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Shooting the elephant in the room (Dev's might find this interesting)

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XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 694	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:47:00 - [1] - Quote Hello, There is an elephant in the room that must be shot once and for all. It comes in many forms and will be explained shortly after this Brief disclaimer: Please read the full post before commenting specially if it's to be nasty about it. A nasty well thought post can become a positive thing but a nasty ignorant post will just be viewed as flaming. A powerful wave of emotion comes when you see a Duvolle wielding proto heavy charging at you, something is not right with this picture and you "sorta know it". An even more powerful wave of emotion comes in the minds of many mercenaries when the top slayer is a Slayer logi that actually did no logi work work at all. But all that emotion comes from one singular problem. The suits themselves do not affect a way a weapon performs. This in it's most basic form can drastically change how the game is played. Before I get into the details of what should be done in dust, let me first explain how CCP manages the problem of roles in EvE online. In eve online there are different sizes of ships frigate, cruiser, battleship etc. Each size vessel has a bonus towards it's size of weaponry. So for example a battleship may have bonuses to large turrets but not be limited to only using these. Therefore you can equip the ship with small turrets but these will be less efficient on the ship than the large turrets would be. Aside from the fact the the large turrets deal more damage small turrets are not meant to be on that Battleship hence the small turrets will deal less damage on the battleship than they would if they where on a frigate. But the balancing of roles does not stop there. When a ship is meant, let's say, to be a logistics ship, apart from having hardpoints for equipping turrets reduced, these ships have no bonuses to weapons. You can put all the medium weapons you want on a logistics ship up to it's maximum allowed but these will never function as good as if they where in a heavy assault cruiser. So where am I getting at? Well CCP obviously has intended roles for suits. A logistics suit should be a logistics suit, an assault suit should assault etc, etc. Therefore let's put this Hypothetical scenario out there; this is what I want you to debate.** Lets say CCP reduces all weapon damage by say 20%. In turn they give the assault suits a bonus of 5% to medium weapon damage per level while the Logistics suit gets bonuses to repair tool efficiency or distance. The scouts get a similar bonus to sidearms or light weaponry (let the scouts decide this point) and the heavy gets the same bonus to the heavy weapon. So what does this do in the end. Well for starters this will ensure that a logi can never deal as much damage as an assault while still maintaining it's light weapon slot; A heavy with a Duvolle will never be as scary as a heavy with an HMG and the assault will be recognized for it's intended role as being a slayer. This would completely contribute to how roles are played. On a side note I am not doing more videos till 1.7 because some mechanics might get changed. This is mere speculation but to not have to do the work twice and have people viewing outdated videos I have abstained from making more. They will continue to pop out as soon as 1.7 comes out... And possibly at a faster pace since FW will allow me to test with Squad Members. Plasma Cannon Advocate
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 8303	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:49:00 - [2] - Quote Give me heavy weapons that don't suck and I may consider it. Till then, my Duvolle Heavy Machine Gun is the only girl for me Win ISK / Vids / O7
Kasote Denzara A Vulture 1137	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:50:00 - [3] - Quote Please don't shoot the elephants. They have feelings too. SWEET MOTHER OF TERESA ON THE HOOD OF A MERCEDES BENZ, YOU SOUND LIKE A MAJESTIC EAGLE! DO YOU SING?!
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4307	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:50:00 - [4] - Quote I feel like the logi slayers will attack this thread like hungry hounds defending their meal called "Slayer Logi". Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4307	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:52:00 - [5] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Give me heavy weapons that don't suck and I may consider it. Till then, my Duvolle Heavy Machine Gun is the only girl for me Oh look at that, I met a heavy yesterday that despite my 700eHP and 2x Complex damage mods, he still managed to kill me twice with 700HP left for him. Yup, HMG totally sucks. Look, it needs SOME changes because of it's weird ass reticule not being accurate, but to say it sucks is not 100% true. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
4447 Resolution XIII 901	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:52:00 - [6] - Quote Leave my heavy shotgunner alone. Troll, For lifeGÇª But maybe a dragon, uh a bigger dragon.
