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Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 946	Posted - 2013.11.16 09:03:00 - [1] - Quote I highly suggest you download the PDF available here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Pqc0ScXKN7eHlXYVk2SW5XazA/edit?usp=sharing The PDF is much easier on the eyes than the forums here and includes images and reference links. However GoogleDocs does not display everything properly, so I suggest actually downloading the file for best results. EVE DUST514 ADS Reports Analysis - Discussion - Suggestions By Pokey Dravon CHAPTER I Defining Racial Themes O V E R V I E W In order to unify the overall themes within the Dust/EVE universe and provide a more stable, consistent basis for the development of the mechanics in the game, a stronger baseline for Racial Themes must be established. As it stands, the attributes and abilities of dropsuits, vehicles, weapons, and gear, are largely lacking in uniformity and organization. This document will establish an updated baseline of racial themes in the game to form a foundation of future reports. S C O P E This document is conceptual only. As such I will avoid using absolute numbers as it will detract from the concepts at hand. This is also largely due to the fact that we as a playerbase do not have access to a testing ground to directly test and attempt to balance these mechanics, and as such any attempt to balance would be pure speculation. This documentGÇÖs purpose is to give the development team a direction to consider and work towards. Each race is broken down into a series of key concepts. These concepts are the foundation for all other racial units and must be adhered to as closely as possible. Tee developers have done a fair job in establishing themes within the system; however clarification and organization are needed to form a more stable foundation for future content. These themes are designed to match closely with EVE for continuity purposes. Some constant themes present in Dust514 are inconsistent with EVE. In these situations, the Dust514 precedent will be used The ultimate purpose of this document is to define a nomenclature which gives each race an easily recognized theme. These themes can then be applied to the Roles on the Battlefield (discussed in a later report) to create unique and easily recognizable combinations. This not only creates a clear and easily understood system for players, but also streamlines and simplifies the design process for future content. This document is largely opinion and should be evaluated as such. C A L D A R I The Caldari are traditionally are shield tankers with a moderate amount of HP. Because they rely on shield systems to buffer their limited HP, Caldari tend to fight from a distance. This style of combat favors very accurate long range rail-type weapons as well as missile systems. Technically, Caldari rail weapons are a very similar technology to Gallente Blasters as they use Hybrid ammunition. However for simplicity I am going to simply define Caldari Hybrid Weapons as GÇ£Rail WeaponsGÇ¥ and Gallente Hybrid Weapons as GÇ£Blaster WeaponsGÇ¥. In addition, damage types vary depending on ammo used, but again for simplicity IGÇÖm going to say that Rail Weapons do Kinetic Rail damage (Not to be confused with Kinetic Projectile damage) and Missiles do Explosive damage. Traditionally they are able to fit a number of damage modifiers allowing for massive damage output; however for infantry in Dust, this is generally not true as infantry damage mods take up the same slots as shield defenses. The weapon range advantage is balanced by an unimpressive speed with above average endurance. In addition, their uniquely high shield HP pool and shield recharge rate is countered by slow movement speed and moderately low effective HP. Slot layouts should favor more high slots over low to facilitate the use of shields over armor, as well as bonuses and resources to support the use of shield extenders. In addition, Caldari weapons should be low fire rate with high damage shots, usually requiring a short charge time for Rail Weapons. In terms of lore, the Caldari are cold and calculated. They value efficiency and precision over all else and their designs and mechanics should reflect this. Summary: Caldari should be encouraged to play long range via the use of accurate Kinetic weapons and long range missile weapons. Their bonuses should focus on increasing total Shield HP as well as the damage they deal with Caldari Kinetic and Explosive weapons. Their total HP should be moderate to discourage close range play, and their shield recharge/delay low to offset the heavy weight on shield HP. Weapons should be low RoF, High damage, and very accurate.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 946	Posted - 2013.11.16 09:03:00 - [2] - Quote Reserved
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 946	Posted - 2013.11.16 09:04:00 - [3] - Quote Reserved
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 946	Posted - 2013.11.16 09:05:00 - [4] - Quote Reserved
Aaroniero d'Lioncourt The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 272	Posted - 2013.11.16 09:12:00 - [5] - Quote Reserved
Luna Angelo We Who Walk Alone 85	Posted - 2013.11.16 09:13:00 - [6] - Quote Reserved. I am the Horseless Headsman. Director and COO of We Who Walk Alone
