DUST Search - Let's talk dust: Scanners, scout only?

Krom Ganesh wrote:

Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:

Not sure what the issue is with scanning. It's working fine and you can counter it for the most part with passive skills and dampening mods. It's desinged to promote teamwork and it is doing that.

If the margin of error thing has been fixed, then there are two issues with it.

The main problem is spotted time vs scanner cooldown. A person using a scanner can permanently keep the other team scanned. This leads to a simplification of gameplay. Both teams are going to use scanners (because when is knowing where the enemy is located at all times not useful?) and know exactly what the enemy is doing. When both teams know what the other team is doing, there is little reason to try anything other than a straightforward advance or retreat. This is because as soon as you try anything else, the enemy can tell what you are trying to do and easily counter it. For example, a flanking maneuver. As soon as you try to flank, the enemy will see it and quickly wipe out the smaller group.

The other problem is the sweeping/spinning. Scanners were given scan angles for a reason. Allowing sweeping/spinning makes scan angle irrelevant and hurts the usefulness of passive scanning.

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Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 2724	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:12:00 - [1] - Quote I'm sure most know my stance... Opinions below. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 2 STB-Infantry (Demolition)
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 8299	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:14:00 - [2] - Quote I'd rather they just balance scanners Win ISK / Vids / O7
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 2724	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:16:00 - [3] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I'd rather they just balance scanners Balenced or no the glaring problem is that scouts have no reason to do their jobs because any class with an equipment slot can do it just as well. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 2 STB-Infantry (Demolition)
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 774	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:16:00 - [4] - Quote I say it shouldn't be only for scouts. I see the scanner as tool for occasionally getting a bit of situational awareness, something that scouts should have by default and not require an equipment for. The scanner just needs to be nerfed so it doesn't provide constant scanning. Edit: I'd also like for the scout to have its name changed. Nothing in Dust supports the scout in actually scouting. Therefore, I would prefer if our role was renamed to something like Spec Ops. !
Kasote Denzara A Vulture 1135	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:17:00 - [5] - Quote I don't know. The scanner is a recon-esque tool, yes, but it is also a combat oriented tool. A scout would use it to poke out people, an assault would use it in order to know the surroundings and continue fighting. That's if you believe the whole "scouts are support" thing. I'm usually on the offensive with 'em, sticking rather close to my allies from the distance, prepared to flank and control a small area for them to push up into. Personal opinions? Give scouts a cloak, yo. SWEET MOTHER OF TERESA ON THE HOOD OF A MERCEDES BENZ, YOU SOUND LIKE A MAJESTIC EAGLE! DO YOU SING?!
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 793	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:20:00 - [6] - Quote I'd rather not.... I never use 'em and I don't want to give up my uplinks or RE's and feel like I "need" to use them for my squad. I'd prefer other tweaks for scouts to help them become the dangerous ninja / assassins they should be. I don't want to be in squads where people are like "OK guys, we've got a scout now we can see what's going on", then I can follow the herd around scanning for them all day. I'd actually prefer CCP just removing scouts from the game and making it a medium game only instead of making scanners scout only. Just refund me my SP and I'll figure out the rest....
Keri Starlight 0uter.Heaven Proficiency V. 1702	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:20:00 - [7] - Quote Of course not. But I remember Cat Merc making an interesting thread about the possibility to relate the Scanner's efficiency to the user's dropsuit profile. So Scouts would scan with better results than medium frames. 100% Achura "I load my gun with love instead of bullets"
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 758	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:23:00 - [8] - Quote I don't support "class only" items except when well explained. sorry scout you can't has hmg makes sense. sorry bigger better equiped frame, you can't has scanner only barebones, stripped down, suits can... doesn't make sense make scan cycle longer give scouts a scan cycle reduction. (lore reason: the enhanced passive scanning arrays take part if the cpu load) "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout, tanker. CLOSED BETA VET
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 188	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:24:00 - [9] - Quote I'd say it's an interesting idea. On the one hand it may go against CCP's core game mechanics that you make your own build, so you can have a nova-knife wearing heavy or have a plasma-cannon toting scout. This being said, they also go against this rule by restricting certain weapons to certain suits (HMG, Forge gun), but as far as equipment goes , correct me if I'm wrong, but i don't think they have class-locked certain equipment yet. The scanner though does need to be balanced somehow, and fitting it to scouts might be a viable idea - it will reinvigorate scouts and give them more of a "role" and in a secondary manner balance the scanner itself. Definitely an idea worth putting forward.
Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 488	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:27:00 - [10] - Quote No. Scouts (not light frames) should just be able to beat them more easily without a trace message and our passive scan should be extended. Gallente Scouts to 20 All other Scouts to 24 A level 2 Gallente Scout will be equal to all other scouts and surpass them after. If the Range Amplification skill gives too much native range then change the bonus to an efficacy skill like some of the other modules.