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 699	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:52:00 - [7] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Give me heavy weapons that don't suck and I may consider it. Till then, my Duvolle Heavy Machine Gun is the only girl for me Apart from that other elephant called weapon balancing; how do you think this could affect the overall roles in dust... In a utopic every weapon is balanced sort of way? Plasma Cannon Advocate
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4307	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:53:00 - [8] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX, you have a future at being a forum warrior. Join the dark side We have cookies :3 Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 8303	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:54:00 - [9] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Give me heavy weapons that don't suck and I may consider it. Till then, my Duvolle Heavy Machine Gun is the only girl for me Oh look at that, I met a heavy yesterday that despite my 700eHP and 2x Complex damage mods, he still managed to kill me twice with 700HP left for him. Yup, HMG totally sucks. Look, it needs SOME changes because of it's weird ass reticule not being accurate, but to say it sucks is not 100% true. Just because you entered the heavies optimal and failed to strafe well enough, or you just happened to run into a very talented player, doesn't make the HMG heavy as good as an AR or SR heavy. I can put up numbers with my HMG too, I just usually have to be with a full squad on comms and I'm generally sitting around most of the time. **** that, I want to fight, not be some bitches turret, and the AR lets me do that. Your failing does not validate his success. I would quite literally take every point I have in HMGs and put them into SMGs instead, and just run dual proto SMGs, no lie. It would be far more terrifying then HMGs, FAR more. Win ISK / Vids / O7
Ansiiis The Trustworthy Ahrendee Mercenaries 462	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:56:00 - [10] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Cat Merc wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Give me heavy weapons that don't suck and I may consider it. Till then, my Duvolle Heavy Machine Gun is the only girl for me Oh look at that, I met a heavy yesterday that despite my 700eHP and 2x Complex damage mods, he still managed to kill me twice with 700HP left for him. Yup, HMG totally sucks. Look, it needs SOME changes because of it's weird ass reticule not being accurate, but to say it sucks is not 100% true. Just because you entered the heavies optimal and failed to strafe well enough, or you just happened to run into a very talented player, doesn't make the HMG heavy as good as an AR or SR heavy. I can put up numbers with my HMG too, I just usually have to be with a full squad on comms and I'm generally sitting around most of the time. **** that, I want to fight, not be some bitches turret, and the AR lets me do that. Your failing does not validate his success. Watch your tongue! Sworn Shield of Cat Merc.

Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4307	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:56:00 - [11] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Cat Merc wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Give me heavy weapons that don't suck and I may consider it. Till then, my Duvolle Heavy Machine Gun is the only girl for me Oh look at that, I met a heavy yesterday that despite my 700eHP and 2x Complex damage mods, he still managed to kill me twice with 700HP left for him. Yup, HMG totally sucks. Look, it needs SOME changes because of it's weird ass reticule not being accurate, but to say it sucks is not 100% true. Just because you entered the heavies optimal and failed to strafe well enough, or you just happened to run into a very talented player, doesn't make the HMG heavy as good as an AR or SR heavy. I can put up numbers with my HMG too, I just usually have to be with a full squad on comms and I'm generally sitting around most of the time. **** that, I want to fight, not be some bitches turret, and the AR lets me do that. Your failing does not validate his success. Considering I beat some of the best players playing PC in 1v1, I don't think the blame can be put on me in regards to strafing or aiming. As far as getting in his optimal, if the game had footsteps I would hear him and GTFO. But I met him around a corner, so yeah. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 759	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:57:00 - [12] - Quote to many weapons for this to work also there are no medium weapons soooo thats a thing. some like their scout with NNs, some like it with a shotty, others still take an smg, I like mine with an AR, heck I even know a few who MD their scout. so what bonus does the scout get? because a shotgun bonus for the gal logi though it makes sense wouldn't work for me and instead would simply further nerf my suit. "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout, tanker. CLOSED BETA VET
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4307	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:58:00 - [13] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: to many weapons for this to work also there are no medium weapons soooo thats a thing. some like their scout with NNs, some like it with a shotty, others still take an smg, I like mine with an AR, heck I even know a few who MD their scout. so what bonus does the scout get? because a shotgun bonus for the gal logi though it makes sense wouldn't work for me and instead would simply further nerf my suit. Sidearm = small Light = Medium Heavy = Large Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 2730	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:59:00 - [14] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: to many weapons for this to work also there are no medium weapons soooo thats a thing. some like their scout with NNs, some like it with a shotty, others still take an smg, I like mine with an AR, heck I even know a few who MD their scout. so what bonus does the scout get? because a shotgun bonus for the gal logi though it makes sense wouldn't work for me and instead would simply further nerf my suit. I'm innocent. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 2 STB-Infantry (Demolition)
