DUST Search - Logistics Rebalance

Korvin Lomont wrote:

Mordecai Sanguine wrote:

Shadow Archeus wrote:

I'm in favor of doing something to the logi that will end them being used as beefed up assaults.......

Here's what I think
Give them only a sidearm but give them two sidearm slots...in theory you could use a scrambler pistol for ranged fighting but a SMG for up close

Give them a small armor and shield buff but remove some module slots......this will prevent damage mods from being stacked to an insane extent but allowing the logi to have more HP than assaults

Remove the grenade slot but give them another equipment slot.....this again will put a logi in a support role and prevents the one man av grenade machines that can happen.......yes you can do it with an assault but I feel that that would be more of a bonus to go assault

Thoughts?

At a later point they could add a suit that is combat based like a logi is now but with more grenade slots instead of equipment slotsfor a grenadier type suit

Sidearm idea SUCKS. Stop bringing it.
If you remove weapons from logi then remove modules AND equipement from assaults.

Logi is supposed to have way more Hp than assaults but deal less damage.
So...Impossible to fit Damage mods for Logisuits.
And bring 20% bonus on damager for assaults. (4% per level).
Making Complex damager : 12 %

I am all against ristricting modules to suits, as this would be a great change to the game philosophy.
But if you remove damage mods from logis you should remove repair modules from assaults so assaults need logis and logis need assaults.