xSaloLx SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 160	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:27:00 - [11] - Quote No, besides, you always run REs. Do you want to be the one the squad relies on to be the scanner guy? Leave that to the logies.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2424	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:29:00 - [12] - Quote Nah, scouts' passive scanning should be improved and the results automatically shared with the squad. In fact, in general, I think the one sure way to reconcile the two desires to use light frames for combat and recon is to introduce a new light frame specialisation centred around combat. Leaving the scout free to scout. No.
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 2726	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:29:00 - [13] - Quote xSaloLx wrote: No, besides, you always run REs. Do you want to be the one the squad relies on to be the scanner guy? Leave that to the logies. This right here is one of the reasons I even suggested it. Scouts would need an extra equipment slot and cpu/pg to be sure, but I can't stand this crap right here. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 2 STB-Infantry (Demolition)
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 758	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:32:00 - [14] - Quote Sinboto Simmons wrote: xSaloLx wrote: No, besides, you always run REs. Do you want to be the one the squad relies on to be the scanner guy? Leave that to the logies. This right here is one of the reasons I even suggested it. Scouts would need an extra equipment slot and cpu/pg to be sure, but I can't stand this crap right here. the logi is a support role... why wouldn't they scan? "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout, tanker. CLOSED BETA VET
Cody Sietz Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 1701	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:32:00 - [15] - Quote If they "balance" the scanner then they better lower our scan profiles, raise our scan range and lower our db. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 2726	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:35:00 - [16] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: Sinboto Simmons wrote: xSaloLx wrote: No, besides, you always run REs. Do you want to be the one the squad relies on to be the scanner guy? Leave that to the logies. This right here is one of the reasons I even suggested it. Scouts would need an extra equipment slot and cpu/pg to be sure, but I can't stand this crap right here. the logi is a support role... why wouldn't they scan? 'Support' and 'Recon' are two very different things my friend. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 2 STB-Infantry (Demolition)
Cruell Grimsman Purple People Inc. 4	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:40:00 - [17] - Quote Good question. I'd like to see them for scout (not light frames) only, but as others have stated, how do you balance the other equipment modules? I'd rather have scanners for all frames that can carry them, but when used they should highlight on everyone's radar who's using the scanner (for a second, let's say for arguments sake) EXCEPT for scout frames. Alternatively, scout suits could show a 'false echo' on scanners. The distance differential could tie in with the scout suit tier. For example, scout suit lvl 1 shows the player 10m from where they are, lvl 2 suits show the player 20m from their position etc.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2072	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:43:00 - [18] - Quote Making scanners scout only breaks the ability to create weird and interesting fits. However, I'm a firm believer in adding role bonuses to suits in order to encourage specific types of use. First, active scanners need to be nerfed. Active scanner cool down needs to be lengthened significantly. Active scanner paint duration needs to be shortened. Active scanner sensitivity should be influenced by sensor skills to provide more variation based on commitment to scanning. Scouts should gain some form of bonus to using active scanners. A fully trained scout could take the active scanner back to today's levels. // Matari Warrior // Logistics / Scout / Dropship Crash Tester // @ReesNoturana
Roy Ventus Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance 619	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:43:00 - [19] - Quote They could always boost the crap out of Passive Scanners. "There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all." Roy Ventus
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2072	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:45:00 - [20] - Quote Cruell Grimsman wrote: alternatively, scout suits could show a 'false echo' on scanners. The distance differential could tie in with the scout suit tier. +1 The TacNet needs to show hits as directionless blobs and the positioning should have a level of inaccuracy based on how weak the detection is. // Matari Warrior // Logistics / Scout / Dropship Crash Tester // @ReesNoturana

