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Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
53
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Posted - 2013.12.12 07:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, I am making a serious thread about AV and tanks because it seems the forums have been flooded with QQ and sarcasm (I helped on that last one). Before I begin though, I would like to address two points that people have brought up that I don't believe are relevant to the question of are tanks balanced right now or not.
- First, fuel injectors. It seems CCP accidentally added an extra 0 somewhere and now tanks can move like the Galactica. I don't think anyone is saying these aren't bugged/glitched/OP and it seems an easy hotfix will bring these back in line with what they were intended to be (or maybe removed all together with the new speed of vehicles?).
- Second, the sheer number of tanks currently roaming the battlefields of New Eden. Again, this is probably going to get worked out in a week or two. Just like Combat and Rail rifles are filling my kill feed, in a week or two people will stop calling in militia and LP tanks just to try them.
Now, to the main point. People are complaining that their swarms and AV nades aren't affecting shield tanks while their hardeners are up. Well, that's kinda the point isn't it? For 30-45 seconds, a tank has a large bonus to damage resistance and can take a lot of damage, especially from AV weapons designed to kill armor instead of shield tanks, then it has a long cool down where it is vulnerable. Even with a hardener up, forge guns and flux nades can still hurt a shield tank. As soon as that hardener runs out, the 3-4k shield hp can get devoured by swarms and AV, not to mention single forge gun shots taking 45% or more shield hp off a Gunnlogi. Armor tanks, on the other hand have a slightly different setup, being vulnerable to swarms and av nades and being resistant to forge and flux. With armor tanks, same rules apply, swarms will WTFBOOM an armor tank without a hardener on and still do enough damage to put the hurt on the tank with it on. With hardeners having a VERY obvious effect, it seems AV has no excuse not to attack when the hardeners are down, or know when they will need to make sure they have plenty of firepower. As far as people complaining that tanks no longer need teamwork, the fact is it's not true. Assuming no fuel injector and the AV player makes the smart choice to get as close as possible (and equal meta levels and sp), the AV player can solo a tank by catching him with his hardeners on cool down or baiting him to use his hardeners and then getting in a position to do the former.
Well that's all I have for now, I need to get to bed as I have a final exam in a few hours. If you want to QQ or simply insult people from the other side of the argument go to my other thread that is markedly less serious than this. Join the discussion and DFTBA.
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Repe Susi
Rautaleijona
Top Men.
816
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Posted - 2013.12.12 07:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
One problem I saw yesterday:
When the tank starts getting swarms and other AV against it, it's hardener and fuel injector time. Dash away with that incredible speed where you can't be touched and when in full health, come back to the battlefield to wreak havoc.
Not good.
Smeehf.
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Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
53
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Posted - 2013.12.12 07:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Repe Susi wrote:One problem I saw yesterday:
When the tank starts getting swarms and other AV against it, it's hardener and fuel injector time. Dash away with that incredible speed where you can't be touched and when in full health, come back to the battlefield to wreak havoc.
Not good.
Read the first item in the original post's list please. |
Lorhak Gannarsein
675
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Posted - 2013.12.12 07:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Repe Susi wrote:One problem I saw yesterday:
When the tank starts getting swarms and other AV against it, it's hardener and fuel injector time. Dash away with that incredible speed where you can't be touched and when in full health, come back to the battlefield to wreak havoc.
Not good.
Thing is bug. Stop QQ.
Cosgar: You know, tanks are actually paper thin once their modules are in cooldown.
(Am too sleepy to quote properly)
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4135
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Posted - 2013.12.12 07:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Commander Tzu wrote: First, fuel injectors. It seems CCP accidentally added an extra 0 somewhere and now tanks can move like the Galactica. I don't think anyone is saying these aren't bugged/glitched/OP and it seems an easy hotfix will bring these back in line with what they were intended to be (or maybe removed all together with the new speed of vehicles?).
I think someone should point out this appears to only be a problem with the MILITIA version of the module. Prototype model gives you a 30% speed increase. Militia gives 100%. Take a wild guess where the typo happened. |
Thorn Badblood
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
107
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Posted - 2013.12.12 09:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
With the matches being 16 v 16, what percent of your team should have to dedicate themselves to killing 1 vehicle.
3 is almost 20% of your team to kill 1 guy.
D2D. A Non-Prophet Organization
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Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
355
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Posted - 2013.12.12 09:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thorn Badblood wrote:With the matches being 16 v 16, what percent of your team should have to dedicate themselves to killing 1 vehicle.
3 is almost 20% of your team to kill 1 guy.