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Leovarian L Lavitz NECROM0NGERS 799	Posted - 2013.11.24 02:54:00 - [1] - Quote To bring the logistics back into line with the Assault and Basic suits and allow each to have its own identity, I propose the following balance. Remove the grenade slot from the logistics. Here is why: Currently the assault starts with three weapons and one equipment, for a total of four carry slots. That's fine, until you realize that the logistics suit comes with two weapons and three to four equipment, for a total maximum of six slots, or 50% more carry ability than an assault suit. Removing the grenade slot will allow the logistics suit to become the inverse of the assault suit; versatility against firepower. With the grenade slot removed, the Logistics then gets 1 weapon and 3 equipment With this change, the assault continues to have 3 Weapons and 1 Equipment Each suit specialization then stands out, for raw fire-power you can go assault. For raw versatility you can go Logistics. Omni-Soldier Few are my equal in one of these specialties, and there are none who can compare in all of them.
Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 164	Posted - 2013.11.24 03:16:00 - [2] - Quote A decent proposal. However, I think a better idea would be: 1. remove 10% damage buff from weapons 2. change shield recharge skill from assaults to 2% damage per level 3. require logis to fill all equipment slots in addition to weapon slots. Run metrics from there, and see if anything else needs tweaking.
Text Grant Death Firm. 236	Posted - 2013.11.24 04:31:00 - [3] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: A decent proposal. However, I think a better idea would be: 1. remove 10% damage buff from weapons 2. change shield recharge skill from assaults to 2% damage per level 3. require logis to fill all equipment slots in addition to weapon slots. Run metrics from there, and see if anything else needs tweaking. 1 YES 2 Maybe 1% per level 3 No need
Arc-08 Knights Of Ender Public Disorder. 131	Posted - 2013.11.24 04:47:00 - [4] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: A decent proposal. However, I think a better idea would be: 1. remove 10% damage buff from weapons 2. change shield recharge skill from assaults to 2% damage per level 3. require logis to fill all equipment slots in addition to weapon slots. Run metrics from there, and see if anything else needs tweaking. Fist off, hello guys nice post you have here. Now to business! Logi's are fine where they are now just looking at the logi's and not anything else in this game (ex TTK or weapon damage or anything like that) A logi is after all a Logistics dropsuit, as a logi you need to be with your group of people supporting them, however if you got rid of their grenade slot then you drastically decrease their chance of survival (that is already slim) when they are between groups or lagging behind. You aren't a complete support only.. i can only defend others not myself type of suit, you are still supposed to be able to defend yourself and grenades are a major part of a defensive game style. Now however if you were to say remove the grenade slot i would have to say that it be added in at the advanced tier logi suit, If you didn't give it until proto then that would severely decrease the function of being a good advanced logi, remember some people cannot afford proto's and it would not be fair to force them to go proto just to get an essential part of the logi's self defense. Advanced Recon Commando's (A.R.C's) --- The most Elite fighting force in the galaxy
Leovarian L Lavitz NECROM0NGERS 799	Posted - 2013.11.24 05:36:00 - [5] - Quote Arc-08 wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: A decent proposal. However, I think a better idea would be: 1. remove 10% damage buff from weapons 2. change shield recharge skill from assaults to 2% damage per level 3. require logis to fill all equipment slots in addition to weapon slots. Run metrics from there, and see if anything else needs tweaking. Fist off, hello guys nice post you have here. Now to business! Logi's are fine where they are now just looking at the logi's and not anything else in this game (ex TTK or weapon damage or anything like that) A logi is after all a Logistics dropsuit, as a logi you need to be with your group of people supporting them, however if you got rid of their grenade slot then you drastically decrease their chance of survival (that is already slim) when they are between groups or lagging behind. You aren't a complete support only.. i can only defend others not myself type of suit, you are still supposed to be able to defend yourself and grenades are a major part of a defensive game style. Now however if you were to say remove the grenade slot i would have to say that it be added in at the advanced tier logi suit, If you didn't give it until proto then that would severely decrease the function of being a good advanced logi, remember some people cannot afford proto's and it would not be fair to force them to go proto just to get an essential part of the logi's self defense. So, what you are saying is that if your gamestyle includes grenades that you would have to choose a different suit? It wouldn't be one logi fits all anymore? Omni-Soldier Few are my equal in one of these specialties, and there are none who can compare in all of them.