Ghost Kaisar R 0 N 1 N 869	Posted - 2013.11.16 09:24:00 - [7] - Quote Take the +1! You've earned it! Thank you for going and showing everyone how the suits are SUPPOSED to be run! Sure flexibility in the system allows for deviation, but right now, you can break the mold of some fits almost completely. I would love to see this game go to a point where running a suit the way it was intended would actually be more effective then the current MOAR EHP trend. "All war is deception." "He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious" -Sun Tzu
Jackof All-Trades The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 252	Posted - 2013.11.16 09:26:00 - [8] - Quote Reading through it now, and though I hate for my first comment to be somewhat negative... "Because they have a high amount of Shield and Armor HP but low number of slots, the Amarr should favor replenishing their base HP instead of extending it. With a high amount of Shield and Armor HP but a low number of slots, the Amarr should favor replenishing base HP instead of extending it." You repeated that in the Amarr section. Aside from that, looking awesome! "Pulvis et umbra sums." We are but dust and shadow GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace \ Omni-Specialist / Focus: Gallente
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 947	Posted - 2013.11.16 09:29:00 - [9] - Quote Jackof All-Trades wrote: Reading through it now, and though I hate for my first comment to be somewhat negative... "Because they have a high amount of Shield and Armor HP but low number of slots, the Amarr should favor replenishing their base HP instead of extending it. With a high amount of Shield and Armor HP but a low number of slots, the Amarr should favor replenishing base HP instead of extending it." You repeated that in the Amarr section. Aside from that, looking awesome! Thanks for pointing that out, I've got a mess of formatting between InDesign, Word, and the forums here, so I must have accidentally transposed that line twice. Updated in the original post, I'll be fixing the PDF in a moment.
Jackof All-Trades The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 252	Posted - 2013.11.16 09:36:00 - [10] - Quote I'm not sure how I feel about Amarr regenerating armour quickly, as I feel that should be a more Gallente focused bonus. This is due to the Gallente having to fight in close quarters, an environment that needs to quickly replenish. Amarr having laser weaponry however, should be about being able to hit hard and take a lot of hits in turn, but when their health gets low fall back to rep. TL;DR Gallente need the reps because of CQC. Their weakness would be being simply overpowered by an opponent or outranged (Caldari). Amarr are tank and gank, and rep away from combat. Their weakness would be being attacked while they rep (Minmatar). "Pulvis et umbra sums." We are but dust and shadow GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace \ Omni-Specialist / Focus: Gallente

Jackof All-Trades The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 252	Posted - 2013.11.16 09:37:00 - [11] - Quote Also, perhaps Minmatar can get a bonus to stealth to help facilitate the Guerrilla warfare they utilise. Apart from that, there's nothing more I can add. You've pretty much summed up exactly how I feel the suits should be. Kudos to you, sir! "Pulvis et umbra sums." We are but dust and shadow GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace \ Omni-Specialist / Focus: Gallente
Jackof All-Trades The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 253	Posted - 2013.11.16 09:48:00 - [12] - Quote Or... maybe just one thing. I completely agree with you on the whole Gallente/Amarr reversal. It may make a lot of players unhappy with the change, but it is much needed, and better sooner than later. I didn't know Gallente could shield tank. Anyway, completely agree with you on that last point, thanks for an excellent write-up! "Pulvis et umbra sums." We are but dust and shadow GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace \ Omni-Specialist / Focus: Gallente
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 10296	Posted - 2013.11.16 09:49:00 - [13] - Quote Gallente has had traditionally went with repair bonuses, so less ehp and more reparability. Where as amarr has traditionally went with extremely high eHPs. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier Specialist Current Theme \\= Advanced Scrambler Rifle =// Unlocked
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 952	Posted - 2013.11.16 09:58:00 - [14] - Quote Jackof All-Trades wrote: Or... maybe just one thing. I completely agree with you on the whole Gallente/Amarr reversal. It may make a lot of players unhappy with the change, but it is much needed, and better sooner than later. I didn't know Gallente could shield tank. Anyway, completely agree with you on that last point, thanks for an excellent write-up! Its not really a common practice, but there are a few Gallente ships that can put up a decent shield defense. Admittedly I'm more of a shield guy in EVE, but from my understanding the Amarr always had massive armor EHP and the Gallente revolved more around repairing that armor more quickly, but with less EHP. This is why the Amarr Logi bonus confused me. I'll be covering my thoughts on bonuses for each suit role to better reflect these racial themes in Chapter II.
