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1.7 AV range change from both sides

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Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 917	Posted - 2013.12.10 00:29:00 - [1] - Quote Does 50 meters look the same to a vehicle as it does to an AV player? You may be surprisedGÇª.. In this short five minute video I show you why the numbers that we use to talk about range, 175 meters for swarms; or 300 meters for a forge vs a dropships 250 meter range just donGÇÖt tell the true story. The numbers are only part of the whole picture......Watch and see.... Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Anmol Singh The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 424	Posted - 2013.12.10 00:37:00 - [2] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Does 50 meters look the same to a vehicle as it does to an AV player? You may be surprisedGÇª.. In this short five minute video I show you why the numbers that we use to talk about range, 175 meters for swarms; or 300 meters for a forge vs a dropships 250 meter range just donGÇÖt tell the true story. The numbers are only part of the whole picture......Watch and see.... have any idea on how to fix this? To me its like this, because the Dropship is much larger, it appears larger on screen of the infantry. Can you make thing so we can see how infantry see infantry at 100m and how dropships see infantry at 100m *Sagaris lover!!!*
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 920	Posted - 2013.12.10 00:42:00 - [3] - Quote So far only the ideas in my swarm and forge fix videos. We need ways to see the threats. They can see us, which I think is right, but it is not balanced that they could be a rock or a bit of dust on the screen to us yet to them we make lots of noise and are huge. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 920	Posted - 2013.12.10 00:44:00 - [4] - Quote Bamm make your forge happy friends watch this... PLEASE. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Anmol Singh The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 424	Posted - 2013.12.10 00:44:00 - [5] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So far only the ideas in my swarm and forge fix videos. We need ways to see the threats. They can see us, which I think is right, but it is not balanced that they could be a rock or a bit of dust on the screen to us yet to them we make lots of noise and are huge. The problem seems to be the 3rd person view on the dropship. Is there anyway you can somehow get footage of a dropship in 1st person looking at infantry at like 50m then infantry looking at infantry. Im guessing they might be similar scale. But then again, the 1st person is pointless for fighting infantry. To fix this, maybe a sensory system might be a great add to the dropship. The dropship beeps when locked on and forge gunners need to be more visible like in one of your videos. The blue charge up light the Fg makes is not enough especially when from that distance and that much visibility you can barley even see it. *Sagaris lover!!!*
Harpyja DUST University Ivy League 886	Posted - 2013.12.10 00:46:00 - [6] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So far only the ideas in my swarm and forge fix videos. We need ways to see the threats. They can see us, which I think is right, but it is not balanced that they could be a rock or a bit of dust on the screen to us yet to them we make lots of noise and are huge. We just need something as simple as a lock-on and locked warnings. Same thing for forge guns when they are charging up. We shouldn't have to take the first hit to know that there's AV. I think it was Mobius who had a great idea for forge guns. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Foundation Seldon Gespenster Kompanie Villore Accords 301	Posted - 2013.12.10 00:47:00 - [7] - Quote I continue to appreciate the content you put out, Judge. Consistently you've challenged the notions of AV and Vehicle users alike to bring to the forefront the current problems faced and the numerous considerations one must take in balancing their interactions. It isn't as easy as strictly looking at the ranges of the weaponry or the damage potential both have available to them and this is something you've always highlighted in your video series. Thanks again for taking the time to continue to produce content. 1.7 LAVs - Thoughts and Discussion
Kane Fyea 2343	Posted - 2013.12.10 00:53:00 - [8] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: So far only the ideas in my swarm and forge fix videos. We need ways to see the threats. They can see us, which I think is right, but it is not balanced that they could be a rock or a bit of dust on the screen to us yet to them we make lots of noise and are huge. We just need something as simple as a lock-on and locked warnings. Same thing for forge guns when they are charging up. We shouldn't have to take the first hit to know that there's AV. I think it was Mobius who had a great idea for forge guns. There shouldn't be a way to know a forge is charging up except for the blue light. I do think the forge light needs to be brighter though when charging. I agree with a lock on countermeasure though (Do it like the BF series does it)
Vitharr Foebane Blood Money Mercenaries 322	Posted - 2013.12.10 00:57:00 - [9] - Quote My only concern is that you talk about FG and SL while completely leaving out the Large Rail(600m range). If the vehicle rendering is fixed they will be a far larger concern than infantry AV. Also if you neuter the FG's range any further then it cant possibly be considered rail tech anymore... How to make a Heavy Laser: 1.Take laser 2.Make it REALLY BIG 3.Give it to the heavy sobbing quietly in the corner.