HAWAIIAN MONK 808 0	Posted - 2013.11.24 09:11:00 - [6] - Quote Good topic. I think the logi is fine where its at. But If you want to nerf it just take some of their mod slots away. And make their shields and armor buff a skill not a mod. And force them to spec into a logi shield or armor spec, and cause they don't have enough mod slots to add damage mods they won't be as kill efficient as an assault. They be a true support. Drop grenades,heals,and support DPS etc... cause yes they have more equipment slots but a equally or a little under geared assault one on one will always out dps a logi
Dericha A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance 1	Posted - 2013.11.24 09:15:00 - [7] - Quote Everyone should run an Amarr logi suit. Taking away a grenade slot won't change that. It will just gimp other races suits more. I recently came back to Dust after a few months off and logo's feel drastically less sturdy than when I left. 800 or 900 effective hit points doesn't seem to mean a thing now and you can't tell where people are. I have less survivability than before the armor buff as a Gallente. If you're scanning you can't even break it to defend yourself. Grenades are not the issue. So what to do with the game as is? You either scan or run as fast as you can so it's hard for people to target you. You roll an Amarr logi so you can have a sidearm and an AR, a scanner, and a bunch of speed mods. Or a scout shotgunner. That's Dust. My suggestion- (1)buff Logis survivability back to where it was in August and preclude them from equipping damage mods. A logi needs to be able to stand behind a heavy and take half a second of focus fire from an AR or they can't support the front line. Might as well give us all Golden Guns and call it a day. (2) Increase the reload time for snipers. Why? because my next suggestion. (3) Get rid of speed buffs. Make people really need to think about how they move as an individual and as a group. That strengthens the role of heavies, logi's, and cover. It also makes assault suits more attractive to assault players.
HAWAIIAN MONK 808 0	Posted - 2013.11.24 09:16:00 - [8] - Quote Good topic. I think the logi is fine where its at. But If you want to nerf it just take some of their mod slots away. And make their shields and armor buff a skill not a mod. And force them to spec into a logi shield or armor spec, and cause they don't have enough mod slots to add damage mods they won't be as kill efficient as an assault. They be a true support. Drop grenades,heals,and support DPS etc... cause yes they have more equipment slots but a equally or a little under geared assault one on one will always out dps a logi
RKKR The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 471	Posted - 2013.11.24 09:40:00 - [9] - Quote 1. You mean GAME Balance instead of LOGI right? 2. My logi is usually the only one with flux nades, 1 flux can make 50 WP by just destroying equipment, making all the "hive-spam-OPness" a laugh. 3. Doesn't the logi actually has a medium grenade slot? We're probably getting more goodies.
Draco Cerberus Hell's Gate Inc 530	Posted - 2013.11.24 10:28:00 - [10] - Quote I'm not sure if you understand the concept of one class being better at certain things than others sir. It has come to my attention that Assaults are better at killing (personal experience) and logis are better at pack muling. If you wish to balance something try asking for a longer TTK. It could be that the logi isn't really doing anything other than getting a stray grenade in here and there and finishing you off or it could even be that he is being a grenadier because it is the one class uniquely suited to the role. Whatever the case, most logis suffer from suit loss far more than Assaults do due to not having a gun in their hands when a bad guy comes around the corner and this may cause them to toss a grenade followed by a stream of bullets. Fair warning, this is a war game... we can't all be running around playing doctor all the time. I know assaults certainly can't be. *One Universe...with friendly fire and Open World Game Play for all!*

