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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
208
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Posted - 2013.12.11 20:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
We should have a discussion about unkillable tanks.
http://i.imgur.com/pOfezYn.jpg
I theory crafted this before 1.7 and it is every bit as insane as I thought it would be. It is fun, but the only real infantry counter is high alpha strike damage (read: Remote Explosives). Missile tanks are pretty dangerous to my unhardened armor, but infantry AV has been unable to apply the sustained DPS, and any time I encounter an organized squad, I can just run away.
A possible solution might be to increase the clip size of the swarm launcher - let's say 10 or 12 rounds per clip. Thoughts?
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
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TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR
F.T.U.
IMMORTAL REGIME
795
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Posted - 2013.12.11 20:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Swarm Launcher doesn't even have 10 rounds in full ammo capacity. (without the skill at least)
but i have to agree, what the hell is this sorcery?
Tell me, how exactly DOES a biscuit gain Valor?
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1197
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Posted - 2013.12.11 20:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think 10 to 12 is way overkill, and honestly wont do much. Vehicles are faster now, meaning even if your swarm could hold 10 salvos, you wouldn't be able to use even half of them before the target is gone.
ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
209
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Posted - 2013.12.11 20:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
TranquilBiscuit ofVaLoR wrote:Swarm Launcher doesn't even have 10 rounds in full ammo capacity. (without the skill at least)
but i have to agree, what the hell is this sorcery?
Even before Tanks 514, any swarm fit had to come with a nanohive.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
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Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
Top Men.
528
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Posted - 2013.12.11 20:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
High alpha is the only way to take down tanks now IMO. Swarms are the way of the past, and will probably just get you killed when you go up against any infantry. REs and AV nades are where it's at. |
Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
209
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Posted - 2013.12.11 20:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sana Rayya wrote:High alpha is the only way to take down tanks now IMO. Swarms are the way of the past, and will probably just get you killed when you go up against any infantry. REs and AV nades are where it's at.
Tell me about it, I've lost a lot of Wiyrkomi Swarm Launchers with only a few assists to show for it. ...but, when I'm driving that tank, I'm laughing my @ss off the whole time.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
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Daddrobit
PFB Pink Fluffy Bunnies
379
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Posted - 2013.12.11 20:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
Shields can be be a bit ridiculous as well.
I was able to sneak up on a sica, a militia tank and get three proto level packed AV nades into it taking down all of its shields and 2/3 armor. It immediately hit it's shield booster(s) and was up to full shields before I could lock it with my swarm launcher. Then it was able to run so fast it was out of swarm launcher range before I could fully lock my third salvo of my first clip. And those two shots I got off were advanced level with 3 complex damage mods and took maybe 1/3. of its shields.
There is something wrong here. When weapons that do one thing and one thing only: kill tanks, cannot even kill a militia tank. |
ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
617
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Posted - 2013.12.11 21:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Luk Manag wrote:Sana Rayya wrote:High alpha is the only way to take down tanks now IMO. Swarms are the way of the past, and will probably just get you killed when you go up against any infantry. REs and AV nades are where it's at. Tell me about it, I've lost a lot of Wiyrkomi Swarm Launchers with only a few assists to show for it. ...but, when I'm driving that tank, I'm laughing my @ss off the whole time.
i pulled out a few proto swarms. got off 1 volley before being nuked down by everyone and barely scraped the tanks shields. swarms are dead now.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=99075&find
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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
212
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Posted - 2013.12.11 21:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Daddrobit wrote:Shields can be be a bit ridiculous as well.
I was able to sneak up on a sica, a militia tank and get three proto level packed AV nades into it taking down all of its shields and 2/3 armor. It immediately hit it's shield booster(s) and was up to full shields before I could lock it with my swarm launcher. Then it was able to run so fast it was out of swarm launcher range before I could fully lock my third salvo of my first clip. And those two shots I got off were advanced level with 3 complex damage mods and took maybe 1/3. of its shields.
There is something wrong here. When weapons that do one thing and one thing only: kill tanks, cannot even kill a militia tank.
By far, the easiest method to kill a tank is to call in your own tank. Maybe we could just un-nerf all of the AV to see if balance is restored?
