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The real problem of weapon balance.

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hackerzilla Defenders of the Helghast Dream 517	Posted - 2013.11.24 21:16:00 - [1] - Quote Rifles. Straight and clear. They don't take skill, semi auto or full auto. They highly benefit from aim-assist. They have lowest TTK. Lower PG and CPU requirements than other weapons. Too much versatility. Maybe they should be removed? Maybe they should be nerfed into the ground. Just think about it in a objective lens; Shotgun- very close range, very high damage, unforgiving to user miss-use Laser rifle- very accurate, "snowball" damage, longer rang, more effective vs. shields, less vs. armor. Mass Driver- AOE, shorter range, benefits from having an uphill advantage, takes a while to reach target, less effective vs. shields, more vs armor. Assault Rifle- Close to mid range, high ROF, high damage (considering range and ROF), slightly more effective vs. shields, slightly less vs armor, all around amazing weapon, highest TTK in game, easy to use, low recoil, very accurate, high ammo (in comparison to niche weapons) Scrambler Rifle- very high ROF (spamable), overheat mechanic (not a biggy if you have a medium suit on), extremely high damage, long range, charge-able, higher damage to shields, less to armor, low recoil, easy to use, high ammo count (In comparison to niche weapons) I'm sure you can spot the outlier... The best defense in not a good offense, it's a good defense.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 147	Posted - 2013.11.24 21:25:00 - [2] - Quote hackerzilla wrote: Rifles. Straight and clear. They don't take skill, semi auto or full auto. They highly benefit from aim-assist. They have lowest TTK. Lower PG and CPU requirements than other weapons. Too much versatility. Maybe they should be removed? Maybe they should be nerfed into the ground. Just think about it in a objective lens; Shotgun- very close range, very high damage, unforgiving to user miss-use Laser rifle- very accurate, "snowball" damage, longer rang, more effective vs. shields, less vs. armor. Mass Driver- AOE, shorter range, benefits from having an uphill advantage, takes a while to reach target, less effective vs. shields, more vs armor. Assault Rifle- Close to mid range, high ROF, high damage (considering range and ROF), slightly more effective vs. shields, slightly less vs armor, all around amazing weapon, highest TTK in game, easy to use, low recoil, very accurate, high ammo (in comparison to niche weapons) Scrambler Rifle- very high ROF (spamable), overheat mechanic (not a biggy if you have a medium suit on), extremely high damage, long range, charge-able, higher damage to shields, less to armor, low recoil, easy to use, high ammo count (In comparison to niche weapons) I'm sure you can spot the outlier... Yes i agree with you. Assault rifles are supposed to be the best AR in Short range but is still the best weapon at mid-Long range...... So nerf the range drastically (At least 20meters) but maybe a higher RoF. (Making it deadly at close range as intended but useless at mid-long range AS INTENDED.) Assault rifles taking the advantages of what was intended but don't take the drawbacks...... Because right now YES assualt rifles range are bad versus the others assault rifles. But in fact 90% of battle are at Assault rifles range so..... ScR should have a lower RoF to avoid "as fast as i use the trigger". He's the Dust DMR so he must keep his long range and damage. He must just lose some RoF to be balanced. Combat rilfes and Rail rifles just wait &see. But they has been produced to be as powerful than the 2 others assault rifles so i'm sure they will be OP too....
