The role system is working fine its just nearly all dust pkayers are horrificly bad at this game, all suits fullfill their roles perfectly. But not all players are suited to the roles there trying to fill.

I.e assults that should really be heavys and vice versa. That said i do think the system could be improved but u cant blame ccp for players thinking logi suits make better assults, cuz they dont and never did. Its just noone new how to get the most out of an assult :-(

The role system is working fine its just nearly all dust pkayers are horrificly bad at this game, all suits fullfill their roles perfectly. But not all players are suited to the roles there trying to fill.

I.e assults that should really be heavys and vice versa. That said i do think the system could be improved but u cant blame ccp for players thinking logi suits make better assults, cuz they dont and never did. Its just noone new how to get the most out of an assult :-(

The role system is working fine its just nearly all dust pkayers are horrificly bad at this game, all suits fullfill their roles perfectly. But not all players are suited to the roles there trying to fill.

I.e assults that should really be heavys and vice versa. That said i do think the system could be improved but u cant blame ccp for players thinking logi suits make better assults, cuz they dont and never did. Its just noone new how to get the most out of an assult :-(

I feel like the logi slayers will attack this thread like hungry hounds defending their meal called "Slayer Logi".

I beg to differ; In eve there are more than triple the amount of weapons in dust. This mechanic has functioned to outline roles while not constricting you to them

Sidearm = small
Light = Medium
Heavy = Large

And that's where different roles come in.
You could have a scout suit that is dedicated to using stuff like nova knives and pistols.

What's a scout's role in PC again? Is everyone happy with heavies restricted to camping? Should assaults just be a slayer in an FPS where we're all slayers? Why should logistics use proto equipment when they gain the same WP/m as any other tier? Is logistics really that needed when every weapon has the range to warrant lone wolfing?

I feel like the logi slayers will attack this thread like hungry hounds defending their meal called "Slayer Logi".

Hello,

{snip}

Before I get into the details of what should be done in dust, let me first explain how CCP manages the problem of roles in EvE online. In eve online there are different sizes of ships frigate, cruiser, battleship etc. Each size vessel has a bonus towards it's size of weaponry. So for example a battleship may have bonuses to large turrets but not be limited to only using these. Therefore you can equip the ship with small turrets but these will be less efficient on the ship than the large turrets would be. Aside from the fact the the large turrets deal more damage small turrets are not meant to be on that Battleship hence the small turrets will deal less damage on the battleship than they would if they where on a frigate. But the balancing of roles does not stop there. When a ship is meant, let's say, to be a logistics ship, apart from having hardpoints for equipping turrets reduced, these ships have no bonuses to weapons. You can put all the medium weapons you want on a logistics ship up to it's maximum allowed but these will never function as good as if they where in a heavy assault cruiser.

So where am I getting at? Well CCP obviously has intended roles for suits. A logistics suit should be a logistics suit, an assault suit should assault etc, etc. Therefore let's put this Hypothetical scenario out there; this is what I want you to debate. Lets say CCP reduces all weapon damage by say 20%. In turn they give the assault suits a bonus of 5% to medium weapon damage per level while the Logistics suit gets bonuses to repair tool efficiency or distance. The scouts get a similar bonus to sidearms or light weaponry (let the scouts decide this point) and the heavy gets the same bonus to the heavy weapon.

So what does this do in the end. Well for starters this will ensure that a logi can never deal as much damage as an assault while still maintaining it's light weapon slot; A heavy with a Duvolle will never be as scary as a heavy with an HMG and the assault will be recognized for it's intended role as being a slayer.

This would completely contribute to how roles are played.

NOTE: Each suit can have a role bonus and a racial bonus. Understand the difference and then recognize that I'm only referring to the role bonuses in this post.

I've been playing EVE online for ten years now... I have to agree with you. However the ways that people are suggesting to fix this problem is wrong in most posts on these forums. What needs to be fixed are the ROLE bonuses for each of the class of suits.

As you said, battleships receive a bonus to damage, range, tracking, etc to battleship sized weapons in EVE. You can still fit small weapons, to them if you like, but they would end up doing less damage from a battleship than if that same small weapon was used by a frigate that received bonuses to use that smaller weapon. And you cannot fit a large weapon system on a smaller ship due to PG and CPU fitting issues 9kinda like how only Heavies can use Heavy weapons).

So equivalently in DUST an assault suit should get an inherent damage, range, recoil, or accuracy bonus for using light class weapons. Then a heavy could still fit a light class weapons, but they would be significantly less effective with it than a assault suit would be. Similarly, only heavies can fit the heavy weapons, so that's where they should get a role bonus.