And to kill six tanks it would take 110% of your team. Another triumph of CCP game design. |
Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
827
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Posted - 2013.12.12 09:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Commander Tzu wrote: First, fuel injectors. It seems CCP accidentally added an extra 0 somewhere and now tanks can move like the Galactica. I don't think anyone is saying these aren't bugged/glitched/OP and it seems an easy hotfix will bring these back in line with what they were intended to be (or maybe removed all together with the new speed of vehicles?).
I think someone should point out this appears to only be a problem with the MILITIA version of the module. Prototype model gives you a 30% speed increase. Militia gives 100%. Take a wild guess where the typo happened.
Honestly a 30% increase seems a bit much with how fast the base speed is. Until I see it I can't say for sure, but it still seems a bit much when the acceleration time for tanks is already this low.
Also, I run one on my LAV, they definitely need a longer cooldown time.
MINMATAR ARISE! DEMAND that our race's suits be FIXED!!!
MATARI PRIDE!!
FIX TTK!!
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Jack Boost
Zarena Family
289
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Posted - 2013.12.12 09:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yesterday I got every posible kind of match - tank vs AV-swarm-infranty.
(Forges are... nevermind)
1- tanks going after tanks
2- 2 tanks going for infranty. + infranty back up
3- 5 tanks going for infranty in happy mood.
AD. 1 - nice match we help each other. My AV fits and tank chase give me fun but no so much isk/sp.
AD. 2 - slaughter. Enemy kill everyting at sight... inch by inch. Push all, all around map. My AV fits going down one by one... result 4/10 .... 8 position in wp (yea more logis then ppl that actualy do anyting), most kill in team!, none of enemy tank down.
HUGE ISK lost
AD.3 Almost same situation like point 2... but not enough red infranty.
Outcome... 10/2 first place... I get 6 tank onself with ... how to say... blueberry help as bait. Yes tanks go roaming in happy mood ... but after 6min.. they dont get any more tanks. Unfortunetly... not much more time to win battle for us.
So, AV are still valid if you have time and luck. But these things are always in shortage at battlefield.
SP from AV fighting are terrible.
ISK sink is huge. (70k tanks vs 90k av - nice :)
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MINA Longstrike
2Shitz 1Giggle
166
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Posted - 2013.12.12 10:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Thorn Badblood wrote:With the matches being 16 v 16, what percent of your team should have to dedicate themselves to killing 1 vehicle.
3 is almost 20% of your team to kill 1 guy. And to kill six tanks it would take 110% of your team. Another triumph of CCP game design.
You're either being sarcastic, or you're stupid... I'm not sure which.
Now just for the sake of being pedantic I'm going to assume you're serious and my only response is 'do your guns stop working after you kill one tank?'. The answer to that rhetorical question is *no*, go find a supply depot, grab an LAV and zoom around the map tank hunting with your 3 man squad. |
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Aikuchi Tomaru
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1240
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Posted - 2013.12.12 10:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Thorn Badblood wrote:With the matches being 16 v 16, what percent of your team should have to dedicate themselves to killing 1 vehicle.
3 is almost 20% of your team to kill 1 guy. And to kill six tanks it would take 110% of your team. Another triumph of CCP game design.
And if the enemy is using 6 tanks you win anyways because tankers aren't really known for their ability to capture points. So you just **** it then and stay in CQC. |
Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
827
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Posted - 2013.12.12 10:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aikuchi Tomaru wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Thorn Badblood wrote:With the matches being 16 v 16, what percent of your team should have to dedicate themselves to killing 1 vehicle.
3 is almost 20% of your team to kill 1 guy. And to kill six tanks it would take 110% of your team. Another triumph of CCP game design. And if the enemy is using 6 tanks you win anyways because tankers aren't really known for their ability to capture points. So you just **** it then and stay in CQC.
And get cloned when they sit outside the cqc areas waiting to fire in blaster rounds when the other team flushes you out with core locus grenades. Smart.
FYI, it only takes 1 person to run a tank, so 6 tanks usually means 10 infantry are still running around.
It's dangerous to travel the forums alone, take this! (.:'*Honeyed'Lamb*':.)
FIX TTK & MINSUITS (GîÉ_GîÉ )
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
2494
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Posted - 2013.12.12 10:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tanks working as intended.
Vehicle > infantry. |
pegasis prime
BIG BAD W0LVES
1409
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Posted - 2013.12.12 10:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Thorn Badblood wrote:With the matches being 16 v 16, what percent of your team should have to dedicate themselves to killing 1 vehicle.