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 701	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:59:00 - [15] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: to many weapons for this to work also there are no medium weapons soooo thats a thing. some like their scout with NNs, some like it with a shotty, others still take an smg, I like mine with an AR, heck I even know a few who MD their scout. so what bonus does the scout get? because a shotgun bonus for the gal logi though it makes sense wouldn't work for me and instead would simply further nerf my suit. I beg to differ; In eve there are more than triple the amount of weapons in dust. This mechanic has functioned to outline roles while not constricting you to them Plasma Cannon Advocate
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 8303	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:00:00 - [16] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: But I met him around a corner, so yeah. Win ISK / Vids / O7
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1138	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:02:00 - [17] - Quote While that Idea might indeed work for eve. In eve there are a greater number of roles in total. Not to mention we have enough problem with current damage modifiers. In all honesty I don't actually see why we need an assault class, the only way to make an assault "Useful" would be to make it the best slayer, which is almost impossible without making it overpowered. While an assault carrier maybe a damage dealer in EVE, down here in DUST you don't last nearly as long. The TTK of this game would never support that kind of play. I'm not just talking about assault rifles, I mean every weapon, unless a scout could literally sponge damage it wouldn't be useful. But it is nice change to see someone thinking about something else, it's not that it's a bad idea, it makes sense, but at the same time, I just don't think it would work. The pen is mightier than the sword The gun is mightier than both Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4309	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:04:00 - [18] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Cat Merc wrote: But I met him around a corner, so yeah. And what's your point? HMG is supposed to do AR's at CQC and it did. Upto around 20m I saw heavies out tank and DPS me, and kill me. After that I beat them. I'm not saying that's right, as I said earlier, HMG needs some sort of change, but it's not nearly as bad as people say it is inside places like complexes. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4309	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:05:00 - [19] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: While that Idea might indeed work for eve. In eve there are a greater number of roles in total. Not to mention we have enough problem with current damage modifiers. In all honesty I don't actually see why we need an assault class, the only way to make an assault "Useful" would be to make it the best slayer, which is almost impossible without making it overpowered. While an assault carrier maybe a damage dealer in EVE, down here in DUST you don't last nearly as long. The TTK of this game would never support that kind of play. I'm not just talking about assault rifles, I mean every weapon, unless a scout could literally sponge damage it wouldn't be useful. But it is nice change to see someone thinking about something else, it's not that it's a bad idea, it makes sense, but at the same time, I just don't think it would work. Could easily work, ESPECIALLY in a low TTK shooter. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 701	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:05:00 - [20] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: While that Idea might indeed work for eve. In eve there are a greater number of roles in total. Not to mention we have enough problem with current damage modifiers. In all honesty I don't actually see why we need an assault class, the only way to make an assault "Useful" would be to make it the best slayer, which is almost impossible without making it overpowered. While an assault carrier maybe a damage dealer in EVE, down here in DUST you don't last nearly as long. The TTK of this game would never support that kind of play. I'm not just talking about assault rifles, I mean every weapon, unless a scout could literally sponge damage it wouldn't be useful. But it is nice change to see someone thinking about something else, it's not that it's a bad idea, it makes sense, but at the same time, I just don't think it would work. Dont forget that EvE has damage modifiers and I just told you how to make the assault be best without actually making it OP. Hence The only target section that actually has a drop in damage output is the LOGI because it's not intended as assault. All other classes stay the same because the damage reduction is gained by speccing into the suit... Plasma Cannon Advocate

Kahn Zo Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 132	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:06:00 - [21] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: to many weapons for this to work so what bonus does the scout get? false hope and 6% additional scan radius Pure Gallente
AP Grasshopper The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 50	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:09:00 - [22] - Quote It would work, you just may not like it. You'll loose alot of currently viable fitting options. Though you could argue we have too much variety at the moment? I don't feel we have enough variety to be honest.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 402	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:11:00 - [23] - Quote Ghaz, I kinda like where your head's at on this. I think the key is not limiting people, they should run whatever fit works for them, and providing bonus for role optimization. Role optimization is ultimately what you're describing from the EVE side. I am not a fan of logi's getting weapon options taken away and simply not optimizing their fit for slaying works elegantly. On that note, Dust Fiend is also spot on...he plays an offensive style of heavy and this changes his weapon requirements. He pulls the logi along instead of the logi pushing him forward and that's fine. All that should mean is that he doesn't get the additional perks of using role optimized weapons.
