Cooked Grenades -Vehicles -Shotguns and Nova Knives (arguably)
Other than those, the TTK is pretty solid as is. Shotguns are supposed to be high DPS, high risk, high reward. Sprinting while charging knives needs to be a thing along with making your default melee attack a knife swipe when equipped with them. Mainly short TTK gives rifles too much of an advantage and devalues strafing and sidearms. Shields are pretty crippled as well. I've been mowing down people with my combat rifle and it just doesn't feel right. It's very bland and twitch, which scares me. Shotguns and Nova Knives do need to be toned down. Compared to Assault Rifles, they're pretty much fine, but compared to the other weapons they're a bit quick on the kill, even if you do consider their disadvantages.
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage looks nicer.
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Cosgar
ParagonX
8745
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Posted - 2013.12.16 02:36:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Cosgar wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:To be honest, I think TTK is at a good place for the most part.
The main exceptions are: -Assault Rifles -Cooked Grenades -Vehicles -Shotguns and Nova Knives (arguably)
Other than those, the TTK is pretty solid as is. Shotguns are supposed to be high DPS, high risk, high reward. Sprinting while charging knives needs to be a thing along with making your default melee attack a knife swipe when equipped with them. Mainly short TTK gives rifles too much of an advantage and devalues strafing and sidearms. Shields are pretty crippled as well. I've been mowing down people with my combat rifle and it just doesn't feel right. It's very bland and twitch, which scares me. Shotguns and Nova Knives do need to be toned down. Compared to Assault Rifles, they're pretty much fine, but compared to the other weapons they're a bit quick on the kill, even if you do consider their disadvantages. You have to be close enough to spit on someone with a shotgun and nova knives are only useful against someone standing still. WTF are you talking about?
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
760
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Posted - 2013.12.16 02:43:00 -
[34] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:You have to be close enough to spit on someone with a shotgun Yep, but we're not talking about range, we're talking about TTK.
Cosgar wrote:nova knives are only useful against someone standing still. WTF are you talking about? 1. Oh, we're including borderline bugs in our balance equation? 2. I once got one-shotted by a Nova Knifer in my tanky fit. And I was moving, by the way.
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage looks nicer.
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Faunher
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
28
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Posted - 2013.12.16 02:44:00 -
[35] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:Don't fix what isn't broken. Please explain to me why a lower TTK is "wrong".
This is Dust. Dust is a strategic counterpart to the run and gun arcade-esque FPS such as today. A low TTK eliminates the need for tactics greatly, especially in the case of fitting. If you want a low TTK go play CoD. |
Artificer Ghost
Bojo's School of the Trades
712
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 02:49:00 -
[36] - Quote
Honestly, I enjoy the fact that Knives + Shotgun are both so high-damaged. The kill quickly, are close range, and are relatively silent, compared to the bigger guns. These aspects make them great Stealth weapons. Of course, I'm a ninja who love to stalk my pray for minutes on end, so my opinion may be sort of skewed here.
~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Fizzer94
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
1238
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 03:38:00 -
[37] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:The problem isn't the damage mods. Average weapon DPS exceeds average dropsuit base HP. There's a little more to the equation like the proficiency skill, guns not having enough kick/dispersion, underpowered modules and other stuff, but the core issue is that the game has been balanced around bad hit detection. Hit detection got fixed and all the little fixes that were implemented to compensate need to be rescinded. Yeah. It really isn't damage mods. Anybody that has done the math, knows damage mods are not the real issue here...
Fizzer94 // Level 1 Forum Warrior // The Plasma Cannon is NOT underpowered
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Cosgar
ParagonX
8760
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Posted - 2013.12.16 03:42:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Cosgar wrote:You have to be close enough to spit on someone with a shotgun Yep, but we're not talking about range, we're talking about TTK. Cosgar wrote:nova knives are only useful against someone standing still. WTF are you talking about? 1. Oh, we're including borderline bugs in our balance equation? 2. I once got one-shotted by a Nova Knifer in my tanky fit. And I was moving, by the way. You're ignoring the fact that they're both alpha damage weapons. Without them, everyone would just run around with rifles, only worrying about other rifles. You need that one little bastard that can sneak up on you and down you in one hit when you're not paying attention.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Mordecai Sanguine
What The French
214
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 05:45:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Cosgar wrote:You have to be close enough to spit on someone with a shotgun Yep, but we're not talking about range, we're talking about TTK. Cosgar wrote:nova knives are only useful against someone standing still. WTF are you talking about? 1. Oh, we're including borderline bugs in our balance equation? 2. I once got one-shotted by a Nova Knifer in my tanky fit. And I was moving, by the way. You're ignoring the fact that they're both alpha damage weapons. Without them, everyone would just run around with rifles, only worrying about other rifles. You need that one little bastard that can sneak up on you and down you in one hit when you're not paying attention.