4447 Resolution XIII 901	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:45:00 - [21] - Quote Sinboto Simmons wrote: I'm sure most know my stance... Opinions below. No because, No. Troll, For lifeGÇª But maybe a dragon, uh a bigger dragon.
Sana Rayya WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 457	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:46:00 - [22] - Quote "Some margin of error" messages don't exist anymore. All you get is "No margin of error" even if there is a dampened merc in your scan range. There is an audible noise emitted from the person who scans you when you are scanned. It sounds like a string of four single SMG shots separated by short intervals. Due to their natural dampening, scouts only require Lvl 2 dampening and a single basic or militia dampener to evade 28dB proto scans. Almost no one can avoid 15dB proto scans, but almost no one uses this scanner in game, so it's a moot point.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 401	Posted - 2013.12.04 15:59:00 - [23] - Quote Quick thoughts on this... 1. Not sure what the issue is with scanning. It's working fine and you can counter it for the most part with passive skills and dampening mods. It's desinged to promote teamwork and it is doing that. 2. I do think there needs to be an active dampener or cloak to give two passive and two active scanning mechanics (i.e. offense and defense). I think the cloak should be a small AOE (again to encourage team play) that functions similar to the Defend Order but lowers scan profile. 3. Scanners shouldn't be scout only...any suit should be able to put on any module or weapon (yes - if a scout wants to lug a HMG, fine...he moves at half the speed off the heavy). That said, I DO think scouts should get a solid perk for using scanner and/or cloaks. Not sure if it should be cpu/pg efficeny, range, duration, ect but about 5% bump per level.
Daxxis KANNAH Distinct Covert Initiative 488	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:10:00 - [24] - Quote Sana Rayya wrote: "Some margin of error" messages don't exist anymore. All you get is "No margin of error" even if there is a dampened merc in your scan range. Since when??? I saw the message up to a few weeks ago. I have stopped running scanners on my scouts and since I am back to playing them most of the time I cant say. I will try this out tonight to make sure. Has CCP addressed this? I really dont like false information so if it has been rectified I would like to know.
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 775	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:13:00 - [25] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Not sure what the issue is with scanning. It's working fine and you can counter it for the most part with passive skills and dampening mods. It's desinged to promote teamwork and it is doing that. If the margin of error thing has been fixed, then there are two issues with it. The main problem is spotted time vs scanner cooldown. A person using a scanner can permanently keep the other team scanned. This leads to a simplification of gameplay. Both teams are going to use scanners (because when is knowing where the enemy is located at all times not useful?) and know exactly what the enemy is doing. When both teams know what the other team is doing, there is little reason to try anything other than a straightforward advance or retreat. This is because as soon as you try anything else, the enemy can tell what you are trying to do and easily counter it. For example, a flanking maneuver. As soon as you try to flank, the enemy will see it and quickly wipe out the smaller group. The other problem is the sweeping/spinning. Scanners were given scan angles for a reason. Allowing sweeping/spinning makes scan angle irrelevant and hurts the usefulness of passive scanning. !
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 402	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:22:00 - [26] - Quote Krom Ganesh wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: Not sure what the issue is with scanning. It's working fine and you can counter it for the most part with passive skills and dampening mods. It's desinged to promote teamwork and it is doing that. If the margin of error thing has been fixed, then there are two issues with it. The main problem is spotted time vs scanner cooldown. A person using a scanner can permanently keep the other team scanned. This leads to a simplification of gameplay. Both teams are going to use scanners (because when is knowing where the enemy is located at all times not useful?) and know exactly what the enemy is doing. When both teams know what the other team is doing, there is little reason to try anything other than a straightforward advance or retreat. This is because as soon as you try anything else, the enemy can tell what you are trying to do and easily counter it. For example, a flanking maneuver. As soon as you try to flank, the enemy will see it and quickly wipe out the smaller group. The