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3974	Posted - 2013.11.24 21:32:00 - [3] - Quote SG - Works well, if you're not in a scout LR - Is an underpowered POS and should not be compared to any other weapon Mass Driver - Takes little to no aiming, so you are rewarded with lowered performance AR's, and this is coming straight from CCP, are supposed to be the general purpose bastards that you bring to any engagement you aren't sure what to bring in. TTK is just too low, way too low. Stop blaming it on rifles. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Beeeees KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 324	Posted - 2013.11.24 21:33:00 - [4] - Quote Every time you say that ScR has no downsides God kills a kitten.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3974	Posted - 2013.11.24 21:38:00 - [5] - Quote Beeeees wrote: Every time you say that ScR has no downsides God kills a kitten. Has one downside, and it's not that bad when you consider how powerful this weapon is. Even with the downside I would say SCR >= AR (They are almost equal, with the balance tipping slightly for the SCR) Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
hackerzilla Defenders of the Helghast Dream 519	Posted - 2013.11.24 21:38:00 - [6] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: SG - Works well, if you're not in a scout LR - Is an underpowered POS and should not be compared to any other weapon Mass Driver - Takes little to no aiming, so you are rewarded with lowered performance AR's, and this is coming straight from CCP, are supposed to be the general purpose bastards that you bring to any engagement you aren't sure what to bring in. TTK is just too low, way too low. Stop blaming it on rifles. What I'm saying is that if there were only "POS" weapons there would be balance because everyone is using a niche gun! The best defense in not a good offense, it's a good defense.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 4249	Posted - 2013.11.24 21:48:00 - [7] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: LR - Is an underpowered POS and should not be compared to any other weapon . You know nothing John Snow.... "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3975	Posted - 2013.11.24 21:55:00 - [8] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Cat Merc wrote: LR - Is an underpowered POS and should not be compared to any other weapon . You know nothing John Snow.... Oh yeah it's effective at a very specific range VoV Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3975	Posted - 2013.11.24 21:56:00 - [9] - Quote hackerzilla wrote: Cat Merc wrote: SG - Works well, if you're not in a scout LR - Is an underpowered POS and should not be compared to any other weapon Mass Driver - Takes little to no aiming, so you are rewarded with lowered performance AR's, and this is coming straight from CCP, are supposed to be the general purpose bastards that you bring to any engagement you aren't sure what to bring in. TTK is just too low, way too low. Stop blaming it on rifles. What I'm saying is that if there were only "POS" weapons there would be balance because everyone is using a niche gun! LR is so terrible, literally every weapon beats it, even the PLC. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Smooth Assassin Stardust incorporation 379	Posted - 2013.11.24 21:59:00 - [10] - Quote Beeeees wrote: Every time you say that ScR has no downsides God kills a kitten. Stupid if god kills it's creations and makes no sense to a atheist *Assassination is my thing.*

Oswald Rehnquist 671	Posted - 2013.11.24 22:00:00 - [11] - Quote Definitely an interesting idea, You can't do rock, paper, scissors with the auto rifles, Below 28 dB
Flix Keptick Red Star. EoN. 1337	Posted - 2013.11.24 22:02:00 - [12] - Quote I have been thinking of it a lot lately, imagine how much fun the game would be if rifles (save the laser) were nerfed by at least 50% damage. Imagine the diversity we would be seing. God it would be fun. "Please don't" GÿåForum warrior lvl.1Gÿå
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3977	Posted - 2013.11.24 22:04:00 - [13] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Definitely an interesting idea, You can't do rock, paper, scissors with the auto rifles, Yes you can. What beats AR's? Anything within their range. (I.E shotguns) It's just that the paper is slightly larger :P Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Flix Keptick Red Star. EoN. 1337	Posted - 2013.11.24 22:05:00 - [14] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: SG - Works well, if you're not in a scout LR - Is an underpowered POS and should not be compared to any other weapon Mass Driver - Takes little to no aiming, so you are rewarded with lowered performance AR's, and this is coming straight from CCP, are supposed to be the general purpose bastards that you bring to any engagement you aren't sure what to bring in. TTK is just too low, way too low. Stop blaming it on rifles. Its only too low with the rifles, a mass driver will never kill you in less than a second. "Please don't" GÿåForum warrior lvl.1Gÿå
