((The Amarr have always been against cloning, because they believe it damns the soul. The royal family is forbidden to be cloned, and, whenever succession trials occur to determine a new emperor, the losing heirs all comit suicide.

Sarum was cloned, but with the circumstances being very murky, and the 'divine powers' she seemed to demonstrate upon her return meant faithful Amarr overlooked the obvious means of her return in favor of divine intervention. To her credit, she is far more competent and rational than many of her predecessors, though she IS an athiest, and slightly mad thanks to the 'other' in her head.

Thats the actual lore behind the second question. Donno if you just wanted in character answers))

((The Amarr have always been against cloning, because they believe it damns the soul. The royal family is forbidden to be cloned, and, whenever succession trials occur to determine a new emperor, the losing heirs all comit suicide.

Sarum was cloned, but with the circumstances being very murky, and the 'divine powers' she seemed to demonstrate upon her return meant faithful Amarr overlooked the obvious means of her return in favor of divine intervention. To her credit, she is far more competent and rational than many of her predecessors, though she IS an athiest, and slightly mad thanks to the 'other' in her head.

Thats the actual lore behind the second question. Donno if you just wanted in character answers))

And how do we get reborn? Science. Has nothing to do with a soul, at all. I wish I shared your optimistic vision, Denak.

No one has a soul. Not immortal mercs, not capsuleers, not the pious monks of the Amarr, not the regular people. Consciousness/mind is all there is, and its basically a process generated by the brain through natural means. Once your brain is destroyed, the process of "mind" ceases, but if you can recreate the brain of a person (through cloning and neural shaping) then you can make it start performing the action known as "mind" or "consciousness" again. Identical brains generate identical minds.
If I were to guess how our immortality implants work, I would say it works by transmitting the state/structure of our brain to a new brain after death, and the state/structure of the new brain is molded by the implant to be that of the destroyed one. If the brains are the same, then they will generate the same mind.

The physical parts are not important, it is the actions they perform and the information they store that matter. I suppose one could count the actions and information as a soul, but I would not.

That's a dark and ultimately hopeless way to live, I do pity you greatly.

That's a dark and ultimately hopeless way to live, I do pity you greatly.

I have two soles one in each boot. So in that case yes.

That's a dark and ultimately hopeless way to live, I do pity you greatly.

I do believe that there is more to a man than what you can physically measure and prove exist, and that the soul is eternal even beyond death. But everyone has their own views of the soul, and if they are certain of that belief, and are happy with it, who are we to argue how their life is?

You can phrase BS in the most poetic way, and sprinkle flower petals upon the words, but its still BS. Neither you (nor True Adamance) have yet to provide compelling arguments to the support of the existence of a soul.
Simply accepting everyone has different views may sound nice and all, but that just means reason and facts get placed on equal footing as fairy-tale, no intellectual progress can be made if we just all agree to disagree.
Who are we to not argue? we're intelligent complex organisms, and the only ones capable of pondering these things as far as I know. It would be a waste of our minds to not tackle these things. It is our right as human beings to question.

If you believe it is BS, then you believe it is BS, what's your point? Make intellectual progress all you want, question the soul all you want, downplay my beliefs all you want, it's not going to affect me. I'm not trying to force you, or convince you or convert you to think how I think, nor do I plan to do so for anyone else. I'm not going to threaten you with eternal damnation if you don't do as I do. Me believing in what you say are fairy-tales does not affect you, nor should it

I was originally here to state my views on the subject as the original poster asked, not argue if it is true or not so I'll leave it at that.

Bah! humbug!
That's intellectual laziness, I want to fight *pulls out Gallente research papers on the subject of consciousness and slaps you with them*. Duel me you coward! poke holes in my logic.
I'll need people to argue with the help fill up eternity, eternity is very very very long.

Bah! humbug!
That's intellectual laziness, I want to fight *pulls out Gallente research papers on the subject of consciousness and slaps you with them*. Duel me you coward! poke holes in my logic.
I'll need people to argue with the help fill up eternity, eternity is very very very long.

As you wish.

The "fight" you seek is a pointless one. Religious faith is precisely that: belief without proof, or need of proof. Asking for an intellectual battle pitting such belief against scientific research is both meaningless and cruel-- you are putting up your understanding of the temporal world against their belief in a separate, spiritual one. However much you may learn about this world, it does not bear in any absolute way on their beliefs. You can no more disprove the truth of their beliefs than they can prove their truth without all concerned permanently killing yourselves and discussing what you find (which would hopefully resolve the discussion, although if your beliefs and mine are correct, such a discussion would be difficult).