Jackof All-Trades The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 253	Posted - 2013.11.16 10:19:00 - [15] - Quote Nonetheless, enlightening and I support your views. It makes sense to me Gallente would rep more while Amarr would EHP tank more. Hmm, now that I think of it, my short stay in EVE landed me with a shield-tanking Algos... "Pulvis et umbra sums." We are but dust and shadow GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace \ Omni-Specialist / Focus: Gallente
Azri Sarum BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 122	Posted - 2013.11.16 12:06:00 - [16] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: snip This effectively means that the Amarr and Gallente are backwards in their slots and bonuses. Going by EVE themes, the Gallente should have a similar amount of high and low slots with a bonus to armor repair module repair rate, whereas the Amarr should have many more low slots and get the bonus to armor plates. However as I stated in the scope of this document, I would avoid violating strong existing Dust theme in my suggestions and analysis, so I kept with the current setup, even if it is a bit backwards. I would suggest however that CCP consider reversing these suits to make it continuous with traditional EVE themes. [/i] Glad to see some others voicing this. As someone who came from EVE to DUST the backwards nature of these two drives me crazy. All the little things DUST either got wrong or decided to do differently than EVE are just rough spots that are going to need to be fixed sooner or later. Better to do it now with fewer assets in game, and before the connection between the games is strong. As that connection grows every one of these mistakes will come to light. If these two games are truley supposed to occupy the same universe, then the two games need to mirror each other in all the fine details. EVE - Victor Maximus DUST - Azri Sarum
Ghost Kaisar R 0 N 1 N 874	Posted - 2013.11.16 17:29:00 - [17] - Quote Jackof All-Trades wrote: Reading through it now, and though I hate for my first comment to be somewhat negative... "Because they have a high amount of Shield and Armor HP but low number of slots, the Amarr should favor replenishing their base HP instead of extending it. With a high amount of Shield and Armor HP but a low number of slots, the Amarr should favor replenishing base HP instead of extending it." You repeated that in the Amarr section. Aside from that, looking awesome! Nothing wrong with helping someone proofread, so long as you are nice about it "All war is deception." "He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious" -Sun Tzu
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 965	Posted - 2013.11.16 19:43:00 - [18] - Quote Azri Sarum wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: snip This effectively means that the Amarr and Gallente are backwards in their slots and bonuses. Going by EVE themes, the Gallente should have a similar amount of high and low slots with a bonus to armor repair module repair rate, whereas the Amarr should have many more low slots and get the bonus to armor plates. However as I stated in the scope of this document, I would avoid violating strong existing Dust theme in my suggestions and analysis, so I kept with the current setup, even if it is a bit backwards. I would suggest however that CCP consider reversing these suits to make it continuous with traditional EVE themes. [/i] Glad to see some others voicing this. As someone who came from EVE to DUST the backwards nature of these two drives me crazy. All the little things DUST either got wrong or decided to do differently than EVE are just rough spots that are going to need to be fixed sooner or later. Better to do it now with fewer assets in game, and before the connection between the games is strong. As that connection grows every one of these mistakes will come to light. If these two games are truley supposed to occupy the same universe, then the two games need to mirror each other in all the fine details. I'll be releasing my report on battlefield roles hopefully this weekend to provide a more clear and concise definition of what each specialty actually means and how their skills and bonuses should be built around those definitions. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 306	Posted - 2013.11.16 22:29:00 - [19] - Quote Great work, Pokey. I appreciate the way you square the lore vs game bonus and cultural guidelines of the Amarr and Gallente. I'm interested or see how you address the ways the races account for or mitigate the natural "vulnerabilities" based on their individual approach to combat.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1028	Posted - 2013.11.22 07:01:00 - [20] - Quote Chapter 2 is now available here: Defining Roles of the Battlefield ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes

Dagger-Two Villore Joint Task Force Villore Accords 141	Posted - 2013.11.22 07:49:00 - [21] - Quote I also came from EVE to DUST, but because of my huge interest in the lore (and gameplay that is immersive within that lore) I see things a bit differently. Ships in space are one thing, but fighting on the ground requires a great deal of variety in terms of weapons and tools. This is something that is inherent within the eve lore, but not seen in DUST just due to limited content at the moment, One can not say that 'Caldari prefer rail weapons' just because that is a common theme in their spaceships. That would imply that Caldari forces (for the most part) all use railgun weaponry all the time and limit themselves to a single fighting doctrine based on these weapons. This is simply not the case. The railgun is not a uniquely Caldari invention. The weapon systems were first created by the Gallente, who utilize them widely in space and on the ground as well. The Caldari use plasma weapons for close quarters fighting, vehicle applications, and on their spacecraft (blasters). Both races have corporations that manufacture these weapons, with their own unique designs and features. Both races also create missile and projectile (bullet-shooting) weapons as well for their own use. What I'm trying to say, is that not every railgun in New Eden is Caldari-made, nor is every Plasma (blaster) weapon Gallente or Projectile weapon Minmatar (though, it is a safer bet to say that every laser weapon IS Amarrian. Perhaps not literally, but no other race really has any interest in lasers). Should we one day get differing models for the current weapons, I have no doubt we would see varying racial designs for all the weapons that are currently the same model. Caldari plasma rifles, Gallente rail-based sniper rifles, Minmatar missile launchers, etc. Hell, even the Amarr still use projectile weapons on the ground, though they prefer the whole 'cleansing fire' trope of plasma and laser weaponry nowadays. The point is, I don't think DUST should mimic EVE in these aspects at all, because the realities of ground combat are so different from that of naval (space navy, in this case) combat. Like I've said before: all US missile destroyers carry Tomahawk missiles, but not every US serviceman carries an M16. Edit: All of this was, of course, regarding weaponry. Talking about dropsuit armour, the same idioms still apply. Gallente armour, Caldari shield, etc. Also, 'Hybrid' is a term that doesn't really fit for weapons in DUST. In EVE, hybrid weapons are called that because they use the same ammunition, and a very similar propulsion mechanism. While the rail and plasma small-arms both use magnetism to propel their projectiles, the ammo used is by no means similar. Railguns use solid flechettes, while plasma weapons use 'charges' that are solid lead + a fuse which vaporizes the lead into plasma, which is then processed into a bolt and ejected out the 'barrel'.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1035	Posted - 2013.11.22 07:59:00 - [22] - Quote I actually touched on that a bit in the Caldari section and admittedly stated that for simplicity I would call Caldari weapons "Rail" because that seems to be the current direction the development team is taking it. As you know Dust is very simplified in terms of EVE, and that's perfectly fine. What I think is most important is consistency which is often lacking from Dust in many aspects. EVE is the obvious backbone to build consistent themes off of, however if they deviate from EVE but remain consistent within Dust, I'm perfectly fine with that. The point of the matter is much of the system feels disorganized. While this is likely due to time and technical constraints on the part of the Dev team, it is an important issue that needs to be addressed. It is my hope that we see some overhaul changes with 1.8 in terms of Dropsuits. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 4229	Posted - 2013.11.22 08:26:00 - [23] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: G A L L E N T E In terms of lore, the Gallente are a fair and democratic people. They put a high value on human life and aesthetics and their designs and mechanics should reflect this. In terms of lore, the Amarr believe in crushing the opponent mentally and then physically. TheyGÇÖre ruthless and believe in committing horrible atrocities in the name of their god. Their designs should be both aesthetically intimidating and effective. Get your goddamn **** straight and don't come out with ignorant crap like this. The Amarr are what they are, they believe they are good, some believe they are evil, in reality they are neither, just a necessity. The Gallente are made out by very biased devs to be some sort of jackass intergalactic good guy cicle jerk, that not as many as they would have you believe likes because of their almost oppressive and heavy handed culture. I wont bother with you mechanics without having read them they are sound. But this kind of biased bullshit really pisses me off. "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
Dagger-Two Villore Joint Task Force Villore Accords 141	Posted - 2013.11.22 08:39:00 - [24] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: G A L L E N T E In terms of lore, the Gallente are a fair and democratic people. They put a high value on human life and aesthetics and their designs and mechanics should reflect this. In terms of lore, the Amarr believe in crushing the opponent mentally and then physically. TheyGÇÖre ruthless and believe in committing horrible atrocities in the name of their god. Their designs should be both aesthetically intimidating and effective. Get your goddamn **** straight and don't come out with ignorant crap like this. The Amarr are what they are, they believe they are good, some believe they are evil, in reality they are neither, just a necessity. The Gallente are made out by very biased devs to be some sort of jackass intergalactic good guy cicle jerk, that not as many as they would have you believe likes because of their almost oppressive and heavy handed culture. I wont bother with you mechanics without having read them they are sound. But this kind of biased bullshit really pisses me off. Wow, someone's a bit hostile, haha. You're a bit biased about the Amarr yourself, don't you think? Don't let the more recent events in Gallente history turn you away from the fact that for a great long time they were (and in many cases, still are) a fair and democratic people. I mean, we certainly don't let the recent positive attitude and human rights progress in the Empire turn US away from the fact that for a great long time, they were murdering, pillaging, genocidal bastards. >_0
