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Yun Hee Ryeon
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
376
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Posted - 2013.12.11 13:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
If the soul is a separate, immortal spirit-self, then we do not have such a thing. This is all right; neither does anyone. In this, the atheist is correct.
If the soul is the guiding spark, coterminous with the ego, that pilots our biological frames, that insists that we are "ourselves," and real, and separate from all else in this reality (and therefore lies for the sake of our survival), that, in our case, passes from body to body like a contagion (and generally proves fatal to each in turn), then yes, we have souls. They are mortal. They will dissolve back into the Totality upon our permanent deaths. There is little sad in this: we were never really apart from it to begin with.
If the soul is the record of a life engraved upon the flow of time, deeds done, effects caused, lives touched, experiences enjoyed or suffered, then we do have souls, and they will exist for as long as time does. The past is merely another place, albeit lying in a direction we find difficult to travel.
Please note that not all Achura will say these things; my own Shuijing ("Jewel Crystal") sect is unusual in certain ways. |
Yun Hee Ryeon
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
376
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 18:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Denak Kalamari wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:You can phrase BS in the most poetic way, and sprinkle flower petals upon the words, but its still BS. Neither you (nor True Adamance) have yet to provide compelling arguments to the support of the existence of a soul.
Simply accepting everyone has different views may sound nice and all, but that just means reason and facts get placed on equal footing as fairy-tale, no intellectual progress can be made if we just all agree to disagree.
Who are we to not argue? we're intelligent complex organisms, and the only ones capable of pondering these things as far as I know. It would be a waste of our minds to not tackle these things. It is our right as human beings to question. If you believe it is BS, then you believe it is BS, what's your point? Make intellectual progress all you want, question the soul all you want, downplay my beliefs all you want, it's not going to affect me. I'm not trying to force you, or convince you or convert you to think how I think, nor do I plan to do so for anyone else. I'm not going to threaten you with eternal damnation if you don't do as I do. Me believing in what you say are fairy-tales does not affect you, nor should it I was originally here to state my views on the subject as the original poster asked, not argue if it is true or not so I'll leave it at that. Bah! humbug! That's intellectual laziness, I want to fight *pulls out Gallente research papers on the subject of consciousness and slaps you with them*. Duel me you coward! poke holes in my logic. I'll need people to argue with the help fill up eternity, eternity is very very very long.
As you wish.
The "fight" you seek is a pointless one. Religious faith is precisely that: belief without proof, or need of proof. Asking for an intellectual battle pitting such belief against scientific research is both meaningless and cruel-- you are putting up your understanding of the temporal world against their belief in a separate, spiritual one. However much you may learn about this world, it does not bear in any absolute way on their beliefs. You can no more disprove the truth of their beliefs than they can prove their truth without all concerned permanently killing yourselves and discussing what you find (which would hopefully resolve the discussion, although if your beliefs and mine are correct, such a discussion would be difficult).
Faith has value, Mr. Horned Wolf. While I am not so naiive as to identify your sort of belief with theirs, you will not be able either to devalue or debunk their faiths from an outside perspective, any more than they can prove themselves right in this life. A more fruitful discussion might be to ask them how they interpret scientific insight, or certain seemingly inconsistent aspects of their own faiths, in light of their spiritual beliefs, and then discuss that within the believers' own frames of reference.
Also, regardless of whether Mr. Kalamari's beliefs are literally correct, there is value of them, just as there is value in the Amarrian faith and in Achur teachings on gods and other spiritual beings, including an afterlife. Not all truth is literal, or even helpful. There is much wisdom to be found in any ancient faith-- there must be, for it to have survived for so long. And then there are the practical aspects.
The Amarrian god is the basis for a great society-- arguably the most powerful, and certainly the oldest, of New Eden's civilizations, barring the Jove. Even if that deity does not exist, belief in him has great utility.
The Intaki Idamas, if i understand their nature correctly, are literally real, created through a technological process similar to cloning. Whether this grants them the full wisdom with which they seem to be credited is perhaps open to question, but it is at the very least a fascinating approach to reincarnation. Even an atheist such as yourself may some day want to partly let go of the person you are now, and influence, rather than directly proceed into being and controlling, your future self. Would it not be interesting to add a perspective to your consciousness that is not entirely your own?