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
214
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Posted - 2013.12.12 13:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
After further testing, I can say that my tank is far from unkillable. Damage amplifiers, packed AV grenades, and proto swarms can kill me if I get too cocky. I still think the swarm launcher clip size and total ammo should be increased.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
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Syeven Reed
RETR0 PR0 GAMERS
INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
211
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Posted - 2013.12.12 13:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
Luk Manag wrote:We should have a discussion about unkillable tanks. http://i.imgur.com/pOfezYn.jpgI theory crafted this before 1.7 and it is every bit as insane as I thought it would be. It is fun, but the only real infantry counter is high alpha strike damage (read: Remote Explosives). Missile tanks are pretty dangerous to my unhardened armor, but infantry AV has been unable to apply the sustained DPS, and any time I encounter an organized squad, I can just run away. A possible solution might be to increase the clip size of the swarm launcher - let's say 10 or 12 rounds per clip. Thoughts?
Have to make sure to take it out in under a second than hahaha.... *shoots self*
Gÿé Syeven 514
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ResistanceGTA
Valor Tactical Operations
Immortal Coalition of New-Eden
75
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Posted - 2013.12.12 14:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Luk Manag wrote:After further testing, I can say that my tank is far from unkillable. Damage amplifiers, packed AV grenades, and proto swarms can kill me if I get too cocky. I still think the swarm launcher clip size and total ammo should be increased.
That is the current downfall of even the best tanks. Then there are the ones driven by complete morons, those poor tanks were just raised in an unsafe environment with unfit parents. |
Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
1772
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Posted - 2013.12.12 14:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
I killed a maddy last night cause he only focused on me while a bloobie shot with swarms in the back(I was doing it from the front)
Guy was a idiot, but it still made me happy.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
1477
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Posted - 2013.12.12 14:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
Luk Manag wrote:We should have a discussion about unkillable tanks. http://i.imgur.com/pOfezYn.jpgI theory crafted this before 1.7 and it is every bit as insane as I thought it would be. It is fun, but the only real infantry counter is high alpha strike damage (read: Remote Explosives). Missile tanks are pretty dangerous to my unhardened armor, but infantry AV has been unable to apply the sustained DPS, and any time I encounter an organized squad, I can just run away. A possible solution might be to increase the clip size of the swarm launcher - let's say 10 or 12 rounds per clip. Thoughts?
Or, you know, you could squad with a competent tanker. I really don't see the problem with that.
Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
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Takron Nistrom
Tinfoil Hatz
143
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Posted - 2013.12.12 14:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Daddrobit wrote:Shields can be be a bit ridiculous as well.
I was able to sneak up on a sica, a militia tank and get three proto level packed AV nades into it taking down all of its shields and 2/3 armor. It immediately hit it's shield booster(s) and was up to full shields before I could lock it with my swarm launcher. Then it was able to run so fast it was out of swarm launcher range before I could fully lock my third salvo of my first clip. And those two shots I got off were advanced level with 3 complex damage mods and took maybe 1/3. of its shields.
There is something wrong here. When weapons that do one thing and one thing only: kill tanks, cannot even kill a militia tank.
You just proved what they wanted. No solo for vehicles. If there were 2 of you working together, you woulda had it.
GÇ£Pulvis et umbra sumus. (We are but dust and shadow.)GÇ¥
GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace
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KatanaPT
Tech Guard
RISE of LEGION
426
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Posted - 2013.12.12 14:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
holy sheet, nice repair rate!
Tech Guard Recruiting Spot
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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
217
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Posted - 2013.12.12 20:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
KatanaPT wrote:holy sheet, nice repair rate!
I just maxed out the repair rate skill. Instead of 100 HP/s for my large armor reps, it does 125 HP/s each. The ability to regenerate while under fire makes it seem superior to shields. The ability to restore 3750HP in 10 seconds compensates for the lack of a hardener.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
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Knight Soiaire
BurgezzE.T.F
Public Disorder.
3751
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Posted - 2013.12.12 20:24:00 -
[18] - Quote
That thing is an infantry slayer.
Wait for a hardened HAV to swoop in and ruin your day.