Flix Keptick Red Star. EoN. 1442	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:12:00 - [24] - Quote I think one of the main problem with slayer logis is also the weapon they are using: assault rifle. Why? Because it has absolutely no downside, meaning that a sidearm is fairly useless... "HP needs no buff, certain weapons need nerf. Or else all other become obsolete." GÿåForum warrior lvl.1Gÿå
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 702	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:12:00 - [25] - Quote AP Grasshopper wrote: It would work, you just may not like it. You'll loose alot of currently viable fitting options. Though you could argue we have too much variety at the moment? I don't feel we have enough variety to be honest. Hopefully this will be changed once CCP introduces all variants including officer etc. Plasma Cannon Advocate
4447 Resolution XIII 901	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:13:00 - [26] - Quote Flix Keptick wrote: I think one of the main problem with slayer logis is also the weapon they are using: assault rifle. Why? Because it has absolutely no downside, meaning that a sidearm is fairly useless... always using my side arm. Troll, For lifeGÇª But maybe a dragon, uh a bigger dragon.
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 702	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:16:00 - [27] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Ghaz, I kinda like where your head's at on this. I think the key is not limiting people, they should run whatever fit works for them, and providing bonus for role optimization. Role optimization is ultimately what you're describing from the EVE side. I am not a fan of logi's getting weapon options taken away and simply not optimizing their fit for slaying works elegantly. On that note, Dust Fiend is also spot on...he plays an offensive style of heavy and this changes his weapon requirements. He pulls the logi along instead of the logi pushing him forward and that's fine. All that should mean is that he doesn't get the additional perks of using role optimized weapons. this is an excellent post and an opportunity to state that there are many ways people fit their ships in eve that are not role optimized. The best example I can give you is that there is this ship called the ABBADDON that is meant to be used with laser weapons. All it's bonuses are for laser weaponry and defense but since laser weaponry is so Capacitor intensive (It depletes the battery faster), people started using it with minmatar weaponry. Of course It did less damage that it should if it had lasers but it had more capacitor (battery) to run it's tanking modules effectively enabling it to outlast it's opponents. Plasma Cannon Advocate
steadyhand amarr steadyhands independent mercenarys 2009	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:19:00 - [28] - Quote The role system is working fine its just nearly all dust pkayers are horrificly bad at this game, all suits fullfill their roles perfectly. But not all players are suited to the roles there trying to fill. I.e assults that should really be heavys and vice versa. That said i do think the system could be improved but u cant blame ccp for players thinking logi suits make better assults, cuz they dont and never did. Its just noone new how to get the most out of an assult :-( "i dont care about you or your goals, just show me the dam isk" winner of EU squad cup GOGO power rangers
Cai Mo L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder. 9	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:24:00 - [29] - Quote fully supporting this, as an eve veteran like yourself I've also always wondered why this logic hasn't been copied from eve, similar goes for the skill tree for suits (and vehicles) imho. forum explorer, dust prospector and eve illuminati
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 773	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:24:00 - [30] - Quote TL;DR Everything should be more versatile and specialized at the same time. I like it! KDR > ALL ME > KDR ME > ALL



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