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 924	Posted - 2013.12.10 00:58:00 - [10] - Quote Anmol Singh wrote: The problem seems to be the 3rd person view on the dropship. Is there anyway you can somehow get footage of a dropship in 1st person looking at infantry at like 50m then infantry looking at infantry. Im guessing they might be similar scale. But then again, the 1st person is pointless for fighting infantry. This is a big issue. A good 1st person is what we need, but we are a long way from it. As you say 1st person is just not useful for ground attacks as it is at the moment. All I hope with this video is for people to consoder that the numbers of the weapons range just do not tell the full story. I think the comparison between a forge pointing at a dropship 132 meters away and a dropship looking at an infantry player 88 meters away says it all. It is not a fair fight as it stands today. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight

Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 925	Posted - 2013.12.10 01:01:00 - [11] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: My only concern is that you talk about FG and SL while completely leaving out the Large Rail(600m range). If the vehicle rendering is fixed they will be a far larger concern than infantry AV. Also if you neuter the FG's range any further then it cant possibly be considered rail tech anymore... The issue with the rail tank is the redline. It's not the tank that is the problem. If I could go get it, as would be fair seeing as it can get me, then there would be no problem. It is not the damage of the gun, or the tank of the tank but the broken shooting while unreachable that is the issue. So I am leaving rails out of it. They are not a range issue but a redline one, and when i look into redline solutions thats when you will hear me talk about them. EDIT : Judge is going to Bed for 8 hours from the time of this post. Apologies for any delayed replies. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
21yrOld Knight Pradox One Proficiency V. 378	Posted - 2013.12.10 01:01:00 - [12] - Quote Wow.
Anmol Singh The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 424	Posted - 2013.12.10 01:02:00 - [13] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: The problem seems to be the 3rd person view on the dropship. Is there anyway you can somehow get footage of a dropship in 1st person looking at infantry at like 50m then infantry looking at infantry. Im guessing they might be similar scale. But then again, the 1st person is pointless for fighting infantry. This is a big issue. A good 1st person is what we need, but we are a long way from it. As you say 1st person is just not useful for ground attacks as it is at the moment. All I hope with this video is for people to consoder that the numbers of the weapons range just do not tell the full story. I think the comparison between a forge pointing at a dropship 132 meters away and a dropship looking at an infantry player 88 meters away says it all. It is not a fair fight as it stands today. I have another idea: what if there was a zoom button on the dropship, while holding down the button, your dropship 3rd person view would zoom on your crosshairs. *Sagaris lover!!!*
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 925	Posted - 2013.12.10 01:05:00 - [14] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: I continue to appreciate the content you put out, Judge. Consistently you've challenged the notions of AV and Vehicle users alike to bring to the forefront the current problems faced and the numerous considerations one must take in balancing their interactions. It isn't as easy as strictly looking at the ranges of the weaponry or the damage potential both have available to them and this is something you've always highlighted in your video series. Thanks again for taking the time to continue to produce content. Those are kind words indeed. Thank you. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Guiltless D667 DIOS EX. 15	Posted - 2013.12.10 01:11:00 - [15] - Quote The dropships thirdperson camera is placeed way behind the dropship, of course troops are going to look smaller from the dropships perspective compard to what the troops sees at the same distance. how does the first person camera view on dropships fair? Need a medic for your heavies in PC?