Buff Shotguns
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Harpyja
DUST University
Ivy League
897
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Posted - 2013.12.12 20:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
Luk Manag wrote:KatanaPT wrote:holy sheet, nice repair rate! I just maxed out the repair rate skill. Instead of 100 HP/s for my large armor reps, it does 125 HP/s each. The ability to regenerate while under fire makes it seem superior to shields. The ability to restore 3750HP in 10 seconds compensates for the lack of a hardener.
But even a non-damage modded Gunnlogi with missiles will still be enough to take you out with one clip. Hey, if you want to sacrifice anti-vehicle abilities to increase your anti-infantry abilities, go for it! I, however, will be rolling around with my missile Gunnlogi...
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
217
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Posted - 2013.12.12 20:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Luk Manag wrote:KatanaPT wrote:holy sheet, nice repair rate! I just maxed out the repair rate skill. Instead of 100 HP/s for my large armor reps, it does 125 HP/s each. The ability to regenerate while under fire makes it seem superior to shields. The ability to restore 3750HP in 10 seconds compensates for the lack of a hardener. But even a non-damage modded Gunnlogi with missiles will still be enough to take you out with one clip. Hey, if you want to sacrifice anti-vehicle abilities to increase your anti-infantry abilities, go for it! I, however, will be rolling around with my missile Gunnlogi...
It just wrecks infantry - it was kind of my point. I was thinking we could get a bit of a boost to swarm clip + ammo if the devs were feeling merciful for xmas.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
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Commander Tzu
L.O.T.I.S.
Public Disorder.
64
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Posted - 2013.12.12 20:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
You all seem quite perturbed over this triple rep idea. Too bad it's wrong. Has anyone tried triple armor reps? Yea against militia swarms it will probably work well, but check it against a guy with proto swarms and you'll see that it won't keep you alive longer than just using a hardener. But, I agree with the speed thing, as a tanker I can say we don't even need fuel injectors, tanks are fast enough to get out of a bad situation without them if the driver is paying attention. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4153
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Posted - 2013.12.12 20:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
That looks suspiciously similar in concept to my 110k Sica fitting.
I have a regen delay, but I also get slightly more HP to play with. Also, what's your movement speed? I think I may have an edge there as well. |
I-Shayz-I
I-----I
1623
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Posted - 2013.12.12 20:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
With most tanks now, their main weakness is their cooldown.
I have run behind a tank waiting for the hardeners to wear off, and when they did I hopped out of my LAV and destroyed it with two shots of my forge gun.
I think more people need to realize what the animations of the tanks mean now. You have to surprise the tank and not give it a chance to back up or get away, or get to a position where you can shoot at it as it is running away. When the hardeners are down you have to go all out on it, if you see the tank boost its shields all the way back up you have a whole minute before it can do that again.
Links:
List of Most Important Threads
I make logistics videos!
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Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
218
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:That looks suspiciously similar in concept to my 110k Sica fitting.
I have a regen delay, but I also get slightly more HP to play with. Also, what's your movement speed? I think I may have an edge there as well.
No plates to slow me down, I can fit 1 damage amp (so I have a chance to kill tanks), or I can swap it for an LOL booster...not enough CPU for both.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
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BobThe 844-1 CakeMan
Murder Cakes Of Doom
1237
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Luk Manag wrote:We should have a discussion about unkillable tanks. http://i.imgur.com/pOfezYn.jpgI theory crafted this before 1.7 and it is every bit as insane as I thought it would be. It is fun, but the only real infantry counter is high alpha strike damage (read: Remote Explosives). Missile tanks are pretty dangerous to my unhardened armor, but infantry AV has been unable to apply the sustained DPS, and any time I encounter an organized squad, I can just run away. A possible solution might be to increase the clip size of the swarm launcher - let's say 10 or 12 rounds per clip. Thoughts?
y r u using nooby milta armor reps. dude get proto and u can put 2 on for the same deal. i mean i have 300 reps while having a hardener.
it's pretty sick. :D
Tank driver. 10 mil SP in tanks 8 mil into infantry.