Nova Knife and Shotgun have a good "backstab" damage bonus.
In front they have low damage.
Sometime the guy shoot 4 times to kill my ADV suit (600ehp) |
Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
763
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 05:50:00 -
[40] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Cosgar wrote:You have to be close enough to spit on someone with a shotgun Yep, but we're not talking about range, we're talking about TTK. Cosgar wrote:nova knives are only useful against someone standing still. WTF are you talking about? 1. Oh, we're including borderline bugs in our balance equation? 2. I once got one-shotted by a Nova Knifer in my tanky fit. And I was moving, by the way. You're ignoring the fact that they're both alpha damage weapons. Without them, everyone would just run around with rifles, only worrying about other rifles. You need that one little bastard that can sneak up on you and down you in one hit when you're not paying attention. Yes, they are both alpha damage weapons, but you should still have some time to react.
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage looks nicer.
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Faunher
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
32
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Posted - 2013.12.16 05:53:00 -
[41] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Cosgar wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Cosgar wrote:You have to be close enough to spit on someone with a shotgun Yep, but we're not talking about range, we're talking about TTK. Cosgar wrote:nova knives are only useful against someone standing still. WTF are you talking about? 1. Oh, we're including borderline bugs in our balance equation? 2. I once got one-shotted by a Nova Knifer in my tanky fit. And I was moving, by the way. You're ignoring the fact that they're both alpha damage weapons. Without them, everyone would just run around with rifles, only worrying about other rifles. You need that one little bastard that can sneak up on you and down you in one hit when you're not paying attention. Yes, they are both alpha damage weapons, but you should still have some time to react. If you see them coming you should be able to shoot them down in time. But if they get the jump on you I believe they earned it. Sneaking up on someone isn't exactly the easiest thing to do in this game. This would also create an environment that encourages greater situational awareness on the part of those in danger of being shanked. |
TechMechMeds
Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc.
1770
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 05:54:00 -
[42] - Quote
Artificer Ghost wrote:Alright. This is a good one, so pull up your chairs, get some popcorn, and listen. First, though, I'd like this to be a constructive and informative discussion. If you need to, make it look like you're trying to hard. If you have a strong opinion, try to express it as I am now: Calmly. I want no "CAPS LOL" in here, or "0mg gost u suk kil urself" either. If you're going to post, please at least try to make it readable. :( Now that that's out of the way: Time To Kill (TTK), is, as we all know, at an all time low. Since Uprising 1.2 (Correct me if I'm wrong), minor (And major) fixes to the game have decreased the amount of time it takes to kill someone, to the point where it's near nothing. Even when stacking as much HP as I can, it takes me less than 10 seconds to kill or be killed. That's not a lot of time, compared to what we were at in Chromosome. CCP Remnant wrote:Combat should be fun. Long TTK is not fun if itGÇÖs the result of loose controls, poor aim assists or dance-strafing/bunny-hopping combat GÇô all problems that DUST has suffered from in the past. Valid statement. It's a truth that, in Chromosome, the hit detection, bunny hopping, and controls were a large part of the issue. HOWEVER, we've mostly sorted that out, with the following changes: -Jumping two times in a row (Without at least a couple seconds of pause) causes the stamina bar to drain more in the second jump, reducing it to nothing in 3 jumps. -Aim Assist and Controls have been completely re-vamped since Uprising 1.2 -Hit Detection is steadily improving, becoming infinitely better than Chromosome Of course, with these changes (Especially with Aim Assist and Hit Detection changes), some playstyles and classes have been completely wiped out of the game. Running a Speed-Tanking scout is no longer valid, unless you have a year+ of experience with the suit. I personally think, that the first thing to be looked at, is Damage Mods. Right now, they provide too much of a bonus, let's face it. In my opinion, they should provide a MINIMAL bonus. Enough to give you an advantage, but not enough to make you the clear-cut winner. My proposal: 1-2%, or anything in between (1.50% for example). Not much, I know, but note that the small amount of extra damage will be adding up with each shot. Soon, with a weapon like the A-CBR, in about 42 shots, you've done quite a bit of extra damage. With single-shot weapons, it'll still be viable, because normally the single-shot weapons deal INSANE amounts of damage per shot anyways, making the damage bonus even bigger. STD/MLT Damage Mod: 1% // ADV: 2% // PRO: 3%. Because as someone who used to run ONLY MLT damage mods, 3% damage increase is good no matter what weapon you're using. And remember: The job here isn't to balance damage mods, so brick tanking can also be 100% viable. The job is to increase TTK. Less damage = More TTK. Don't nerf weapons just yet, nerf modules. Except HP mods. Because those are important in TTK. :P
Sounds good.