Dagger-Two Villore Joint Task Force Villore Accords 141	Posted - 2013.11.22 08:58:00 - [25] - Quote Case in point: About 100 years ago, just before the Minmatar rebellion. (Taken from the story 'Theodicy') GÇ£Do you have the latest casualty estimates for Eanna?GÇ¥ There was a pause. GÇ£At last pass, sixty-three million dead, mostly from orbital bombardment directed at population centers. One million or so killed during the surface landings; another million in subsequent ground combat. At least two million were taken as slaves, but we wonGÇÖt know exact numbers for some time.GÇ¥ Thats 64 million dead, 2 million taken as slaves. ...apparently murdering 31 out of every 32 people you come across is effective 'reclaiming' Go Amarr. Keep spreading that warm, warm, laser-like love of God.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1041	Posted - 2013.11.22 09:07:00 - [26] - Quote Im sorry if you find my interpretation of the lore not to your liking, but hostilities are not conducive to a productive discussion. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 4229	Posted - 2013.11.22 09:10:00 - [27] - Quote Dagger-Two wrote: Case in point: About 100 years ago, just before the Minmatar rebellion. (Taken from the story 'Theodicy') GÇ£Do you have the latest casualty estimates for Eanna?GÇ¥ There was a pause. GÇ£At last pass, sixty-three million dead, mostly from orbital bombardment directed at population centers. One million or so killed during the surface landings; another million in subsequent ground combat. At least two million were taken as slaves, but we wonGÇÖt know exact numbers for some time.GÇ¥ Thats 64 million dead, 2 million taken as slaves. ...apparently murdering 31 out of every 32 people you come across is effective 'reclaiming' Go Amarr. Keep spreading that warm, warm, laser-like love of God. I said we were what we were, we're not evil just a part of this galaxy, I'm consistently pissed off though that CCP has basically spun dust so that we are made out to be the bad guys. You also have not mentioned that the Rebellions were a war. Their people rose up against ours and they tried to kills us. This also being a time before the Amarr were tempered by Heideran's more modest teachings. Sounds to me like 100 years ago when the Gallente bombed Caldari prime, took their home world and killed millions of people. That is 100 years ago, who the amarr were then is not who they are now. "All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all"
Dagger-Two Villore Joint Task Force Villore Accords 141	Posted - 2013.11.22 09:26:00 - [28] - Quote Actually, that was all DURING Heideran's rule. And to be fair they rose up to kill you because, well, you ENSLAVED them, not to mention murdered billions. The Amarrians KINDA had that one coming. I mean, hell, the reclaiming was so destructive and pointless that even the JOVE stepped in and said 'Yeah, we gotta end this crap'", goaded the Amarr into the battle of Vak'Aioth where they utterly annihilated / humiliated their fleets, and then smuggled Gallente weapons to the Minmatar rebels. Thank goodness Sarum is level headed / an atheist / is constantly worried that her actions might benefit the evil voice in her head so she doesn't do anything anymore.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 326	Posted - 2013.11.22 20:55:00 - [29] - Quote This thread has taken a decidely different turn. I do think that Pokey clearly has the cultural / racial thrust of things correct. Until the Dust corner of the universe is more fully synch'd into EVE Lore he's pretty spot on with what he's go to work with. That said, none of the four primary races are all good or all evil...it's definetly a matter of perspecitve and the cool thing about EVE lore is that you really can find examples or paths that touch all facets of human behavior in each race. I think that's a bit of the genius behind the universe. True - I respect you championing the Amarr and I don't think Pokey was trying overly hose you guys (much!). I was a little suprised at the response...you're known for pracitcal and well timed feedback on the forums, not going full on BURN THE HERETIC!
Dagger-Two Villore Joint Task Force Villore Accords 142	Posted - 2013.11.23 23:18:00 - [30] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: This thread has taken a decidely different turn. I do think that Pokey clearly has the cultural / racial thrust of things correct. Until the Dust corner of the universe is more fully synch'd into EVE Lore he's pretty spot on with what he's go to work with. That said, none of the four primary races are all good or all evil...it's definetly a matter of perspecitve and the cool thing about EVE lore is that you really can find examples or paths that touch all facets of human behavior in each race. I think that's a bit of the genius behind the universe. True - I respect you championing the Amarr and I don't think Pokey was trying to hose you guys (much!). I was a little suprised at the response...you're known for pracitcal and well timed feedback on the forums, not going full on BURN THE HERETIC! Absolutely, that's one of the things I love about the lore as well. Hell, even the pirate factions can blur the line between good and evil (except sansha....nobody likes the sansha). I personally don't champion the gallente, or any empire, but I love pointing out the grand atrocities the Amarr have comitted



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