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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1342
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Posted - 2013.11.26 15:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Caldari CK.0 S-210 A-120
4x66=264+210=474
S-474 A-120 Speed penalty= 0 RegenerationS= 31.25 Delay= 5/8 RegenerationA= 0
Gallente GK.0 S-120 A-210
4x135=540+210=760
S-120 A-760 Speed penalty= 14.28% RegenerationS= 25 Delay=7/10 RegenerationA= 0
In comparison the CK.0 has an EHP of 594 and the GK.0 has an EHP of 880, in this scenario the GK.0 has the space to equip 3 damage modifiers that will boost his damage to 25% but the CK.0 can equip one complex armor plate which will negate the damage boost at the cost of 5% speed. In this new scenario the CK.0 now has an EHP of 729 while maintaining higher mobility and regeneration and thus negates the damage modifier argument. From my calculations 1 point of shield does not equal 1 point of armor, the HP difference is that shields is roughly 30% more resistant to damage than armor. So taking the 474 and adding the 30% damage resistance gives 616 shield HP plus the armor (210=135) gives an EHP of 871. Now comparing both suits again the CK.0 has 871 EHP, 4.75 m/s, 31.25 HP/s to 70% of his main HP, and 2 open low slots. The GK.0 has 880 EHP, 25% damage (negated by armor modules the CK.0 can possibly equip), 4.3 m/s, and 25 hp/s to 14% of his main HP. |
Kasote Denzara
A Vulture
939
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Posted - 2013.11.26 15:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Scrambler Rifle don't give a ****.
SWEET MOTHER OF TERESA ON THE HOOD OF A MERCEDES BENZ, YOU SOUND LIKE A MAJESTIC FUCKING EAGLE! CAN YOU SING?!
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XANDER KAG
Red Star. EoN.
526
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
What was that about shield having a 30% resist? Look at the chart down the page and tell me which weapons are used most.
Who says you can't kill in style?
When CCP plays Dust514
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
314
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
How does armor tanker have 0 regen? There is shields so they HAVE to have regen.
Seriously though you want to just run a EHP tank, throw on 3 Complex plates and 1 kin cat and bam no speed loss.
Also if shield tankers must equip able plates then why can't the armor tanker equip shields? It will aid that regen issue. PS this is dual tanking not specific tanking. Though shalt not dual tank.
Also comparing the Cal Assault to Gal Assault usually ends in favor of the Cal in terms of tanking ability. The PG/CPU mod issue will crop up every time.
Compare Gal logi to Cal logi and the argument shifts. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
1342
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Overall damage profiles from every weapon and explosive resistances not including AV weapons. |
Daxxis KANNAH
Distinct Covert Initiative
464
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kasote Denzara wrote:Scrambler Rifle don't give a ****.
Ah yes - thank you.
My heart thanks you and my doctor thanks you. - The little joys of this world. |
Flix Keptick
Red Star. EoN.
1392
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
Scr does 40% more damage to shields Ar does 20% more damage to shields These are the only weapons I ever see, must I go on?
"HP needs no buff, certain weapons need nerf. Or else all other become obsolete."
GÿåForum warrior lvl.1Gÿå
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic Top Men.
314
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Overall damage profiles from every weapon and explosive resistances not including AV weapons.
I thought the majority use AR/ScRs? Seriously when 70+% of people use 2 weapons I think we can throw the resistances out the window. |
Pvt Numnutz
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
323
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Logic was okay up until you threw in that shields just naturally resist 30% of all damage. DA faq you on about lad? |
Daxxis KANNAH
Distinct Covert Initiative
464
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
Flix Keptick wrote:Scr does 40% more damage to shields Ar does 20% more damage to shields These are the only weapons I ever see, must I go on?
Please remove this misinformation
20 and 10 |
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HyperionsThunder
Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack
148
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
Blueberries: Just make three fittings, one that is heavily laser based, one that is explosives based, and one that is hybrid based. Depending on what the other team is running, choose accordingly.
