DUST Search - [Feedback/Request] Fixing The TTK Issue

Cardio Therapy wrote:

Ulysses Knapse wrote:

Ghost, my friend, you seem to be mistaken about some things.

Damage Modifiers are just that. Modifiers. They aren't the problem, they just exemplify the problem. 10% increased damage? That's a nice boost, but you'll have to sacrifice a module slot that could be used to give +66 Shields, which is approximately 20% increased HP for a medium-frame dropsuit. If you replace the Complex Damage Modifier's +10% with a +3% it will become totally worthless.

See? 10% versus 20%. The tanking module is superior from a statistical perspective. So clearly, the problem lies elsewhere, primarily with the fact that weapon DPS is ridiculously high when compared to dropsuit HP.

True on paper but not in the game. shields are useless. you still got killed for the same time. that's why I stop equipping shields and do only dmg mods. anyway you are killed in less than a second, specially with the new Combat rifle.

What is 66 shield? one and half bullet from the AR where it is shooting 12.5 bulets in a second.

Why to chose 66 shielld when with 2 dmg mods on an adv suite I will do 580 DMG per second with GEK AR???? Or a lot more with combat rifle.


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Ulysses Knapse duna corp 739	Posted - 2013.12.15 04:19:00 - [1] - Quote Ghost, my friend, you seem to be mistaken about some things. Damage Modifiers are just that. Modifiers. They aren't the problem, they just exemplify the problem. 10% increased damage? That's a nice boost, but you'll have to sacrifice a module slot that could be used to give +66 Shields, which is approximately 20% increased HP for a medium-frame dropsuit. If you replace the Complex Damage Modifier's +10% with a +3% it will become totally worthless. See? 10% versus 20%. The tanking module is superior from a statistical perspective. So clearly, the problem lies elsewhere, primarily with the fact that weapon DPS is ridiculously high when compared to dropsuit HP. Humanity is the personification of change.
Ulysses Knapse duna corp 742	Posted - 2013.12.15 05:06:00 - [2] - Quote Artificer Ghost wrote: Dunce, I thought med-slots were Equipment? Based on the symbols that showed when I was fitting my ship, it looked like mid-slots were equipment, what with the Warp Distruptors, and Micro warp-drives, Afterburners and whatnot. The closest equivalent to equipment would be high-slot modules, but some things that would be mid-slot items in EVE would probably be equipment if adapted for infantry. Artificer Ghost wrote: Either way, I see that Damage Mods aren't the problem, and I know the weapons are, but nerfing damage mods a little bit would still be a step in the right direction. Maybe my proposition was a bit much? What's your guy's suggestions for numbers? Because from what Knapse is telling me, the HP modules, on paper, are better than Damage Mods. However, in-game, I wont even bother fitting a Complex Shield Extender, even if it brings my eHP over that of a heavy, because if I fit a Damage Mod instead, I'll out-DPS a Proto-Heavy, even in CQC. 2% // 5% // 8%? Better yet, replace pure damage mods with other weapon mods that do stuff besides increase damage. Humanity is the personification of change.
Ulysses Knapse duna corp 744	Posted - 2013.12.15 05:53:00 - [3] - Quote Cardio Therapy wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Ghost, my friend, you seem to be mistaken about some things. Damage Modifiers are just that. Modifiers. They aren't the problem, they just exemplify the problem. 10% increased damage? That's a nice boost, but you'll have to sacrifice a module slot that could be used to give +66 Shields, which is approximately 20% increased HP for a medium-frame dropsuit. If you replace the Complex Damage Modifier's +10% with a +3% it will become totally worthless. See? 10% versus 20%. The tanking module is superior from a statistical perspective. So clearly, the problem lies elsewhere, primarily with the fact that weapon DPS is ridiculously high when compared to dropsuit HP. True on paper but not in the game. shields are useless. you still got killed for the same time. that's why I stop equipping shields and do only dmg mods. anyway you are killed in less than a second, specially with the new Combat rifle. What is 66 shield? one and half bullet from the AR where it is shooting 12.5 bulets in a second. Why to chose 66 shielld when with 2 dmg mods on an adv suite I will do 580 DMG per second with GEK AR???? Or a lot more with combat rifle. Thank you for highlighting my point. You know, this one: Ulysses Knapse wrote: So clearly, the problem lies elsewhere, primarily with the fact that weapon DPS is ridiculously high when compared to dropsuit HP. Humanity is the personification of change.
Ulysses Knapse duna corp 745	Posted - 2013.12.15 09:52:00 - [4] - Quote Cardio Therapy wrote: There is a big logic in that. It will make people hink to go for dmg or shields, or scan or whatever. If they were nerfed that hard, I would personally abandon damage modifiers entirely. +66 HP versus +3% Damage... Not much room for argument there. I'll take the HP! Humanity is the personification of change.