So any suit can equp a nanite injector or an armor repair tool, but logi-suits should get a role bonus to use them. Like making it possible for a level five proto logi using level five nanite injector capable of reviving a downed player with full armor, but if an assault uses the same nanite injector they only bring the guy back with half armor. Similarly, give a range bonus for logis to use the armor repair tool. Now if a logi tries to go toe to toe with an assault and they are both using the same weapon that the assault suit gets a role bonus to use, the logi ends up dead.

Scouts need to get a small enough signature to be undetectable to normal scanning, yet receive a bonus to do scanning so that they are the only ones able to detect other scouts using that same scanner.

Commandoes should be the only time that you see a heavy trying to use light weapons. And as such should be the ones to possibly get a role bonus for using them similar (but not the same as) an assault suit.

CCP devs have always had a history of not getting how to properly set roles for their stuff in games. Only in the last year of EVE online did they finally get someone like CCP Fozzie who was able to rebalance and reset most of the ship roles in the game and actually made them ALL useful now (out of the ones that have been rebalanced as they are still not finished). This is basically the same problem we are facing now in DUST only because FPS community is WAY faster, the problem was reached sooner as well.

End of story, fix the roles to match the roles of the suits and not be some "nifty" thing that the devs arbitrarily thought would be cool.

there are 4 groups
laser
hybrid
missile
projectile

every weapon falls into one of the groups
dust isn't the same we would need to reorganize weapons to make it work
which brings up some questions,

• is the mass driver an auto cannon or artillery?
• what about the flaylock? shouldn't it be caldari? it fires rockets.
• is the shotgun light or medium?
• is the sniper rifle light or medium?
• if the sniper rifle is light, should it be inefficient to put it on a med frame?(small guns on a crusier)
• if the sniper rifle is medium why shouldn't scouts be able to use it?(medium guns on a frigate)
• the sniper rifle, forge gun, and pulse rifle are hybrid, gallente get bonuses for them, what does that leave the caldari?
• caldari traditionally get missile bonuses with a few exceptions which suits are the exceptions?
• why on earth would you want missile bonuses?
• there isn't a hybrid sidearm(now called light for some bizarre ass reason) what would the gallente scout get bonuses for?
• a scout and a med frame take the same SP(scout probably needs more) why on earth would anyone pick scouts? frigates are a stepping stone to crusiers scouts aren't a stepping stone to medfreams

In my scout suit, I regularly encounter and kill medframes and heavies.
In my frigate, I regularly encounter and kill cruisers and battleships.
well that translated poorly

but god forbid sidearm only logis

Let me field this.

First you have to look at how weapons are categorized in Dust here.

There are 5 groups of weapon types here.

So Flaylock/MD/Swarms are all categorized under explosive weaponry.
Rail Rifle/FG/Sniper are all rail weaponry.
SMG/HMG/Combat rifle are projectile weaponry.
Lazors are Lazors.
SG/AR/PLC are hybrid.

Now with this in mind you have to make a choice. This choice being how do you racialize the damage profiles since there are 5 damage types and only four races. To be honest I do not know. This is the answer you require to make racial suits more effective their racial weaponry. I do think it is an excellent idea though.

Everyone agrees that the amarr assault bonus is a good one, I would go so far as to say that it should be tweaked a bit (increased weapon heat build-up and the amarrian bonus to 10% per lvl heat build up reduction).

Oh and I think you are confusing something here. I think he is just equating light weapons with medium turrets, not trying to reclassify things.

I think if we use eve archetypes and apply them to dust though it could be effective.

Gallente = hard hitting,short range, rep bonuses, medium-fast (good against both)
Amarr = medium-long range, buffer armor tanking, medium-slow (great against shield)
Caldari = long range, buffer/active shield tanking, slow (selectable dmg- more armor)
Minmatar = short-mid range, hybrid tanking (mostly shield) , fast (selectable dmg - mostly armor)

I feel as if scouts are being completely ignored in this debate...

I can live with racial bonuses. but rail is hybrid and doesn't get it's own category. rail is simply long range hybrid. if CCP introduced a long range low rof high alpha minmatar sniper it would still be projectile it would just be artillery not auto cannon.

we'd need missile based weaponry for the caldari so their bonus counts for something

if you wanna put heavies in a bubble that's between you and them, however scouts would need the same/comparable bonuses to med frames. IE gal med frame gets light hybrid, so does the scout. you can't stick us with the hybrid sidearm, nobody wants that passive.

also this probably goes without saying but we would need all racial variants to make it work.

How is making scouts "invisible" to scanning ignoring them?

I'm not really a slayer, but I fit the description of an assault logi and I think this is absolutely how the balancing needs to occur.

Ask 10 different players what they think a scouts role is or should be and you'll get 10 different answers.