For example: If you notice everyone on the opposing team armor tanking, switch to your explosives fit. Drop their shields with flux, and then blow them the **** up. Why do you think Core grenades are such a problem?! It's because everyone is armor tanking.
Common sense will prevail. Adapt or die.
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PADDEHATPIGEN
BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder.
96
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
Hybrid weapons. short range. +10 vs. shields. - 10 vs armor. ( Caldari-Gallante )
Hybrid weapons. long range. - 10 vs. shields. + 10 vs. armor. ( Caldari-Gallante )
Projectile weapons. - 5 vs. shields. + 10 vs armor. ( Minmatar )
Energy weapons. + 20 vs. shields. - 20 vs. armor. ( Amar )
Explosive weapons. - 20 vs. shields. + 20 vs. armor. (all )
Armor tanking is NOT OP by it self, its the logi that makes armor tanking OP, then you can have 70 + HP/s in armor regen and even 2 duvolle AR full proto can't kill you.
Armor tanking is the ONLY form of tanking there is. Shields DONT regen when you get hit, armor does regen no matter what. |
DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
8002
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Not saying one way or the other
But
Remote armor reps
Read / Vid / Stream
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Chris F2112
Pradox One Proficiency V.
488
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Daxxis KANNAH wrote:Flix Keptick wrote:Scr does 40% more damage to shields Ar does 20% more damage to shields These are the only weapons I ever see, must I go on? Please remove this misinformation 20 and 10
He's talking about the damage over the damage to armor. Remember that not only do they do more damage to shields, they do less damage to armor. It's a massive difference in survivability, especially considering armor tankers get more total HP to begin with. It'll be a bit better when the new rifles come out since they do slightly more damage to armor, but the extra HP will still trump shields in most situations. |
Magnus Amadeuss
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
245
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Caldari CK.0 S-210 A-120
4x66=264+210=474
S-474 A-120 Speed penalty= 0 RegenerationS= 31.25 Delay= 5/8 RegenerationA= 0
Gallente GK.0 S-120 A-210
4x135=540+210=760
S-120 A-760 Speed penalty= 14.28% RegenerationS= 25 Delay=7/10 RegenerationA= 0
In comparison the CK.0 has an EHP of 594 and the GK.0 has an EHP of 880, in this scenario the GK.0 has the space to equip 3 damage modifiers that will boost his damage to 25% but the CK.0 can equip one complex armor plate which will negate the damage boost at the cost of 5% speed. In this new scenario the CK.0 now has an EHP of 729 while maintaining higher mobility and regeneration and thus negates the damage modifier argument. From my calculations 1 point of shield does not equal 1 point of armor, the HP difference is that shields is roughly 30% more resistant to damage than armor. So taking the 474 and adding the 30% damage resistance gives 616 shield HP plus the armor (210=135) gives an EHP of 871. Now comparing both suits again the CK.0 has 871 EHP, 4.75 m/s, 31.25 HP/s to 70% of his main HP, and 2 open low slots. The GK.0 has 880 EHP, 25% damage (negated by armor modules the CK.0 can possibly equip), 4.3 m/s, and 25 hp/s to 14% of his main HP. actually I think the caldari assault gets +2% per lvl to sheild extenders.
That means each is 66*1.1*1.1~80 HP Base HP *1.25 for skill is 262.5~262 Meaning 80*4+262=>582
The armor plates get just the skill onus, which is 135*1.1~148 HP Same dealio for base HP So 148*4+262=854
Sorry for being anal, but I think we should count suits, plus bonuses and maxed out skill when talking balance.
an easy fix to Matchmaking
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Flix Keptick
Red Star. EoN.
1393
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Daxxis KANNAH wrote:Flix Keptick wrote:Scr does 40% more damage to shields Ar does 20% more damage to shields These are the only weapons I ever see, must I go on? Please remove this misinformation 20 and 10 Scr: +20% to shields, -20% to armor, 20+20=40 Ar: +10% to shields, -10% to armor, 10+10=20
Get it?
"HP needs no buff, certain weapons need nerf. Or else all other become obsolete."