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 1926	Posted - 2013.12.10 01:20:00 - [16] - Quote Erm yeah using the 3rd person view is like adding 20 visual meters because the camera is located BEHIND the dropship. And of course you are looking bigger to the forgegunner cause you are obviously bigger then the forgegunner itself. Hell you probs have like 20 times the mass of a regular infantry player (or more) while using a dropship. Its a rather large vehicle after all so its obvious that a infantry player can hit a dropship easier then a dropship can hit the infantry player. If you would use the 1st person view then there is allmost no difference but on the other hand you cant aim at all with the 1st persoon view on a dropship. In my opinion there should be a ADS function for dropships which stabilises them and allows you to directly controll the front turret and as soon you release the button you have your usual dropship controll schematic. Like Press R3 and you enter the "autopilot" where you hover over the area and controll the turret. I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun
Vell0cet SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 678	Posted - 2013.12.10 01:22:00 - [17] - Quote I love your content Judge. I do wonder if vehicles should have an even playing field against AV though. Shouldn't every other infantry be the primary counter to AV, the AV is the primary counter to vehicles and vehicles the primary counter to all non-AV infantry (paper-rock-scissors and all that jazz)? If dropships are invulnerable to everything except AV and Vehicles (and lamp posts) but are also excellent at killing Vehicles and AV, then where's the balance? This isn't an accusation, merely a question for rational discussion/debate. Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 4030	Posted - 2013.12.10 01:22:00 - [18] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Does 50 meters look the same to a vehicle as it does to an AV player? You may be surprisedGÇª.. In this short five minute video I show you why the numbers that we use to talk about range, 175 meters for swarms; or 300 meters for a forge vs a dropships 250 meter range just donGÇÖt tell the true story. The numbers are only part of the whole picture......Watch and see.... Good point to make. I think that's a factor not often considered. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 8573	Posted - 2013.12.10 01:25:00 - [19] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I love your content Judge. I do wonder if vehicles should have an even playing field against AV though. Shouldn't every other infantry be the primary counter to AV, the AV is the primary counter to vehicles and vehicles the primary counter to all non-AV infantry (paper-rock-scissors and all that jazz)? If dropships are invulnerable to everything except AV and Vehicles (and lamp posts) but are also excellent at killing Vehicles and AV, then where's the balance? This isn't an accusation, merely a question for rational discussion/debate. They do really have to be careful with how they adjust dropships, because even though we've been in the shitter for so long, it wouldn't take an awful lot to make us OP. I think just balancing the weapons themselves, increasing the light up on forges, and fixing rendering issues on infantry, forge light, and swarms would go a very long way towards balancing everything out. And as I suggested in this thread, extend the red line range when you're flying, so that dropships can harass redline railtanks while still keeping the redline safe from infantry and ground vehicles. Win ISK / Vids / O7
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 2220	Posted - 2013.12.10 01:27:00 - [20] - Quote You should work for National Geographic Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.

Foxhound Elite The Rainbow Effect 574	Posted - 2013.12.10 01:40:00 - [21] - Quote Judge; bringing the hard, cold facts to the discussion table. Hopefully 1.7, we'll have it easier. Lead on dear boy, lead on. Python pilot, troop-transport specialist and an all-round ballbag.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5754	Posted - 2013.12.10 01:43:00 - [22] - Quote I love the constructive and well-thought out observations you make in your videos. Even though I am not a vehicle player at all (no SP in vehicles) I can see the problems. However, I do have some SP in swarms. Perhaps from a non-vehicle but AV perspective I might be able to provide a suggestion that can help dropship pilots. First off, I can clearly see that the third-person camera view of the dropship is creating this issue for the dropship pilots. Naturally one would say "use the ADS" but I remember flying militia dropships long ago and the ADS view is utter crap. As my suggestion, perhaps CCP can borrow a page from the Microsoft Flight Simulator series. Off topic: Lockheed Martin now owns the rights and source code to FS as well as the original ACES STUDIO team. Back on topic: Take a look at this video and notice how the pilot's head moves independently from the body of the helicopter. Ok, ignore the handling of the copter and just focus on the camera movements. If the controls of the dropship can be adjusted or at least freely customized to allow for this kind of camera movement in ADS mode without adversely affecting the handling of the dropship, this might help address the issue of the current ADS and thus make it easier to shoot at infantry. What do you think? OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