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3977	Posted - 2013.11.24 22:05:00 - [15] - Quote Flix Keptick wrote: I have been thinking of it a lot lately, imagine how much fun the game would be if rifles (save the laser) were nerfed by at least 50% damage. Imagine the diversity we would be seing. God it would be fun. It would be mass drivers everywhere, as they would have the same DPS but without the aiming Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3977	Posted - 2013.11.24 22:06:00 - [16] - Quote Flix Keptick wrote: Cat Merc wrote: SG - Works well, if you're not in a scout LR - Is an underpowered POS and should not be compared to any other weapon Mass Driver - Takes little to no aiming, so you are rewarded with lowered performance AR's, and this is coming straight from CCP, are supposed to be the general purpose bastards that you bring to any engagement you aren't sure what to bring in. TTK is just too low, way too low. Stop blaming it on rifles. Its only too low with the rifles, a mass driver will never kill you in less than a second. Because a Mass Driver is area denial, not an easy kill noob tube. A grenade launcher with 6 shots and a very wide blast radius? It MUST have low TTK to balance for it's ease of use. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3977	Posted - 2013.11.24 22:07:00 - [17] - Quote Let me just leave this here: Bandwagon: "You appealed to popularity or the fact that many people do something as an attempted form of validation. The flaw in this argument is that the popularity of an idea has absolutely no bearing on its validity. If it did, then the Earth would have made itself flat for most of history to accommodate this popular belief." Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Monkey MAC killer taxi company 1041	Posted - 2013.11.24 22:17:00 - [18] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Definitely an interesting idea, You can't do rock, paper, scissors with the auto rifles, Yes you can. What beats AR's? Anything within their range. (I.E shotguns) It's just that the paper is slightly larger :P Really? You really think the niche weapons are balanced in comparison to the rifles? When they are pulling over 300 dps? When you can fire 20 rounds without any recoil, when every shot has a natural grouping less than a fifty pence piece, when you have a mag that will take down 3 people before reloading, takes no skill to hip fire. Need I go on? The pen is mightier than the sword The gun is mightier than both Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5360	Posted - 2013.11.24 22:20:00 - [19] - Quote Flix Keptick wrote: Cat Merc wrote: SG - Works well, if you're not in a scout LR - Is an underpowered POS and should not be compared to any other weapon Mass Driver - Takes little to no aiming, so you are rewarded with lowered performance AR's, and this is coming straight from CCP, are supposed to be the general purpose bastards that you bring to any engagement you aren't sure what to bring in. TTK is just too low, way too low. Stop blaming it on rifles. Its only too low with the rifles, a mass driver will never kill you in less than a second. The difference being that the mass driver round has a 14 metre wide blast zone. Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Supporter of CCP raRaRa.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3981	Posted - 2013.11.24 22:23:00 - [20] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Definitely an interesting idea, You can't do rock, paper, scissors with the auto rifles, Yes you can. What beats AR's? Anything within their range. (I.E shotguns) It's just that the paper is slightly larger :P Really? You really think the niche weapons are balanced in comparison to the rifles? When they are pulling over 300 dps? When you can fire 20 rounds without any recoil, when every shot has a natural grouping less than a fifty pence piece, when you have a mag that will take down 3 people before reloading, takes no skill to hip fire. Need I go on? What niche weapons? Laser rifle is terrible as I said and needs a buff. Shotgun works well as I said. (Yes it's deadly as ****, just not in the hands of a scout) Sniper rifles are easy point and shoot from 90292 meters away at an enemy that can't retaliate. What else? Do you see my point? There aren't any niche weapons to speak of. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.

hackerzilla Defenders of the Helghast Dream 523	Posted - 2013.11.24 22:37:00 - [21] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Flix Keptick wrote: Cat Merc wrote: SG - Works well, if you're not in a scout LR - Is an underpowered POS and should not be compared to any other weapon Mass Driver - Takes little to no aiming, so you are rewarded with lowered performance AR's, and this is coming straight from CCP, are supposed to be the general purpose bastards that you bring to any engagement you aren't sure what to bring in. TTK is just too low, way too low. Stop blaming it on rifles. Its only too low with the rifles, a mass driver will never kill you in less than a second. The difference being that the mass driver round has a 14 metre wide blast zone. 7.2 is the max radius for the proto assault MD than on does like 70 damage splash. Pretty useless, except with fluxs, and even then it isn't close to the militia ARs dps... The best defense in not a good offense, it's a good defense.
