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RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 528	Posted - 2013.12.14 15:20:00 - [1] - Quote There should be more nanohives variants available in return for LP. The ISK market has the gauged hives where you can hold onto 4 hives and drop 3 down at the same time and it also has triage hives (because your dear LogiBro wants to rep himself too) LP version only has the normal variant which only is 3 hives and only 2 could be deployed at the same time with the only bonus that it contains more clusters.
emtbraincase RETR0 PR0 GAMERS INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 34	Posted - 2013.12.14 16:20:00 - [2] - Quote If you want all benefits of a skill, you should need to spec into that skill. I shouldn't get access to all AR's just because I put 3 levels in it. Certain items make sense, like dropsuits and vehicles since they all operate similarly with only slots/size differnces (no operational differences), and the generic equipment/weapon variants should be all that LP gets you. Nobody should have access to everything because they fight for 1 side, but you should get the generic variant of whatever that race is famous for for each level (maybe a 2 item choice at proto like Tac v Assault or Assault v Breach). Also, triage on hives is a level 4 skill, you are not required to spend the extra 1-2 levels for triage, or the 2 levels to get a proto hive, so I think that is fair since you could spend that SP on other things that I couldn't since hives were a priority of mine. Also, a bonus is still a bonus even if you don't think it is as useful, and more clusters means more ammo means more WP means more SP per item dropped. You want wonderhives? Spec into them like we all did to get triage. EDIT Please don't take this as a personal attack. I have told my corpmates with this line of thinking like yours the same thing as here. I just think that LP should be a shortcut to the basics, but to fully flesh out an ability you should be required to max out that skill.
RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 529	Posted - 2013.12.14 17:02:00 - [3] - Quote I'm at level 5 and I don't really get why you broughtskill-level into your argument? I might be wrong but aren't the factional items supposed to be exclusive and better than their ISK counterparts? I don't directly find any stats online to check this, but I know that the injector and rep tool are. Sure, one of the proto LP nanohives has more clusters, but it has 1 hive less than the gauged ishukone hives. I can also put 3 ishukone hives at the same time instead of 2 with the LP version. This makes the extra clusters of the LP hives a non-factor as I have more clusters and mobility with the ISK version. As a logi, I view my equipments as Assaults see their weapon. Assault users get an exclusive AR for their LP, so why can't I get exclusive hives for my LP? I don't see why I have to pay the full ISK for my stuff while assaults can get it much cheaper with LP. It's already hard enough for logis as they have to gain LP from all 4 factions just for their equipment alone to have their suit running without a huge loss in FW. Next thing I know is that everyone is going to complain that they don't get help from their logis and they are too much focussed on killing stuff... The amount of WP gained for higher equipment levels is also botched and although more WP is nice, helping my squad is what matters the most.
emtbraincase RETR0 PR0 GAMERS INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 34	Posted - 2013.12.14 19:02:00 - [4] - Quote Then you can already buy them, so use that LP on other race-related items. Just saying most items have a lower skill requirement than the ISK counterpart, so it allows proto-level entry with adv-level sp investment. Carrying more (and better) gear to the battle at once helps both your team and your sp haul.
RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 535	Posted - 2013.12.14 19:07:00 - [5] - Quote I'm not interested in the lower skill requirement, I want that exclusive extra stuff.
emtbraincase RETR0 PR0 GAMERS INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 34	Posted - 2013.12.14 19:26:00 - [6] - Quote But aurum costs real money, and LP only cost time. Yes, time is a commodity, and worth maybe more than the aurum cost. However, that isn't everyone. You get aurum benefits if you invest the time instead of that money.
RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 535	Posted - 2013.12.14 19:45:00 - [7] - Quote So you are also not sure if LP stuff has an extra bonus because you keep ignoring that part or do think it's fine that nanohives have no exclusive bonus compared to other items?
emtbraincase RETR0 PR0 GAMERS INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 35	Posted - 2013.12.14 20:22:00 - [8] - Quote I ignore it because it doesn't matter overall. There are likely going to be some additions to it SoonGäó, thus possibly providing more depth at that time (such as when racial suit patch hits). If there is no significant difference at that time I will agree with you. But as it stands for an initial rollout, I think the LP store is a godsend to those of us who have spent all our SP on passives and base stats early and have maintained Adv since just after open beta "ended". I understand your frustration, but not getting a unique hive is, to me, a non-factor. I use them on almost every suit (Gallogi), and would like a bit of differentiation for a proto suit fit, but with all they did release I can't see it being that unfair. Again, if this is the finalized LP store (which I doubt), then I will join you. Until that time, I'm going to enjoy early-access proto.
RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 535	Posted - 2013.12.14 23:16:00 - [9] - Quote I don't care if it's a non-factor TO YOU, I do care if it's different compared to other items, because you know...that would be unfair. Now go figure out which opinion is based on a rational basis and which one on an irrational one. I don't see why future additions (where he hell do you get that info?) would suddenly change your perspective and why can't we have it now instead of later especially if it "doesn't matter overall" to you. Might as well just agree with it now instead of selling this nonsense.
emtbraincase RETR0 PR0 GAMERS INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 35	Posted - 2013.12.15 00:26:00 - [10] - Quote Looking at the LP store (as I wirte this), you actually have a choice of 2 nanohives at proto level. The AR and other weapons/equip with multiple variants also have 2 proto variants. I don't see the complaint. I'm sorry. I stand by my initial assessment.

RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 537	Posted - 2013.12.15 10:21:00 - [11] - Quote If you wouldn't be so ignorant you would have noticed that the ISK version of the Duvolle AR uses 90CPU and 13PG while the LP variant uses only 47CPU and 6PG. This makes the LP AR an exclusive weapon with a big fitting advantage. Now let's take a look at the nanohives: One of the LP hives is exactly the same as the ISK variant which is not a problem because people who haven't got the skill to level 5 can use it too and the LP tactical AR is the same as the ISK variant too. No problem there. The second LP hive only has more clusters, but it has no advantage compared to the ISK variant of the gauged hives which is not in line with the other items. We actually have only one variant of protohives in the LP market (one only has more cluster, see above), we don't have triage hives at protolevel while the AR gets an 'assault' and 'tactical' variant. Conclusion: LP nanohives are limited in advantage (if you can call it an advantage) compared to other items unless you are ignorant.
Lorhak Gannarsein 701	Posted - 2013.12.15 12:23:00 - [12] - Quote emtbraincase wrote: Looking at the LP store (as I wirte this), you actually have a choice of 2 nanohives at proto level. The AR and other weapons/equip with multiple variants also have 2 proto variants. I don't see the complaint. I'm sorry. I stand by my initial assessment. Your original assessment is utterly flawed. Unlike with weapons, there is NO LOGICAL REASON TO SPEND LP ON NANOHIVES. Unlike with weapons, there is no benefit granted by the LP gear that is not already granted to a much greater degree for the nanohives. I run an Imperial Viziam Specialist Scrambler Rifle. It's proto-plus gear, and had prototype effectiveness at advanced fitting costs. The prototype State Ishukone Nanohive (or whatever the proto-plus is called) is actually inferior to simply using Ishukone Gauged Nanohives. The Gauged Nanohives have fewer clusters per hive, true. But you can place three at a time, for four total, meaning that they are FAR superior to the 'proto-plus' variant. The LP store is by far stacked against logistics players and towards slayers. >Cosgar: You know, tanks are actually paper thin once their modules are in cooldown.
emtbraincase RETR0 PR0 GAMERS INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 35	Posted - 2013.12.15 18:53:00 - [13] - Quote So what I am hearing is that putting 3 levels into a logi suit, hives, rep tool, scanner and weapon of choice yet being able to fit a fully-comparable (your comparison, not mine) proto variant isn't a big enough advantage for a logi, or anyone else? I see that as the major benefit to the LP store, with minor differences to usefulness. Yes, unique equipment is fun and interesting to find useful implementation, but there is no standard in the store except how many variants are there. Some have better/worse stats for increased/decreased costs while others are level-reduced proto-equivalents, so why is it that having LP hives comparable to 2 hives already restricted to proto in ISK purchase available to you at level 3 a negative? And as for no logical reason, the reason is you save the SP that would've been spent on level 4-5 of Nanocircuitry/suit variant/etc and can still use proto-equivalent gear. That means that the logi can make their reps/armor/shields/etc mods work better with SP that would've been required in nanocircuitry 5 for those hives (as well as getting LP variants of all those items if they choose to go that route. Thus you are saving SP to be put elsewhere, since you don't get a boost to how well the hives/injectors work at higher level investment since it is fixed. If that isn't a large enough bonus, then I can at least discuss that, but I think I have explained why I think you are wrong. Is it different/useful enough for everyone, absolutely not. Is it an overall benefit that you aren't willing to admit to since it doesn't directly benefit yourself, I would have to think so.
RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 542	Posted - 2013.12.15 20:20:00 - [14] - Quote 1. We are not talking about SP (or time) investment. 2. The LP versions are worse than the ISK versions at protolevel so there goes your 'be a better logi by investing your SP elsewhere'. PS: There is actually a decrease in CPU/PG usage if you skill into the nanocircuity skill. 3. We have AUR gear to test out better gear than we skilled into. 4. LP gear is supposed to be exclusive. 5. You're full of bullshit. Previously you say you are going to enjoy early proto-access because you skilled your passive skills up first. So this SP-crap you are trying to sell to us is actually in YOUR FAVOUR while you are trying to make it look like I'm biased because it's not in my favor. To end it of you say you have already acces to protogear. What is is going to be holmes? 6. We have finally established that your reasoning is biased on an illogical way, so why should we listen to you?
emtbraincase RETR0 PR0 GAMERS INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 35	Posted - 2013.12.16 00:43:00 - [15] - Quote 1. You should be. Not everything is early release, but where it is can make a difference for anyone. However, since hives are not that way, I can understand this, however.... 2. here are actual numbers State Ishukone Quantum (7083 isk/150LP) vs Isukone Guaged (28335 isk) active 2 v 3 carried: 3 v 4 clusters 90 v 72 range 7m v 7m rate 35% v 30% triage:no v no Health 400HP each CPU 59 each PG 11 each *a refill is from 0 ammo to full, not 1 clip. A single hive of each 90 clusters x .35 (replenish rate) = 31.5 refills vs 72 x .3 (replenish rate)=21.6 refills advantage: LP If I were to go further and just say what they can do while out at once 90 clusters x 2 active = 180 clusters vs 72 clusters x 3 active = 216 clusters 180 x .35 = 63 refills vs 216 x .3 = 64.8 refills advantage: ISK However, if you take the total number of hives deployable and if they get fully exhausted you get this.... 90 clusters x 3 = 270 total available clusters vs 72 x 4 = 288 270 x .35 (rate of replenish) = 94.5 refills vs 288 x .30 (rate of replenish) = 86.4 refills advantage: LP More people got their ammo refilled by those three hives than the 4 on isk variant, as well as on a single hive basis. The only time that the hive is going to be outperformed is when you have all 3 active and operational at once. In regards to a random berry (green or blue), running over each hive, they will get more on they stop, and faster, than the isk variant by almost 9 full refills. 3. If SP shouldn't factor in, then neither should Aur. Aur costs real world money that is not available to everyone. Playing FW is/can be a way to get Aur benefis if you are poor and use Dust as a free game to play with friends. You may have enough money to think of Aur as a quick way to better suits, but I don't have enough spare money for that to register as a legitimate possiblity. I know many who feel the same. Enough to say this is at best a push. No SP talk, no Aur talk. 4. LP gear is exclusive. You don't play FW for that faction, you don't get that faction's gear available to you. 5 Showed you (with math) that the LP hive is better on individual, or overall basis.....just not if all possibile are rocking at once. And the second that the final hive for each goes out, then the LP will eventually pass up quite rapidly. edit* only pointing out we are both biased. 6. Math above is my logic.
RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 543	Posted - 2013.12.16 13:24:00 - [16] - Quote 1. Funny as your logical explanation didn't include SP. 2. Cool, didn't notice the rate difference before, I'll guess I have to reevaluate now (but not for the reasons you mentioned earlier). 3. I'm not factoring it in, just pointing out that your ISK VS LP VS time is a stupid factor when there are AUR items, I'm not exactly sure why CCP decided to give early proto-acces with LP bc they always seem to like your money for useless gear in other cases. 4. Exclusive as in better than items that can be purchased by ISK, not exclusive of faction, did you see me complaining about it being restricted to a faction? 5. This point was about selling bullshit. 6. So you agree that your other arguments were bullshit? The question now is: are those extra 8 refills worth the cost of mobility (putting one more hive in an extra location). I guess the answer is NO when your hives get fluxed and/or the battle is moving to a different place and YES when you are doing a point-defense and/or have access to a supply depot. There are still no triage hives available in the LP store while you do get two variants of each weapon, so are LP nanohives lacking? Are assault-style players more favored by the LP market?


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