Taurion Bruni D3M3NT3D M1NDZ The Umbra Combine 206	Posted - 2013.12.10 02:00:00 - [23] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Does 50 meters look the same to a vehicle as it does to an AV player? You may be surprisedGÇª.. In this short five minute video I show you why the numbers that we use to talk about range, 175 meters for swarms; or 300 meters for a forge vs a dropships 250 meter range just donGÇÖt tell the true story. The numbers are only part of the whole picture......Watch and see.... it seems to relate to the sniper & assault. the sniper can see you, but you don't know they exist until they take a shot at you. they have incredible zoom so 50m away seems close. the sniper, however seems to be useless at close range. perhaps we just need to force av weapons to work within an optimal range, so that they do less damage the further they are away from optimal (make it about 100m) but when we get into our optimal range, the weapons become less of a threat (perhaps a minimum distance to lock on) Pilot // Logistics
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 8587	Posted - 2013.12.10 02:02:00 - [24] - Quote Taurion Bruni wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Does 50 meters look the same to a vehicle as it does to an AV player? You may be surprisedGÇª.. In this short five minute video I show you why the numbers that we use to talk about range, 175 meters for swarms; or 300 meters for a forge vs a dropships 250 meter range just donGÇÖt tell the true story. The numbers are only part of the whole picture......Watch and see.... it seems to relate to the sniper & assault. the sniper can see you, but you don't know they exist until they take a shot at you. they have incredible zoom so 50m away seems close. the sniper, however seems to be useless at close range. perhaps we just need to force av weapons to work within an optimal range, so that they do less damage the further they are away from optimal (make it about 100m) but when we get into our optimal range, the weapons become less of a threat (perhaps a minimum distance to lock on) Forge guns have needed damage decay over distance for forever :/ Win ISK / Vids / O7
Vitharr Foebane Blood Money Mercenaries 325	Posted - 2013.12.10 02:16:00 - [25] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Taurion Bruni wrote: Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Does 50 meters look the same to a vehicle as it does to an AV player? You may be surprisedGÇª.. In this short five minute video I show you why the numbers that we use to talk about range, 175 meters for swarms; or 300 meters for a forge vs a dropships 250 meter range just donGÇÖt tell the true story. The numbers are only part of the whole picture......Watch and see.... it seems to relate to the sniper & assault. the sniper can see you, but you don't know they exist until they take a shot at you. they have incredible zoom so 50m away seems close. the sniper, however seems to be useless at close range. perhaps we just need to force av weapons to work within an optimal range, so that they do less damage the further they are away from optimal (make it about 100m) but when we get into our optimal range, the weapons become less of a threat (perhaps a minimum distance to lock on) Forge guns have needed damage decay over distance for forever :/ In that case ALL rail tech should get decay over distance to include sniper rifles and rail turrets. Nerf all of nerf none How to make a Heavy Laser: 1.Take laser 2.Make it REALLY BIG 3.Give it to the heavy sobbing quietly in the corner.
Broonfondle Majikthies Bannana Boat Corp Relentless Heroes Alliance 575	Posted - 2013.12.10 02:37:00 - [26] - Quote I made a suggestion for the pilot suit (as well as the scout) to be able to cycle tactical views to make their suits unique. These views can be used to highlight certain weapons within line of sight and range, with the downside that normal infantry and other forms of AV are not visible simultaneously. For instance a view designed to highlight the EMP from the forges charge (or general rail tech) and a view to highlight the weapon lock on signiture / guidance of swarms (as well as maybe a heat vision for weapon discharges for scouts - but not part of this topic) "...where Bylothgar the Ill-postured was made King of the People With No Name But Decent Footwear"
castba Penguin's March 235	Posted - 2013.12.10 03:29:00 - [27] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: Does 50 meters look the same to a vehicle as it does to an AV player? You may be surprisedGÇª.. In this short five minute video I show you why the numbers that we use to talk about range, 175 meters for swarms; or 300 meters for a forge vs a dropships 250 meter range just donGÇÖt tell the true story. The numbers are only part of the whole picture......Watch and see.... May I suggest comparing how infantry look to a forger from the top of a spire and then how they look at that same distance to a dropship? The reason that the forger had a larger target is all due to angle. It will be interesting to see if DS turrets are more accurate and effective after the 1.7 changes. I Support SP Rollover