Ulysses Knapse duna corp 745	Posted - 2013.12.15 10:09:00 - [5] - Quote J'Hiera wrote: defined by the fact that it doesnt matter if I fit basic or complex plates. Basic plates aren't half bad. 1. They don't slow you down as much. 2. They use fewer system resources. Despite that, they still give decent armor bonuses. Pretty neato modules. Humanity is the personification of change.
Ulysses Knapse duna corp 745	Posted - 2013.12.15 10:46:00 - [6] - Quote To be honest, I think TTK is at a good place for the most part. The main exceptions are: -Assault Rifles -Cooked Grenades -Vehicles -Shotguns and Nova Knives (arguably) Other than those, the TTK is pretty solid as is. Humanity is the personification of change.
Ulysses Knapse duna corp 748	Posted - 2013.12.15 13:09:00 - [7] - Quote Artificer Ghost wrote: ONLY Assault Rifles? I say all rifles. No, not all the rifles, all the Assault Rifles. Especially Rail Rifles and Combat Rifles. Laser Rifles and Sniper Rifles are fine! Oh, did I confuse you by calling the Racial ARs for what they are? Sorry, my bad. Humanity is the personification of change.
Ulysses Knapse duna corp 760	Posted - 2013.12.16 02:33:00 - [8] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: To be honest, I think TTK is at a good place for the most part. The main exceptions are: -Assault Rifles -Cooked Grenades -Vehicles -Shotguns and Nova Knives (arguably) Other than those, the TTK is pretty solid as is. Shotguns are supposed to be high DPS, high risk, high reward. Sprinting while charging knives needs to be a thing along with making your default melee attack a knife swipe when equipped with them. Mainly short TTK gives rifles too much of an advantage and devalues strafing and sidearms. Shields are pretty crippled as well. I've been mowing down people with my combat rifle and it just doesn't feel right. It's very bland and twitch, which scares me. Shotguns and Nova Knives do need to be toned down. Compared to Assault Rifles, they're pretty much fine, but compared to the other weapons they're a bit quick on the kill, even if you do consider their disadvantages. What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage? The pile of garbage looks nicer.
Ulysses Knapse duna corp 760	Posted - 2013.12.16 02:43:00 - [9] - Quote Cosgar wrote: You have to be close enough to spit on someone with a shotgun Yep, but we're not talking about range, we're talking about TTK. Cosgar wrote: nova knives are only useful against someone standing still. WTF are you talking about? 1. Oh, we're including borderline bugs in our balance equation? 2. I once got one-shotted by a Nova Knifer in my tanky fit. And I was moving, by the way. What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage? The pile of garbage looks nicer.
Ulysses Knapse duna corp 763	Posted - 2013.12.16 05:50:00 - [10] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Ulysses Knapse wrote: Cosgar wrote: You have to be close enough to spit on someone with a shotgun Yep, but we're not talking about range, we're talking about TTK. Cosgar wrote: nova knives are only useful against someone standing still. WTF are you talking about? 1. Oh, we're including borderline bugs in our balance equation? 2. I once got one-shotted by a Nova Knifer in my tanky fit. And I was moving, by the way. You're ignoring the fact that they're both alpha damage weapons. Without them, everyone would just run around with rifles, only worrying about other rifles. You need that one little bastard that can sneak up on you and down you in one hit when you're not paying attention. Yes, they are both alpha damage weapons, but you should still have some time to react. What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage? The pile of garbage looks nicer.

Ulysses Knapse duna corp 763	Posted - 2013.12.16 06:39:00 - [11] - Quote If Scouts are buffed and ARs are nerfed, Nova Knives and Shotguns should probably be toned down just a little bit. Which is why I said that the TTK for them was "arguably" too short. Not "definitely" too short, but "arguably" too short, but only in comparison to other weapons, not to ARs. Furthermore, Nova Knives are sidearms after all, and no one likes being OHK'd by a sidearm. Also, If TTK was increased for ARs, Shotguns and Nova Knives would become less risky to use, so there's that, too. What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage? The pile of garbage looks nicer.
Ulysses Knapse duna corp 773	Posted - 2013.12.16 21:16:00 - [12] - Quote Beeeees wrote: Alpha damage is the definition of not giving you time to react. Really? I disagree. I can list many examples where alpha damage is helpful without relying on reaction times. Furthermore, Shotguns and Nova Knives are not pure alpha damage weapons. Shotguns can multiple times in a row, so calling them an alpha damage weapon doesn't really work unless you're comparing them to weapons designed for continuous fire, like automatic rifles. They're better at alpha damage than ARs, yes, but so are most of the non-automatic weapons. What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage? The pile of garbage looks nicer.