3 is almost 20% of your team to kill 1 guy. And to kill six tanks it would take 110% of your team. Another triumph of CCP game design.
so by your logic once the first tank is dead the av guy just ignores the rest and leaves them to their team or do they turn to the next tank ......it dosent take a whole team to kill 6 tanks unless you want them all dead at the one time
Its gone from suck .....to blow
level 1 forum warrior
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XxGhazbaranxX
The New Age Outlaws
WINMATAR.
764
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Posted - 2013.12.12 10:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Tanks working as intended.
Vehicle > infantry.
I find this very true. Now All I saw was this exact scenario:
Vehicle comes in - I shoot with my plasma cannon - hardeners go on - I shoot again from cover - I deal little damage - wait a bit - tank either leaves or I shoot it again when it has no hardener - tank leaves or tank dies
Plasma Cannon Advocate
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Jack McReady
DUST University
Ivy League
840
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Posted - 2013.12.12 10:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
Aikuchi Tomaru wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Thorn Badblood wrote:With the matches being 16 v 16, what percent of your team should have to dedicate themselves to killing 1 vehicle.
3 is almost 20% of your team to kill 1 guy. And to kill six tanks it would take 110% of your team. Another triumph of CCP game design. And if the enemy is using 6 tanks you win anyways because tankers aren't really known for their ability to capture points. So you just **** it then and stay in CQC.
captureing does not win games. keeping the enemy dead away from points is what wins the game. basic dust 514 lesson. |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
323
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Posted - 2013.12.12 10:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Thorn Badblood wrote:With the matches being 16 v 16, what percent of your team should have to dedicate themselves to killing 1 vehicle.
3 is almost 20% of your team to kill 1 guy. And to kill six tanks it would take 110% of your team. Another triumph of CCP game design. You're either being sarcastic, or you're stupid... I'm not sure which. Now just for the sake of being pedantic I'm going to assume you're serious and my only response is 'do your guns stop working after you kill one tank?'. The answer to that rhetorical question is *no*, go find a supply depot, grab an LAV and zoom around the map tank hunting with your 3 man squad.
And you are assuming all tanks come in one after another or sitting side by side without shooting  |
Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
356
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Posted - 2013.12.12 12:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Thorn Badblood wrote:With the matches being 16 v 16, what percent of your team should have to dedicate themselves to killing 1 vehicle.
3 is almost 20% of your team to kill 1 guy. And to kill six tanks it would take 110% of your team. Another triumph of CCP game design. You're either being sarcastic, or you're stupid... I'm not sure which. Now just for the sake of being pedantic I'm going to assume you're serious and my only response is 'do your guns stop working after you kill one tank?'. The answer to that rhetorical question is *no*, go find a supply depot, grab an LAV and zoom around the map tank hunting with your 3 man squad.
Why do that when a single rail tank achieves the same results? I.e. tank>infantry. |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
2586
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Posted - 2013.12.12 12:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Repe Susi wrote:One problem I saw yesterday:
When the tank starts getting swarms and other AV against it, it's hardener and fuel injector time. Dash away with that incredible speed where you can't be touched and when in full health, come back to the battlefield to wreak havoc.
Not good. Thing is bug. Stop QQ.
We aren't allowed complain about a bug?
No.
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Leovarian L Lavitz
NECROM0NGERS
Covert Intervention
855
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Posted - 2013.12.12 12:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
I believe that by design both teams are supposed to field a number of tanks, dropships, and lavs in addition to infantry. 10 infantry taking points with 6 vehicles doing vehicle things.
Omni-Soldier
Few are my equal in one of these specialties, and there are none who can compare in all of them.
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Sinboto Simmons
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
3044
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Posted - 2013.12.12 12:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
Leovarian L Lavitz wrote:I believe that by design both teams are supposed to field a number of tanks, dropships, and lavs in addition to infantry. 10 infantry taking points with 6 vehicles doing vehicle things.
Indeed but 6 tanks is overpreforming lol.
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja
Forum Warrior level 3
STB-Infantry (Demolition)
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Darken-Sol
BIG BAD W0LVES
781
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Posted - 2013.12.12 12:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
Leovarian L Lavitz wrote:I believe that by design both teams are supposed to field a number of tanks, dropships, and lavs in addition to infantry. 10 infantry taking points with 6 vehicles doing vehicle things.
it is way easier to camp a cru with a squad of sicas. And now its cheaper than protosuits. I wonder which game these blueberries will purchase instead of playing dust for free |
Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
62
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Posted - 2013.12.12 13:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
Darken-Sol wrote:Leovarian L Lavitz wrote:I believe that by design both teams are supposed to field a number of tanks, dropships, and lavs in addition to infantry. 10 infantry taking points with 6 vehicles doing vehicle things. it is way easier to camp a cru with a squad of sicas. And now its cheaper than protosuits. I wonder which game these blueberries will purchase instead of playing dust for free
There's a lot of people saying essentially this same thing, so instead of getting all of them in on this I will be lazy this morning and just quote you.