Shadow Archeus OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 151	Posted - 2013.11.24 12:15:00 - [11] - Quote I'm in favor of doing something to the logi that will end them being used as beefed up assaults....... Here's what I think Give them only a sidearm but give them two sidearm slots...in theory you could use a scrambler pistol for ranged fighting but a SMG for up close Give them a small armor and shield buff but remove some module slots......this will prevent damage mods from being stacked to an insane extent but allowing the logi to have more HP than assaults Remove the grenade slot but give them another equipment slot.....this again will put a logi in a support role and prevents the one man av grenade machines that can happen.......yes you can do it with an assault but I feel that that would be more of a bonus to go assault Thoughts?
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 144	Posted - 2013.11.24 12:53:00 - [12] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: A decent proposal. However, I think a better idea would be: 1. remove 10% damage buff from weapons 2. change shield recharge skill from assaults to 2% damage per level 3. require logis to fill all equipment slots in addition to weapon slots. Run metrics from there, and see if anything else needs tweaking. 1. Not all weapons. Only a few weapons was affected by hit detection issues i don't see why they should ALL be nerfed. Mass driver is already USELESS since detection issues and armor values. Just nerf weapons affected by hit detection. (High RoF exept HMG) All assault rifles / SCR SMG etcetc... 2. I agree assaults is supposed to be weakier than logistics but do more damage. But 2% per level is too much 1% is fine. 3. Yes but welcome to 3 compact nanohives..... No i think they should fit all equipement slot AND by meta level. (The more meta level has the suits the more meta level equipement you must fit.) Then it will be better.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French 144	Posted - 2013.11.24 12:58:00 - [13] - Quote Shadow Archeus wrote: I'm in favor of doing something to the logi that will end them being used as beefed up assaults....... Here's what I think Give them only a sidearm but give them two sidearm slots...in theory you could use a scrambler pistol for ranged fighting but a SMG for up close Give them a small armor and shield buff but remove some module slots......this will prevent damage mods from being stacked to an insane extent but allowing the logi to have more HP than assaults Remove the grenade slot but give them another equipment slot.....this again will put a logi in a support role and prevents the one man av grenade machines that can happen.......yes you can do it with an assault but I feel that that would be more of a bonus to go assault Thoughts? At a later point they could add a suit that is combat based like a logi is now but with more grenade slots instead of equipment slotsfor a grenadier type suit Sidearm idea SUCKS. Stop bringing it. If you remove weapons from logi then remove modules AND equipement from assaults. Logi is supposed to have way more Hp than assaults but deal less damage. So...Impossible to fit Damage mods for Logisuits. And bring 20% bonus on damager for assaults. (4% per level). Making Complex damager : 12 %
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 259	Posted - 2013.11.24 13:09:00 - [14] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Shadow Archeus wrote: I'm in favor of doing something to the logi that will end them being used as beefed up assaults....... Here's what I think Give them only a sidearm but give them two sidearm slots...in theory you could use a scrambler pistol for ranged fighting but a SMG for up close Give them a small armor and shield buff but remove some module slots......this will prevent damage mods from being stacked to an insane extent but allowing the logi to have more HP than assaults Remove the grenade slot but give them another equipment slot.....this again will put a logi in a support role and prevents the one man av grenade machines that can happen.......yes you can do it with an assault but I feel that that would be more of a bonus to go assault Thoughts? At a later point they could add a suit that is combat based like a logi is now but with more grenade slots instead of equipment slotsfor a grenadier type suit Sidearm idea SUCKS. Stop bringing it. If you remove weapons from logi then remove modules AND equipement from assaults. Logi is supposed to have way more Hp than assaults but deal less damage. So...Impossible to fit Damage mods for Logisuits. And bring 20% bonus on damager for assaults. (4% per level). Making Complex damager : 12 % I am all against ristricting modules to suits, as this would be a great change to the game philosophy. But if you remove damage mods from logis you should remove repair modules from assaults so assaults need logis and logis need assaults.