other problem is the sweeping/spinning. Scanners were given scan angles for a reason. Allowing sweeping/spinning makes scan angle irrelevant and hurts the usefulness of passive scanning. Thanks for the clarification. Reference scanner cooldown...i don't mind if someone keeps you scanned the whole time as long as you make it where they are holding a scanner more than a weapon. Thats the trade off...I give you situational awareness but you lose a shooter. I know it's not quite like that now but would be an easy fix. Honestly, this issue doesn't bother me personally but I see your point. reference sweeping and spinning...i've heard this before and really don't see the problem. I've used sensors not unlike scanners before (in RL) and you generally have to do some "spinning and sweeping" to orient yourself on what you trying to get readings on. if you are really concerned about this a legit way of adjusting this would be to increase scan fidelity and range the longer the scanner is hot. So you do a couple quick sweeps, takes 2 seconds, and you maybe only get 50% fidelity of scan. Scan fidelity and range builds to optimal levels the longer the scanner is hot.
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2073	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:41:00 - [27] - Quote Great stuff being discussed here. I started a thread in the Feedback section since those threads are actually addressed on a more regular basis by the devs. Please take your ideas there and maybe CCP Logibro will bring them up to the dev teams. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1562231#post1562231 I'm also curious if scanners actually emit noise and whether the margin of error message has been changed. // Matari Warrior // Logistics / Scout / Dropship Crash Tester // @ReesNoturana
Jadd Hatchen Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 123	Posted - 2013.12.04 16:47:00 - [28] - Quote Sinboto Simmons wrote: I'm sure most know my stance... Opinions below. Here's my thoughts on it... Fix the role bonuses that come with the scout suit. Meaning that if a non-scout picks up a scanner, they get the regular functions of that scanner... nothing special. But if a scout picks up that SAME scanner and uses it they get like a 5% per level bonus on the dB to use it and thus are possibly 25% more likely to detect things with it. Maybe even give them a 5% per level bonus to range with the scanner too. In addition, make scouts inherently "undetectable" to non-scouts using scanners. A non-scout can still reliably scan and detect everything else like they do now, but scouts would have a signature bonus that makes them much less likely to be scanned by a non-scout using a scanner. BUT, when a scout with the role bonus of being able to use a scanner does a scan, they will be able to pick up even other scouts when scanning. This makes scouts needed as the "eyes" of the battlefield for both offense and defense.
Admonishment The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 39	Posted - 2013.12.04 18:24:00 - [29] - Quote Every time a scout post is made involving equipment that only they can use it gets barraged with people I rarely see using the scout suits wanting that same equipment on their mediums so they can do it better. Which does not help the fact they are already gimped if every other suit can do the same thing with more health. A medium suit can run close to the same speed as a scout lol. Shouldn't even be possible but its able to be done. You get to have your 700+ health, we need something for us. That's one of the main issues I see with the community in this game they want every suit to be able to do the same exact thing which kills variety and any form of thought required into using suits. Same thing happened with cloaking modules lol people in medium suits want cloaking when they can just slap on an AR or Scrambler and turn their suit into a walking tank. Yeah that will help balance the game more, logi slayers that can cloak. The scanner should be based off the suit you use, pretty much anyone can slap on a scanner and get the same benefit while investing less sp than the people that skill into trying to prevent being scanned. Level 5 Proficiency in Tupperware handling.
Quil Evrything DUST University Ivy League 447	Posted - 2013.12.04 18:42:00 - [30] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: I don't support "class only" items except when well explained. Here's a good explanation: Only scouts should be able to use them USEFULLY... because when the device is hooked into a dropsuit, the suit itself interferes with clarity of scan. So, the scanner would only be capable of either; a) not being able to scan anything lower than the suit's scan profile or b) not being able to scan anything lower than the suit's scan precision. The one drawback for that, is that scanners would never be able to scan lower than 36db, unless they made changes to that too. Which I personally would be in favour of.



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