One thing comes to mind immediately, which is: why would you spawn on a CRU that is being camped, whether it is by tanks or infantry. I ran Dragonfly scouts and Ravens almost as much as my tanks before 1.7, and I have been in this situation before. Protip: Drop Uplinks and profile dampened scout suits are your friend in this scenario; just spawn in somewhere other than the CRU, if it is being camped by a full squad that means there is only ten people left to cover the rest of the map. People are saying that having to assign a whole squad of AV to kill tanks is lame because then you lose those 6 people and it becomes 14 v 10 or something near that. But, if they have 6 tanks on a CRU then you are in the same situation that AV people are complaining about being in; now your team has the advantage in suits for other areas of the map. You could have 3 people spawning on uplinks near the CRU hitting the tanks with AV and hiding; effectively taking a whole squad out of action for a little while and giving your team the +3 advantage. Now, if they have infantry then it is a slightly different story because then all I can say is ninja those other objectives out from under their whole team camping that one CRU. Militia tanks cost less than protosuits yea, but fully proto fitted AV suits can wreck militia tanks. Hardeners for militia tanks have a VERY long cool down. Of course, theoretically, you could always call in an equal amount of cheap militia tanks. Or one Gunnlogi or Madrugar who knows what they are doing. But honestly, go buy some militia tanks and fit them, I can even help to get you a really good militia fit, and run them for a few matches. I bet you will notice there is a lot less AV than before 1.7, and that when you actually find av it will be more potent than you think. |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
4072
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Posted - 2013.12.12 14:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
Repe Susi wrote:One problem I saw yesterday:
When the tank starts getting swarms and other AV against it, it's hardener and fuel injector time. Dash away with that incredible speed where you can't be touched and when in full health, come back to the battlefield to wreak havoc.
Not good.
Again, this is related to the broken Nitrous module.
I will also take the opportunity in this thread to once again state that whatever fixes are necessary as far as RDVs are concerned need to be taken care of so that an RDV is involved in recalling tanks. They're only even staying in the tank because they can get away with that broken module. As soon as you take that away they'll just pull behind a corner and Houdini their tanks away just like they always used to.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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chase rowland
The Enclave Syndicate
Dark Taboo
112
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Posted - 2013.12.12 14:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Commander Tzu wrote: First, fuel injectors. It seems CCP accidentally added an extra 0 somewhere and now tanks can move like the Galactica. I don't think anyone is saying these aren't bugged/glitched/OP and it seems an easy hotfix will bring these back in line with what they were intended to be (or maybe removed all together with the new speed of vehicles?).
I think someone should point out this appears to only be a problem with the MILITIA version of the module. Prototype model gives you a 30% speed increase.
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MINA Longstrike
2Shitz 1Giggle
169
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Posted - 2013.12.12 14:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Thorn Badblood wrote:With the matches being 16 v 16, what percent of your team should have to dedicate themselves to killing 1 vehicle.
3 is almost 20% of your team to kill 1 guy. And to kill six tanks it would take 110% of your team. Another triumph of CCP game design. You're either being sarcastic, or you're stupid... I'm not sure which. Now just for the sake of being pedantic I'm going to assume you're serious and my only response is 'do your guns stop working after you kill one tank?'. The answer to that rhetorical question is *no*, go find a supply depot, grab an LAV and zoom around the map tank hunting with your 3 man squad. Why do that when a single rail tank achieves the same results? I.e. tank>infantry. Edit - also Corvin is right, this doesn't work at all against a tank convoy. And I forgot to return your insult, so let me add that you're probably a no gungame scrub tanker who needs god mode to go positive 
Haven't touched a tank this patch other than to see what sick tricks I could do stunting off a ramp with a speed booster, I sunk all my sp back into dropships and so far I'm pretty happy splashing people to death when I'm not grinding amarr lp on my alt.
And if you really want to talk about no gun game all I have to say is forges have practically no travel time on the projectile, your av grenades have a ****ing homing function and all you need to do to make a swarm launcher work is not be so ****ing retardedas to be unable to centre an object 2/3rds the size of your screen in a box. "Waaaah but how am I supposed to defend myself when I'm aving" get 'gun game' and use that smg that is by all accounts better than a hmg. |
Anarchide
Greedy Bastards
1648
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Posted - 2013.12.12 15:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Thorn Badblood wrote:With the matches being 16 v 16, what percent of your team should have to dedicate themselves to killing 1 vehicle.