Son-Of A-Gun 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 386	Posted - 2013.11.24 22:37:00 - [22] - Quote hackerzilla wrote: Cat Merc wrote: SG - Works well, if you're not in a scout LR - Is an underpowered POS and should not be compared to any other weapon Mass Driver - Takes little to no aiming, so you are rewarded with lowered performance AR's, and this is coming straight from CCP, are supposed to be the general purpose bastards that you bring to any engagement you aren't sure what to bring in. TTK is just too low, way too low. Stop blaming it on rifles. What I'm saying is that if there were only "POS" weapons there would be balance because everyone is using a niche gun! Wow, how misguided/terrible is this logic. We should be striving for a balance that makes all weapons fun to play. We need buffs not nerfs. {:)}{3GÇó>
hackerzilla Defenders of the Helghast Dream 523	Posted - 2013.11.24 22:38:00 - [23] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Let me just leave this here: Bandwagon: "You appealed to popularity or the fact that many people do something as an attempted form of validation. The flaw in this argument is that the popularity of an idea has absolutely no bearing on its validity. If it did, then the Earth would have made itself flat for most of history to accommodate this popular belief." I put an idea out there, if you don't like it, just say so and leave... The best defense in not a good offense, it's a good defense.
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis 2450	Posted - 2013.11.24 22:42:00 - [24] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: TTK is just too low, way too low. Stop blaming it on rifles. TTK = Time to Kill What weapon kills faster up-close than an AR or ScR? What weapon kills faster at-range than an AR or ScR? What weapon kills faster from the hip than an AR or ScR? What weapon kills faster when ADS than an AR or ScR? 1) TTK is too low. 2) The AR and ScR are too blame. 3) Soon, we'll have two more OP Rifles to complain about.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3992	Posted - 2013.11.24 23:01:00 - [25] - Quote hackerzilla wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Flix Keptick wrote: Cat Merc wrote: SG - Works well, if you're not in a scout LR - Is an underpowered POS and should not be compared to any other weapon Mass Driver - Takes little to no aiming, so you are rewarded with lowered performance AR's, and this is coming straight from CCP, are supposed to be the general purpose bastards that you bring to any engagement you aren't sure what to bring in. TTK is just too low, way too low. Stop blaming it on rifles. Its only too low with the rifles, a mass driver will never kill you in less than a second. The difference being that the mass driver round has a 14 metre wide blast zone. 7.2 is the max radius for the proto assault MD than on does like 70 damage splash. Pretty useless, except with fluxs, and even then it isn't close to the militia ARs dps... 7.2 from the blast point. It's 14.4 meters wide across. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 3992	Posted - 2013.11.24 23:03:00 - [26] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: Cat Merc wrote: TTK is just too low, way too low. Stop blaming it on rifles. Which primary kills faster up-close than an AR or ScR? Which primary kills faster at-range than an AR or ScR? Which primary kills faster from the hip than an AR or ScR? Which primary kills faster when ADS than an AR or ScR? Which primary has benefited more from AA than the AR or ScR? 1) TTK is too low. 2) The AR and ScR are almost entirely to blame. 3) Soon, we'll have two more OP Rifles to complain about. Have a look around. Which primary weapons are people using? The smart merc prefers the all-powerful, all-purpose Rifle. Which primary kills faster up-close than an AR or ScR? - Shotty Which primary kills faster at-range than an AR or ScR? - Sniper Which primary kills faster from the hip than an AR or ScR? - Shotty. Which primary kills faster when ADS than an AR or ScR? - How many weapons NEED to be ADS? Which primary has benefited more from AA than the AR or ScR? - Lazors. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Soldier of Mawat Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 205	Posted - 2013.11.24 23:11:00 - [27] - Quote I don't think the rifles are the problem, I think the problem is that we still have that 10% damage buff from early uprising. Now that hit detection has been greatly improved we are doing stupid amounts of damage with our weapons. If that 10% is removed we would see many problems going away, like heavies and scouts rightfully complaining that they are UP.