Msg my main BobThe843CakeMan
I ring for everyone. :D
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The Attorney General
1616
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:08:00 -
[26] - Quote
Luk Manag wrote:
It just wrecks infantry - it was kind of my point. I was thinking we could get a bit of a boost to swarm clip + ammo if the devs were feeling merciful for xmas.
Why though?
So medium frames can be the do everything suit again?
I suspect that at least part of the motivation for nerfing swarms as they did was to promote people who want to roll AV to go into the fat suit, which is far better suited to engaging a tank than a medium suit.
If that is the case, rolling back the nerf isn't going to happen, nor should it. If anything, buff the PLC, and let people who want to do serious damage to vehicles use that, instead of fire and forget swarms.
As long as swarms lock and track, they should remain low damage weapons. Reward skill instead of gear.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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Argent Mordred
DUST University
Ivy League
47
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:16:00 -
[27] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:
Why though?
So medium frames can be the do everything suit again?
I suspect that at least part of the motivation for nerfing swarms as they did was to promote people who want to roll AV to go into the fat suit, which is far better suited to engaging a tank than a medium suit.
If that is the case, rolling back the nerf isn't going to happen, nor should it. If anything, buff the PLC, and let people who want to do serious damage to vehicles use that, instead of fire and forget swarms.
As long as swarms lock and track, they should remain low damage weapons. Reward skill instead of gear.
Then what is the point of swarms? They aren't good against dropships and are only mediocre against lavs. I am fine with plasma cannons and the other factions' equivalents of it being the anti-tank weapon, but infantry should have some option that at least bloodies the HAV's nose enough that he has to do more than just back into the red line for 5 seconds and then come back if he or she wants to survive. |
Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
218
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:Luk Manag wrote:
It just wrecks infantry - it was kind of my point. I was thinking we could get a bit of a boost to swarm clip + ammo if the devs were feeling merciful for xmas.
Why though? So medium frames can be the do everything suit again? I suspect that at least part of the motivation for nerfing swarms as they did was to promote people who want to roll AV to go into the fat suit, which is far better suited to engaging a tank than a medium suit. If that is the case, rolling back the nerf isn't going to happen, nor should it. If anything, buff the PLC, and let people who want to do serious damage to vehicles use that, instead of fire and forget swarms. As long as swarms lock and track, they should remain low damage weapons. Reward skill instead of gear.
Good point about the skill requirement. The PLC has a 10% weakness vs armor and the re-fire rate is a bit laughable atm - if it did more direct damage or had a multi-shot clip it might be a good option. My best AV fit now is a logi with AV grenades and 3 sets of nanohives - it's also low skill, but it is the highest DPS option I can build.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
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The Attorney General
1616
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
Argent Mordred wrote:
Then what is the point of swarms? They aren't good against dropships and are only mediocre against lavs. I am fine with plasma cannons and the other factions' equivalents of it being the anti-tank weapon, but infantry should have some option that at least bloodies the HAV's nose enough that he has to do more than just back into the red line for 5 seconds and then come back if he or she wants to survive.
Swarms are for scrubs.
They are for people who cannot aim, cannot track, and are not competent enough to handle any other form of AV.
They have always been for scrubs, just now they do damage roughly equal to the skill requirement.
They are still effective for area denial, provided you are not shooting them at a shield tank with its hardeners on.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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The Attorney General
1621
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:20:00 -
[30] - Quote
Luk Manag wrote:
Good point about the skill requirement. The PLC has a 10% weakness vs armor and the re-fire rate is a bit laughable atm - if it did more direct damage or had a multi-shot clip it might be a good option. My best AV fit now is a logi with AV grenades and 3 sets of nanohives - it's also low skill, but it is the highest DPS option I can build.
The PLC is stupid bad right now for what it should be used for.
Hopefully CCP gets the hint eventually.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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BobThe 844-1 CakeMan
Murder Cakes Of Doom
1238
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:35:00 -
[31] - Quote
most possible is 514. 2 comp and 1 enhanced. how ironic?
with a STD blaster. u run out of CPU sadly for one more comp. :D
was 514. i'm pretty sure it was i just logged of so yea. XD. someone want to double check 4 me. with max skills.
Tank driver. 10 mil SP in tanks 8 mil into infantry.