GÿåForum warrior lvl.1Gÿå
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Cosgar
ParagonX
8010
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
The entire tanking and damage profile system sucks. Shields were always bad pre 1.4, but they were better than armor by comparison. Now it's just the other way around. Without resistance modules and both tanking types sharing the same versitility with their own specific drawbacks, we might as well just run around in BPO fits.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Magnus Amadeuss
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
245
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
Flix Keptick wrote:Daxxis KANNAH wrote:Flix Keptick wrote:Scr does 40% more damage to shields Ar does 20% more damage to shields These are the only weapons I ever see, must I go on? Please remove this misinformation 20 and 10 Scr: +20% to shields, -20% to armor, 20+20=40 Ar: +10% to shields, -10% to armor, 10+10=20 Get it?
No, please explain how these opposite sign numbers (effecting different types of HP) become additive.
an easy fix to Matchmaking
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Pvt Numnutz
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
325
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
Flix Keptick wrote:Daxxis KANNAH wrote:Flix Keptick wrote:Scr does 40% more damage to shields Ar does 20% more damage to shields These are the only weapons I ever see, must I go on? Please remove this misinformation 20 and 10 Scr: +20% to shields, -20% to armor, 20+20=40 Ar: +10% to shields, -10% to armor, 10+10=20 Get it? NoGǪ.. |
Daxxis KANNAH
Distinct Covert Initiative
465
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
But his statement is incorrect and thus misinformation.
An ScR only ever does 20% damage to shields - it will do -20% to armor so a suit with more armor may give you that 40% advantage over shield based setup.
- If my logic holds and math is correct. |
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Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men.
438
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
Actually your numbers are wrong; the ScR does 50% more damage to shields than it does to armor, and the AR does 22% more damage to shields than it does to armor.
For example: ScR has 100 base damage, but 20% extra to shields means 120 DMG to shields. For armor, it's 80%, so only 80 DMG to armor. Therefore 120/80 = 1.5, or 50% more damage to shields than it does to armor.
The above reasons aside, high buffer armor tanking will always trump shield tanking because of the multiple external methods that exist to regenerate armor (repper hives, rep tools) which coincidentally also generate a ton of WP. Not to mention that a high buffer armor tanker who knows that he will receive external support can devote all highs to damage mods and all lows to plates, relying on teammate reppers to regenerate his armor. |
Chris F2112
Pradox One Proficiency V.
488
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Posted - 2013.11.26 16:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
The point of this thread is to compare armor and shields so I think the reasoning holds. An armor suit will have much more survivability against the most common weapons than a shield suit will. I even notice the difference on my caldari suit. My 280 armor generally lasts longer than my 500 shields. |
Daxxis KANNAH
Distinct Covert Initiative
465
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Posted - 2013.11.26 17:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
OK I follow |
Pvt Numnutz
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
331
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Posted - 2013.11.26 17:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
Sana Rayya wrote:Actually your numbers are wrong; the ScR does 50% more damage to shields than it does to armor, and the AR does 22% more damage to shields than it does to armor.
For example: ScR has 100 base damage, but 20% extra to shields means 120 DMG to shields. For armor, it's 80%, so only 80 DMG to armor. Therefore 120/80 = 1.5, or 50% more damage to shields than it does to armor.
The above reasons aside, high buffer armor tanking will always trump shield tanking because of the multiple external methods that exist to regenerate armor (repper hives, rep tools) which coincidentally also generate a ton of WP. Not to mention that a high buffer armor tanker who knows that he will receive external support can devote all highs to damage mods and all lows to plates, relying on teammate reppers to regenerate his armor. I don't get your math......
Yes armor has always been better than shields. It was sad that they increased the HP of armor mods because with a little teamwork armor would beat shields. Now you can seriously be invincible.... No really it's possible.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION
2021
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Posted - 2013.11.26 17:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
I've started playing around with my Calogi to see if the shield regular no plates fit can work.
It's nice in some situations against certain players, but if you are flanked or caught in the open you go down like a frontline suit.
Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
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