hackerzilla Defenders of the Helghast Dream 524	Posted - 2013.11.24 23:34:00 - [28] - Quote Son-Of A-Gun wrote: hackerzilla wrote: Cat Merc wrote: SG - Works well, if you're not in a scout LR - Is an underpowered POS and should not be compared to any other weapon Mass Driver - Takes little to no aiming, so you are rewarded with lowered performance AR's, and this is coming straight from CCP, are supposed to be the general purpose bastards that you bring to any engagement you aren't sure what to bring in. TTK is just too low, way too low. Stop blaming it on rifles. What I'm saying is that if there were only "POS" weapons there would be balance because everyone is using a niche gun! Wow, how misguided/terrible is this logic. We should be striving for a balance that makes all weapons fun to play. We need buffs not nerfs. .___. I used quotes for a reason. Because not all guns are POSs, but cat merc said the lazor is a POS, which it isn't, so I used quotes. The rifles are to good compared to all the other guns. So would you rather do buff everything, decreasing TTK, or nerf or remove just a few guns, and increase TTK? If you think a low TTK is good then I am just not going to say anything... The best defense in not a good offense, it's a good defense.
hackerzilla Defenders of the Helghast Dream 524	Posted - 2013.11.24 23:42:00 - [29] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Shotty GoBang wrote: Cat Merc wrote: TTK is just too low, way too low. Stop blaming it on rifles. Which primary kills faster up-close than an AR or ScR? Which primary kills faster at-range than an AR or ScR? Which primary kills faster from the hip than an AR or ScR? Which primary kills faster when ADS than an AR or ScR? Which primary has benefited more from AA than the AR or ScR? 1) TTK is too low. 2) The AR and ScR are almost entirely to blame. 3) Soon, we'll have two more OP Rifles to complain about. Have a look around. Which primary weapons are people using? The smart merc prefers the all-powerful, all-purpose Rifle. Which primary kills faster up-close than an AR or ScR? - Shotty Which primary kills faster at-range than an AR or ScR? - Sniper Which primary kills faster from the hip than an AR or ScR? - Shotty. Which primary kills faster when ADS than an AR or ScR? - How many weapons NEED to be ADS? Which primary has benefited more from AA than the AR or ScR? - Lazors. Ok, this is a troll. At first you say the laser is a piece of ***, then you say it benefits the most from AA (which is too high, signifying that it is indeed a good gun, if it even did benefit the most from AA). You also say a sniper has a faster TTK than a ScR and AR a range. Maybe at extreme range, but thats not even an argument because thats out of the rifles' range. You also say the shotty has a faster TTK at close range and at the hip. This is laughable, because it takes skill to use a shotty, which many rifle advocates lack... The best defense in not a good offense, it's a good defense.*
Meeko Fent Commando Perkone Caldari State 1676	Posted - 2013.11.24 23:58:00 - [30] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Beeeees wrote: Every time you say that ScR has no downsides God kills a kitten. Has one downside, and it's not that bad when you consider how powerful this weapon is. Even with the downside I would say SCR >= AR (They are almost equal, with the balance tipping slightly for the SCR) OH and considerably high fitting requirements. OH makes the ScR a bit tough to use on non Amarr assaults, and the fitting needs make fitting tank mods considerably more difficult. And, it's semiauto. I feel lowering the firecap (max ROF) could be done to reduce effectiveness by turbo controllers, it's a non factor in weapon effectiveness. It only be there for the group with turbos, because I really doubt you guys can spam R1 11 times every second. Even assuming 6 shots a second, a good guess I would think, means a DPS of 540 against shields, but a mere 360 on armor. The charge shot also eats a fair bit of heat, so that combo is really iffy. Miss either the follow ups or the charge, and your liable to OH and be spotted. Refunding a few AUR militia Blueprints pertaining to vehicles because their respective modules will not exist anymore



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