Msg my main BobThe843CakeMan
I ring for everyone. :D
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Argent Mordred
DUST University
Ivy League
47
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:41:00 -
[32] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:
Swarms are for scrubs.
They are for people who cannot aim, cannot track, and are not competent enough to handle any other form of AV.
They have always been for scrubs, just now they do damage roughly equal to the skill requirement.
They are still effective for area denial, provided you are not shooting them at a shield tank with its hardeners on.
Area denial only works as long as the target believes he has reason to be afraid of them. Also maneuvering in close quarters with one to attack a tank can be tricking, long range doesn't take much effort though, I grant you that. However, running away from av attacks from afar shouldn't be hard either, unless you are clueless. It might have been an issue when you couldn't see them, (though not noticing you are taking damage is more of a situational awarness issue) but that has been fixed by making lock on range shorter than render distance. |
Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
220
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:47:00 -
[33] - Quote
Well, the assault AV used to be viable, but now we have to run logistics for all of the Packed AV grenades, REs, PMs, along with the nanohives required to spam them. We'll have the logi slayer and logi AVer as viable class options.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
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Naviticus
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
16
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:54:00 -
[34] - Quote
honestly the biggest problem i see with this entire thread.....Is the name of the tank....Madrugar 134k. Proto swarm fit 100k+, proto forge fit 120k+ Your telling me a abrams tank is cheaper than a suit with some modules?
should start a new thread listing the cost of peoples tank fits vs AV fits |
BobThe 844-1 CakeMan
Murder Cakes Of Doom
1239
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 21:55:00 -
[35] - Quote
Naviticus wrote:honestly the biggest problem i see with this entire thread.....Is the name of the tank....Madrugar 134k. Proto swarm fit 100k+, proto forge fit 120k+ Your telling me a abrams tank is cheaper than a suit with some modules?
should start a new thread listing the cost of peoples tank fits vs AV fits
thts a maddy with all milita mods. a real tank cost 450k +. which is still pretty cheap, but still more than what u just saw. O_o
Tank driver. 10 mil SP in tanks 8 mil into infantry.
Msg my main BobThe843CakeMan
I ring for everyone. :D
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Joseph Ridgeson
warravens
League of Infamy
295
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Posted - 2013.12.12 22:04:00 -
[36] - Quote
Knight Soiaire wrote:That thing is an infantry slayer.
Wait for a hardened HAV to swoop in and ruin your day.
I think that was the point of the re-work, no?
I mean, let's take what my Tank was in Beta:
Blasters, BiS Armor Plate, BiS Repairer, 3 BiS Hardeners, BiS Heat Sink.
Then they nerfed PG and removed Engineering for vehicles, so I went with:
Blasters, BiS Armor Plate, BiS Repairer, 2 BiS Hardeners, BiS Heat Sink, Advanced PG mod.
Regardless of what was out in the field, my slots for my Tanks stayed the same. I may have had a missile Tank for destroying other Madrugars or (as was more often the case) killing enemy Turrets for the points to make it easier when I swapped over to the Blaster. There was not a single difference. Even a Basic Assault Suit has lots of different customization beyond weapon; faster, more armor, more damage, more shields, equipment slots.
Now with the lower number of Slots and finite ammo (not sure how I feel about that), I know actually have Tanks builds beyond the Hardener, Armor, Repairer that stayed forever. It now has vehicles that can be made specifically to kill enemy vehicles or to specifically kill infantry. I actually like that.
Be well.
-Joseph. |
Luk Manag
of Terror
TRE GAFFEL
221
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Posted - 2013.12.12 22:06:00 -
[37] - Quote
Naviticus wrote:honestly the biggest problem i see with this entire thread.....Is the name of the tank....Madrugar 134k. Proto swarm fit 100k+, proto forge fit 120k+ Your telling me a abrams tank is cheaper than a suit with some modules?
should start a new thread listing the cost of peoples tank fits vs AV fits
Yeah, @134k I bought a few hundred and I've only lost a few so far.
In my opinion, CCP could have resolved a lot of the balance issues with any one of these 3 options:
1. buff tank defense/offense
2. nerf AV
3. reduce prices to accommodate high loss rates
instead, CCP went with option 4 - all of the above.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
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