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 820	Posted - 2013.12.10 03:57:00 - [28] - Quote I would like to say a few words. I do not debate anything I have seen in your videos so far. I do however feel that you have left some things out. I am a swarm launcher user, and I have only solo'd 5 ADS in all of Uprising, all of which due to pilots being overconfident and/or reckless. Most shield ADS fits I've run into would take 3-4 of my prof. 5 swarms to kill if they activate their reppers after getting hit by the first one. However they always take off and out run my swarms instead. ADS is only barely solo-able as it is RIGHT NOW with swarm launchers, and that's IF they stick around to try to fight you instead of jetting off at the first sign of AV. (By saying this I in no way mean to infer that they should be solo-able, just mentioning it because of how common soloing other vehicles is) Of course this all goes out the window when you bring in forge guns, but on the topic of swarms alone, I feel that this should be noted. You don't see people going around soloing ADS's with swarms. If a swarm kills an ADS, it's because either A) He had help B) The DS was injured when the swarmer came upon it C) The pilot was reckless/careless/overconfident. The upcoming range cut (which was needed, though I'm on the fence about how I feel on the actual size of the cut) doesn't quite effect things in the way your video portrays. You leave out elevation entirely in that video. In your supposed scenario, that guy in the redline is on much lower elevation that the objective B or objective C. The range of the swarm is a spherical bubble around the player, which means the furthest range he can fire in any direction (N/S/E/W and all the in-betweens) is in a straight horizontal line from the player. Deviate even slightly up or down and the distance in that direction lessens. So if the player you have marked in the redline in that swarm video of yours video was on even terrain with objective B, and if the spires at and near objective A weren't in the way, and the DS was sitting on the road in the middle of I7 on your map at the edge of your range circle.... then yes, a swarm could theoretically lock on to a DS from that far out. At realistic flight heights however of around 20-30m above the ground, aiming in that same direction towards that same DS, with the player in that very low elevation area, that line would be cut back to around the map line between G7 and H7. To summarize that, your video makes it look as though swarm locking range is cylindrical around them, when it is in fact spherical. This makes a huge difference on what you can lock onto as opposed to what you cannot. I hope you don't think I am nit-picking at this, this is just a huge oversight that really bothered me because no one ever mentions it. Lastly, it isn't only ADS's that can outrun swarms. I have LITERALLY SEEN TANKS that can out run my swarms. This is ridiculous. 2 times in the last month I have come across these things. You throw an AV grenade and they start moving, and by the time you have a swarm off they are moving fast enough to stay ahead of your swarms until the swarms disappear. I feel that if the lock range and damage of our weapon is to be cut (clip size was already cut down to 3), the least we can get in return is a speed increase to our missiles. We'll have to be over 2x as close to even attempt a lock, and vehicles will have to move less than half the distance to prevent us from locking on with a second volley. The least we can get is an assurance that if we DO get a volley off, that only the most nimble of pilots or most speed oriented ships can avoid them. Especially since we are now out ranged by all missile turrets, ans their missiles are WAAAAY faster than ours. MINMATAR ARISE! DEMAND that our race's suits be FIXED!!! *WE WILL NOT GIVE IN!!* MATARI PRIDE!! FIX TTK!!
Exmaple Core D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1629	Posted - 2013.12.10 04:25:00 - [29] - Quote At Baal, no you havent, you saw something else because it is literally impossible for tanks to outrun swarms, you can only put on one speed boosting mod per vehicle, any vehicle period. Ive seen The Legend's tank use this and still couldent outrun swarms (an armor tank is somehow the faster tank, so gunlogi cant ethire). So throw up a video of the impossible if serious, because you saw one thing and i saw the other. On a thread were the OP has video proof and we both have only words, you need videos to prove your statements! Also, i dont think geometry has anything to do with 50m distance being more efficient for AV than it is vehicles. Wethire the swarmers lock on in rectangles or circles the dropship and sometimes tanks wont see the SL so the SL can just lock on when hes able too. Which is pretty much 100% of the time as long as stuff arnt in the way. And besides, if rectangles and squares are really that important, just pick up a forge gun? It can one shot the best dropships if you use breach
Ivy Zalinto Bobbit's Hangmen 139	Posted - 2013.12.10 04:58:00 - [30] - Quote How about a module that highlights the signal of forge gun circuity for vehicles with a box and around them and the word threat inside it... Dedicated scout. Player bodyguard Scrambler Pistol User



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