CAPS LOCK LOL, omg ghost you suck, kill yourself.
Level 1 forum warrior.
Minmatar and Gallente fw.
I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.
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Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
763
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 06:39:00 -
[43] - Quote
If Scouts are buffed and ARs are nerfed, Nova Knives and Shotguns should probably be toned down just a little bit. Which is why I said that the TTK for them was "arguably" too short. Not "definitely" too short, but "arguably" too short, but only in comparison to other weapons, not to ARs. Furthermore, Nova Knives are sidearms after all, and no one likes being OHK'd by a sidearm. Also, If TTK was increased for ARs, Shotguns and Nova Knives would become less risky to use, so there's that, too.
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage looks nicer.
|
Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
344
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Posted - 2013.12.16 20:47:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote: Yes, they are both alpha damage weapons, but you should still have some time to react.
Alpha damage is the definition of not giving you time to react. The very purpose of an alpha damage wep is to take you out before you can react accordingly.
The problem is not with designated alpha damage weapons having short TTK, the problem is with every other weapon having the TTK of an alpha damage wep.
Assault Rifle, Combat Rifle, Rail Rifle, and Scrambler Rifle all have the TTK of an alpha damage weapon, with the Scrambler being the only one on the list actually designated as one.
Surely I cant be the only one having an issue with that? |
Artificer Ghost
Bojo's School of the Trades
712
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 21:02:00 -
[45] - Quote
Obviously not, as this is a thread dedicated to people having a problem with that. :P
But yea. I honestly think the Shotgun/Knives are in a very good place. They take skill to use (With the exception of sometimes the shotgun, but you still need high SP counts to use effectively), and reward you for it. For a Nova Knifer to get even close to 70% efficiency, he needs to learn how to sneak up on someone, how to deal with being seen, all of the escape routes of most maps, and needs at least 2.5 million SP in Profile Dampening, Knives, and Minmtar Scout. Then, he become true master.
Not to mention that hit detection with both of these weapons is just terrible. I'll give you a second opinion once hit detection is fixed though. Hopefully, they fix TTK AFTER fixing Hit Detection, because then it'd just be erasing what they just worked on...
~Art, CEO and Director of Educations at Bojo's School of The Trades, Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Ulysses Knapse
duna corp
773
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 21:16:00 -
[46] - Quote
Beeeees wrote:Alpha damage is the definition of not giving you time to react. Really? I disagree. I can list many examples where alpha damage is helpful without relying on reaction times.
Furthermore, Shotguns and Nova Knives are not pure alpha damage weapons. Shotguns can multiple times in a row, so calling them an alpha damage weapon doesn't really work unless you're comparing them to weapons designed for continuous fire, like automatic rifles. They're better at alpha damage than ARs, yes, but so are most of the non-automatic weapons.
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage looks nicer.
|
Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
347
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 22:33:00 -
[47] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Nova Knives are not pure alpha damage weapons. Except they are.
Also, alpha damage weapons are supposed to leave a dent big enough with the first strike as to give the target no chance of effectively retaliating. Ideally a dent big anough to cremate the target.
Right now any rifle is an alpha wep, because you have no chance to retaliate due to nonexistant TTK. Those that are alpha weps by design become useless, because they lost their nieche to rifles.
Why would I use a shotgun if an AR kills faster? |
John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
698
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 22:44:00 -
[48] - Quote
It makes more sense to decrease the base damage of the "guilty" weapons (the 4 rifles) than to either:
1) Get rid of damage mods: The math shows they are not better than pure tanking in most cases. Checkmate proved that in a thread he made about nerfing damage mods too, until he did the math and managed to talk himself out of his own argument against them.
2) Buff suit HP: This would keep the disparity between weapon types. LR's, MD's, HMG's, etc, would become more UP than they already are, which is to say, nearly useless. Sniper rifles (hate them or not they are part of combat) would also become pretty worthless.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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Shadow Archeus
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
173
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 23:01:00 -
[49] - Quote
Plain Jane damage mods are boring.....add mods that increase other things about the weapons.....rof....accuracy....reduce recoil(if there actually was any)......increase magazine capacity....modify how much damage to shields or armor....there's opportunity but will CCP take it |
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