Shadow Archeus OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 151	Posted - 2013.11.24 14:06:00 - [15] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Shadow Archeus wrote: I'm in favor of doing something to the logi that will end them being used as beefed up assaults....... Here's what I think Give them only a sidearm but give them two sidearm slots...in theory you could use a scrambler pistol for ranged fighting but a SMG for up close Give them a small armor and shield buff but remove some module slots......this will prevent damage mods from being stacked to an insane extent but allowing the logi to have more HP than assaults Remove the grenade slot but give them another equipment slot.....this again will put a logi in a support role and prevents the one man av grenade machines that can happen.......yes you can do it with an assault but I feel that that would be more of a bonus to go assault Thoughts? At a later point they could add a suit that is combat based like a logi is now but with more grenade slots instead of equipment slotsfor a grenadier type suit Sidearm idea SUCKS. Stop bringing it. If you remove weapons from logi then remove modules AND equipement from assaults. Logi is supposed to have way more Hp than assaults but deal less damage. So...Impossible to fit Damage mods for Logisuits. And bring 20% bonus on damager for assaults. (4% per level). Making Complex damager : 12 % I am all against ristricting modules to suits, as this would be a great change to the game philosophy. But if you remove damage mods from logis you should remove repair modules from assaults so assaults need logis and logis need assaults. Everyone treats the sidearm only solution like its sooooo outrageous but think about it Right now logis don't rely on anyone while everyone depends on logis don't really depend on anyone else for anything By limiting a logi to a sidearm it cuts his offensive capabilities at longer ranges making the logi depend on every other suit for long range defense By giving the logi 2 sidearm slots it provides them with effective medium and close range defense by the ability to mix and match sidearms Imagine a scrambler pistol for mid range and a SMG for up close Or a SMG nova knife or any one of the possible combinations that would make logis very unpredictable within their effective range As far as limiting modules I believe damage mods shouldn't even exist but instead should be replaced with modules that effect weapon mechanics Like a mod that increases ROF or one that increases hip fire accuracy......plain Jane raw damage mods are boring and so far have been one of the most abused things in this game
Arc-08 Knights Of Ender Public Disorder. 132	Posted - 2013.11.24 15:01:00 - [16] - Quote RKKR wrote: 1. You mean GAME Balance instead of LOGI right? 2. My logi is usually the only one with flux nades, 1 flux can make 50 WP by just destroying equipment, making all the "hive-spam-OPness" a laugh. 3. Doesn't the logi actually has a medium grenade slot? We're probably getting more goodies. yes, and this is what i'm talking about grenades are needed for logi's to defend themselves and support their team. If you didn't have your flux nades to take out their uplinks you could easily have been killed in a heartbeat by a shotgunner spawning in as you are running away, or trying to shoot the uplink. Or your team could have been swarmed and lost an objective you can't just get rid of something that is that important on any suit just because. It isn't like grenade spam is only a thing because of Logi's... well if logi's didn't have grenades then grenade spam would be gone, that is false. grenade spam would still be a thing. Advanced Recon Commando's (A.R.C's) --- The most Elite fighting force in the galaxy
SteelheadPep SAM-MIK 2	Posted - 2013.11.24 18:28:00 - [17] - Quote It seems that people are upset about slayer logis and/or the fact that support logis can score higher than some mercenaries. These threads popup like mushrooms on a pile of cow s**t. As stated in numerous prior threads; solution#235, logistics suits cannot fit damage mods as stated by Dericha but the stacking penality and CPU /PG. Requirements should be increased for everyone else.You keep crying for the nerf hammer, it is only fair that you experience a little loving from CCP aswell.
Leovarian L Lavitz NECROM0NGERS Covert Intervention 801	Posted - 2013.11.26 13:36:00 - [18] - Quote SteelheadPep wrote: It seems that people are upset about slayer logis and/or the fact that support logis can score higher than some mercenaries. These threads popup like mushrooms on a pile of cow s**t. As stated in numerous prior threads; solution#235, logistics suits cannot fit damage mods as stated by Dericha but the stacking penality and CPU /PG. Requirements should be increased for everyone else.You keep crying for the nerf hammer, it is only fair that you experience a little loving from CCP aswell. I have and use all of the advanced suits in the game (which also means that I have via aurum all of the proto specialty suits in the game). I'm not biased towards any particular suit, and have experience in all of them. I feel, from my background as an omni-soldier that the logistics suit would be perfectly balanced by loosing its grenade slot. It would then have 1 weapon and three to four equipment, and the assault and basic suits would have 3 weapons and 1 equipment. Omni-Soldier Few are my equal in one of these specialties, and there are none who can compare in all of them.
Hecarim Van Hohen Knights of Eternal Darkness 260	Posted - 2013.11.26 13:47:00 - [19] - Quote You can take the grenade slot out of my logi suit any day you like. D-í¦¦¦¦i-ó¦¦¦+¦¿¦ºv-ë-£i-ë¦ó¦¦d¦ò-Ç¦íe¦¦-ë-í¦ò-ó ¦ò¦+-üw¦¿¦¦e-ü -ë¦òs¦¢¦+t-Å¦+-£a¦¢-án-¥¦¢-ƒ¦¢d-ü-í-ó¦ó-ó ¦¦u-ÿ-ó¦¦¦+n-ÿ-í¦¦-ü-ëi¦ó-ó-Pt-Å-Åe¦º-Å-Çd-Å-ó -ü-ÿ-ü-íw¦¿-¥-£¦í-ëe¦¦-ÿ-ü -í-ü¦óf-ía¦¢¦+-P¦í-ól-ƒ¦ó
Sgt Buttscratch R 0 N 1 N 1033	Posted - 2013.11.26 14:44:00 - [20] - Quote Is this an attempt to stop Nyain san from ever killing again. Gallente logi and core locus is all they know!! I stick my weiner in two buns and and then give it the gas Sour cream from my spleen into Levi jeans