3 is almost 20% of your team to kill 1 guy. And to kill six tanks it would take 110% of your team. Another triumph of CCP game design. You're either being sarcastic, or you're stupid... I'm not sure which. Now just for the sake of being pedantic I'm going to assume you're serious and my only response is 'do your guns stop working after you kill one tank?'. The answer to that rhetorical question is *no*, go find a supply depot, grab an LAV and zoom around the map tank hunting with your 3 man squad. Why do that when a single rail tank achieves the same results? I.e. tank>infantry. Edit - also Corvin is right, this doesn't work at all against a tank convoy. And I forgot to return your insult, so let me add that you're probably a no gungame scrub tanker who needs god mode to go positive Haven't touched a tank this patch other than to see what sick tricks I could do stunting off a ramp with a speed booster, I sunk all my sp back into dropships and so far I'm pretty happy splashing people to death when I'm not grinding amarr lp on my alt. And if you really want to talk about no gun game all I have to say is forges have practically no travel time on the projectile, your av grenades have a ****ing homing function and all you need to do to make a swarm launcher work is not be so ****ing retardedas to be unable to centre an object 2/3rds the size of your screen in a box. "Waaaah but how am I supposed to defend myself when I'm aving" get 'gun game' and use that smg that is by all accounts better than a hmg.
Your sentence has been set.
1 month playing AV only without Forge Gun.
Dismiss
Greedy Bastards' Hate Lord
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Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
369
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Posted - 2013.12.12 15:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:MINA Longstrike wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Thorn Badblood wrote:With the matches being 16 v 16, what percent of your team should have to dedicate themselves to killing 1 vehicle.
3 is almost 20% of your team to kill 1 guy. And to kill six tanks it would take 110% of your team. Another triumph of CCP game design. You're either being sarcastic, or you're stupid... I'm not sure which. Now just for the sake of being pedantic I'm going to assume you're serious and my only response is 'do your guns stop working after you kill one tank?'. The answer to that rhetorical question is *no*, go find a supply depot, grab an LAV and zoom around the map tank hunting with your 3 man squad. Why do that when a single rail tank achieves the same results? I.e. tank>infantry. Edit - also Corvin is right, this doesn't work at all against a tank convoy. And I forgot to return your insult, so let me add that you're probably a no gungame scrub tanker who needs god mode to go positive Haven't touched a tank this patch other than to see what sick tricks I could do stunting off a ramp with a speed booster, I sunk all my sp back into dropships and so far I'm pretty happy splashing people to death when I'm not grinding amarr lp on my alt. And if you really want to talk about no gun game all I have to say is forges have practically no travel time on the projectile, your av grenades have a ****ing homing function and all you need to do to make a swarm launcher work is not be so ****ing retardedas to be unable to centre an object 2/3rds the size of your screen in a box. "Waaaah but how am I supposed to defend myself when I'm aving" get 'gun game' and use that smg that is by all accounts better than a hmg.
I exclusively use assault rifles. Is that gungame enough for you? |
DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
8681
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Posted - 2013.12.12 15:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
Designing vehicles to take advantage of "waves of opportunity" sounds great until you factor in that even without the glitch, tanks are insanely fast now, maps are wicked small, redlines exist, and we don't have E War.
If you want to be AV now, you need an AV vehicle. Otherwise, you're just tickling someones Elmo.
Vids / O7
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Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
63
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Posted - 2013.12.12 17:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Designing vehicles to take advantage of "waves of opportunity" sounds great until you factor in that even without the glitch, tanks are insanely fast now, maps are wicked small, redlines exist, and we don't have E War.
If you want to be AV now, you need an AV vehicle. Otherwise, you're just tickling someones Elmo.
You forgot forge guns. Even with their charge time nerf they can do hella damage to tanks, and best of all they actually have to aim. On a related note the funniest thing about all this is people complaining how easy tanks are now. Really now, you have to literally be blind to miss the signs when to attack an enemy tank, and even with hardeners on swarms and forges can hit hard vs the type of tank they are designed to kill. I agree though we don't really need any fuel injectors, tanks are fast enough now they can get out of harms way in a timely manner but still take 2-3 hits depending on the range/type of weapon.
Also I would just like to point out how funny it is that before 1.7 AVers accused tankers of not being able to use teamwork and now 6 of us camp a CRU and AVers cry some more. =D |
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