Faith has value, Mr. Horned Wolf. While I am not so naiive as to identify your sort of belief with theirs, you will not be able either to devalue or debunk their faiths from an outside perspective, any more than they can prove themselves right in this life. A more fruitful discussion might be to ask them how they interpret scientific insight, or certain seemingly inconsistent aspects of their own faiths, in light of their spiritual beliefs, and then discuss that within the believers' own frames of reference.

Also, regardless of whether Mr. Kalamari's beliefs are literally correct, there is value in them, just as there is value in the Amarrian faith and in Achur teachings on gods and other spiritual beings, including an afterlife. Not all truth is literal, and some literal truth is not even helpful (for example, the stars will not care if you murder your brother). There is much wisdom to be found in any ancient faith-- there must be, for it to have survived for so long. And then there are the practical aspects.

The Amarrian god is the basis for a great society-- arguably the most powerful, and certainly the oldest, of New Eden's civilizations, barring the Jove. Even if that deity does not exist, belief in him has great utility.

The Intaki Idamas, if i understand their nature correctly, are literally real, created through a technological process similar to cloning. Whether this grants them the full wisdom with which they seem to be credited is perhaps open to question, but it is at the very least a fascinating approach to reincarnation. Even an atheist such as yourself may some day want to partly let go of the person you are now, and influence, rather than directly proceed into being and controlling, your future self. Would it not be interesting to add a perspective to your consciousness that is not entirely your own?

Now, being as my own faith actively embraces scientific insight as an aspect of our approach to exploring this reality, and therefore is subject to reasoned argument from a perspective of unbelief, perhaps you would find it more useful to discuss and debate that, rather than harass the spiritually faithful? You might actually make some progress, and they'd probably appreciate the peace.

Intaki religion aside (which is actually kind of cool). There is no inherent value in believing without reason. If I told you 2+2 equals 5 because of an invisible 1 added by the god of math, what value is there in believing me? The human mind is great thing, something not to be polluted and infected. If you were so foolish as to believe my lie, would it be wrong for others to tell your faith is foolish? I think not.

Value in Amarrian faith? have you not seen how much damage it has done? how many billions enslaved and killed because of the faith of this "great society"? How can you actually tell me there is value in such an evil? Their religion fails even as a moral compass.

Morality existed long before men invented gods, empathy is the basis for morality, even without empathy the threat of the law is a deterrent against behaviors harmful to group. Morality is not dependent on faith, nor should it be; people should do what is right because it is right, not because some stars frown upon their actions. As with the Amarr faith, belief without reason can be the antithesis of morality, a compass guiding men to evil.

I think you purposely tried to arouse anger from me with your comment on the and "greatness" Amarr, and the "value" of their faith; had the astropoltical scene been different, it would have been the Caldari who were enslaved by them, I would love to hear your opinions of their fate as you writhe in pain on the floor and die painfully because of the Vitoc you've been injected with by your master. One day I will see to it that the Amarr Empire burns for all its crimes, even if it takes me a thousand years.

You make Faith sound so unreasonable and separate from the world we live in.

It is not. It is tied to my physicality. It does not warp what I see, think, feel, merely shapes and guides those things.

You shape you own opinions of your cultural biases to condemn mine. You lack the very scientific practicality, and impartial nature you try to endorse. If indeed you were championing it in any meaningful way you would spend your time trying to understand not decry the cultures of others.

If you are telling me that you feel the deaths during the rebellions and subsequent years of Low Sec conflict are entirely the fault of Amarrians you must be reminded that the Amarr did not start the rebellions, your people did.

Morality existed long before men invented gods, empathy is the basis for morality, even without empathy the threat of the law is a deterrent against behaviors harmful to group. Morality is not dependent on faith, nor should it be; people should do what is right because it is right, not because some stars frown upon their actions. As with the Amarr faith, belief without reason can be the antithesis of morality, a compass guiding men to evil.

I think you purposely tried to arouse anger from me with your comment on the and "greatness" Amarr, and the "value" of their faith; had the astropoltical scene been different, it would have been the Caldari who were enslaved by them, I would love to hear your opinions of their faith as you writhe in pain on the floor and die painfully because of the Vitoc you've been injected with by your master. One day I will see to it that the Amarr Empire burns for all its crimes, even if it takes me a thousand years.