Leovarian L Lavitz NECROM0NGERS Covert Intervention 802	Posted - 2013.11.26 14:45:00 - [21] - Quote Sgt Buttscratch wrote: Is this an attempt to stop Nyain san from ever killing again. Gallente logi and core locus is all they know!! They'll then spec into the assault suit and assault with it. Omni-Soldier Few are my equal in one of these specialties, and there are none who can compare in all of them.
Sgt Buttscratch R 0 N 1 N 1033	Posted - 2013.11.26 14:54:00 - [22] - Quote Leovarian L Lavitz wrote: Sgt Buttscratch wrote: Is this an attempt to stop Nyain san from ever killing again. Gallente logi and core locus is all they know!! They'll then spec into the assault suit and assault with it. but how would they carry 2 sets of triage hives, 1 ammo hive and a scanner? I stick my weiner in two buns and and then give it the gas Sour cream from my spleen into Levi jeans
Heavenly Daughter the Aurum Grinder and Company 162	Posted - 2013.11.26 14:55:00 - [23] - Quote Leovarian L Lavitz wrote: To bring the logistics back into line with the Assault and Basic suits and allow each to have its own identity, I propose the following balance. Remove the grenade slot from the logistics. Here is why: Currently the assault starts with three weapons and one equipment, for a total of four carry slots. That's fine, until you realize that the logistics suit comes with two weapons and three to four equipment, for a total maximum of six slots, or 50% more carry ability than an assault suit. Removing the grenade slot will allow the logistics suit to become the inverse of the assault suit; versatility against firepower. With the grenade slot removed, the Logistics then gets 1 weapon and 3 equipment With this change, the assault continues to have 3 Weapons and 1 Equipment Each suit specialization then stands out, for raw fire-power you can go assault. For raw versatility you can go Logistics. . __ `/.)\ Nade \| Scan Attempt Prevented \| \__/ 514 \| Longest Shot 588 Mtrs \|`
Leovarian L Lavitz NECROM0NGERS Covert Intervention 802	Posted - 2013.11.26 14:55:00 - [24] - Quote Sgt Buttscratch wrote: Leovarian L Lavitz wrote: Sgt Buttscratch wrote: Is this an attempt to stop Nyain san from ever killing again. Gallente logi and core locus is all they know!! They'll then spec into the assault suit and assault with it. but how would they carry 2 sets of triage hives, 1 ammo hive and a scanner? By giving up their grenade. Omni-Soldier Few are my equal in one of these specialties, and there are none who can compare in all of them.
Anoko Destrolock ZionTCD Public Disorder. 17	Posted - 2013.11.26 18:41:00 - [25] - Quote I think the biggest problem with logis is the amount of slots. This gives them more hp with more equipment and the same amount of Dmg. The standard logi suits are fine. But the proto logi suits have too many high and low slots Logis gain more slots between adv and proto than any other class To balance logis and ttk in 1 blow: I would suggest an overall damage nerf of 30% to start and tweak from there Also, add a 2% Dmg per level for assault suits this could be added to other classes in different forms Ex. 2% hp for heavy 2% speed for scout 2% mitigation for logi
Johnny Guilt 366	Posted - 2013.11.26 18:58:00 - [26] - Quote screw it,remove proto tier for logis
Jason-Anthony Testa FACTION WARFARE ARMY 2	Posted - 2013.11.26 20:00:00 - [27] - Quote you can take my grenade when you pry it from my cold dead hand. I didn't know there were liberal democrats in new eden, boy you gun grabbers are everywhere....
Kh405 L19th Die Steppenwolfe 5	Posted - 2013.11.26 20:20:00 - [28] - Quote I could lose the grenade slot without hesitation (even though I have spent some SP at it), but I agree with the idea of getting one more equipment slot in exchange, this could give the chance of using remote/proximity explosives instead a grenade and emphasize the logistics nature of the dropsuit (I'm a Minmatar logistics so at prototype tear that would mean having 5 equipment slots, wohoo!). Also, this would mean upgrading the CPU/PG just a little bit so you could have all sorts of equipment without a problem (specially the CPU, but getting a little PG too wouldn't hurt). The idea of having two sidearms instead of one light one is a terrible idea, a logistics soldier would stop being able to defend him/herself effectively and we don't have good shields and armors (by default) so we're already pretty vulnerable as is. And don't touch the amount of modules in the dropsuit, as having a lot of equipment already limits the amount (and type) of modules you can use, so I see no problem there.


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