Now, being as my own faith actively embraces scientific insight as an aspect of our approach to exploring this reality, and therefore is subject to reasoned argument from a perspective of unbelief, perhaps you would find it more useful to discuss and debate that, rather than harass the spiritually faithful? You might actually make some progress, and they'd probably appreciate the peace. |
Yun Hee Ryeon
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
378
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 06:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Morality existed long before men invented gods, empathy is the basis for morality, even without empathy the threat of the law is a deterrent against behaviors harmful to group. Morality is not dependent on faith, nor should it be; people should do what is right because it is right, not because some stars frown upon their actions. As with the Amarr faith, belief without reason can be the antithesis of morality, a compass guiding men to evil.
You may not want to lean too heavily on that biological morality; it's well-designed only for humans living in small villages. Not only that, but those who are more highly placed generally feel little empathy for those "beneath" them.
It's entertaining to hear you carrying on about empathy, Mr. Horned Wolf. Weren't you the one who was trying to get together a group to engage in mass slaughter of civilians not so long ago? ... But then, you illustrate my point.
A human is a rather nasty animal, if you're not part of its little circle of concern. I'd even suggest that human "instinctive" morality is a mediocre guide to right and wrong.
Of course, if you're content to just be a clever animal with a sharpened stick and forego such toys as holoflicks and Sleeper implants, perhaps that's enough, but I hope you will excuse me if I do not take the human animal for a highly-qualified moral guide.
Quote:I think you purposely tried to arouse anger from me with your comment on the and "greatness" Amarr, and the "value" of their faith; had the astropoltical scene been different, it would have been the Caldari who were enslaved by them, I would love to hear your opinions of their faith as you writhe in pain on the floor and die painfully because of the Vitoc you've been injected with by your master. One day I will see to it that the Amarr Empire burns for all its crimes, even if it takes me a thousand years.
Mm. I didn't actually aim for any particular reaction. I'm pleased with the one I've gotten, however.
I'm familiar with Vitoc. It's rather nasty stuff, though I know of other forms of control I consider worse (TCMC's, Nation implants-- techniques that more or less directly bind the mind, rather than the body). What my opinions might be on the topic if I'd been injected with it, I can really only speculate on; probably, I'd be at least acting like a good little god-fearing slave, because that's generally what one does under those circumstances if one wishes to survive.
Maybe I'd hate the Amarr. Maybe I'd be more forgiving; I don't really know.
I do know that while I sympathize with your people's plight, it's not at all my own. We're busy fighting a different pack of cultural imperialists. It doesn't really matter to me what tools are used to murder my culture and faith; if they die, whether it was Vitoc or holoflicks that did them in will be irrelevant.
The Amarr may get their turn, but, unless and until they try something, their involvement maintains the balance of power-- and keeps the military advantage on our own side in the event that the war goes hot.
As for your ... forgive me, but very shallow understanding of faith:
There are places where faiths sometimes say that two and two equal five. In those places, the faith may still have utility, but ... probably quite a bit less, since it is departing from observable reality. Most of faith's focus, however, tends to be on the unobservable, extra-temporal, and (to the thoughtful, open-minded, and not especially vengeance-driven) not obviously wrong.
I do not believe in spirits, but I cannot say for certain that they do not exist. (If they did, they would merely be fragments of the Totality, just like me. The same goes for gods, or even God, on the off chance He exists, so I'm not too bothered about whether they're real or not.) Despite your claims to the contrary, however, I can be pretty sure that you are not a hyperintelligent wizard fedo, if for no other reason then because this board is for nominally human clone soldiers and most of your grievances don't seem especially fedo-ish.
You're about as human as the Amarr, I'd even say.
Ah! There I go again. Do you suppose I'm trying to provoke anger, or thought?
Oh, while I'm at it, here's another fun aspect of human wiring: we're built to seek vengeance, but not to enjoy it once it's acquired. Most "successful" vengeance-seekers will insist otherwise, of course. Isn't it funny how good people are at lying to themselves? |
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