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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
4271
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Posted - 2013.11.10 21:29:00 -
[31] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:I love a gal's ass. Who doesn't? I play with Arkena Wyrnspire all the time, and he uses a female character
Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant
Beta Vet
Level 4 Forum Warrior
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Cosgar
ParagonX
7584
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Posted - 2013.11.10 21:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
Damage mods, you actually have to equip, proficiency is always on and "stacks" with damage mods. Which one is OP?
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
949
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Posted - 2013.11.10 21:42:00 -
[33] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:I like how you had to put that bit in about Logi suits at the end!
Short of nerfing a logi suit into the ground, a squad of logis will always beat an assault suit, why? Because they have choice, you could make it identical to assault suits with extra equipment, they would still win because they have choice. Thats the way it should be, I think the assault should be moved down the tree and replaced with crusader and/or grenadier suits. uhh... no. Nowhere does it say that logistics is a better assault. It says it's a support platform, and yet it's used as an assault suit that can beat pretty much every assault suit.
But it is and always will be, unless you make either assaults stupidly overpowered, or logis stupidly underpowered. Its a dropsuit weilding a weapon and a ****-tonne of equipment, you could limit them to sidearms and I'd still put my money on the logi squad!
By nature of what a logi is he is gonna win in every scenario, as for the assault, what is the actual point in them over the standard racial?
The only difference between the standard and assault suits is the racial bonuses and prehaps a little more fitting, so why do we need a suit specifically for assaulting, when the standard, logistics, heavies, commamdos and hell even sentinel suits can do just as well, if not better?
I put to you its not the logistics suit that is game breaking, but the assault, noobs and vets alike spec into the suit because of the name, "assault", when really its not gonna give them that extra oomph it sounds like it will. In addition using the assault suit as yard stick is gonna make the game horrendously unbalanced.
If you wanna make it a pure "support platform" go ahead but
do you really think people are gonna play logi, just to support some brickhead assault do you really think people are gonna play sentinel, just wait for some brickhead assault do you really think people are gonna play scout, just to scan some brickhead assault do you really think people are gonna play commando, just to be av squad support for some brickhead assault do you really think peopel are gonna play pilot, just to be vehicular support for some brickhead assault
that same brickhead assault who thinks he is god's gift to new eden, because he is the one who chose to be the assault? If you answered yes to all of them, go play COD, because if you make one suit supperior for assaulting, no-one is gonna want to play a role that involves mopping up behind him.
The pen is mightier than the sword
The gun is mightier than both
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
4272
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Posted - 2013.11.10 21:48:00 -
[34] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:I like how you had to put that bit in about Logi suits at the end!
Short of nerfing a logi suit into the ground, a squad of logis will always beat an assault suit, why? Because they have choice, you could make it identical to assault suits with extra equipment, they would still win because they have choice. Thats the way it should be, I think the assault should be moved down the tree and replaced with crusader and/or grenadier suits. uhh... no. Nowhere does it say that logistics is a better assault. It says it's a support platform, and yet it's used as an assault suit that can beat pretty much every assault suit. But it is and always will be, unless you make either assaults stupidly overpowered, or logis stupidly underpowered. Its a dropsuit weilding a weapon and a ****-tonne of equipment, you could limit them to sidearms and I'd still put my money on the logi squad! By nature of what a logi is he is gonna win in every scenario, as for the assault, what is the actual point in them over the standard racial? The only difference between the standard and assault suits is the racial bonuses and prehaps a little more fitting, so why do we need a suit specifically for assaulting, when the standard, logistics, heavies, commamdos and hell even sentinel suits can do just as well, if not better? I put to you its not the logistics suit that is game breaking, but the assault, noobs and vets alike spec into the suit because of the name, "assault", when really its not gonna give them that extra oomph it sounds like it will. In addition using the assault suit as yard stick is gonna make the game horrendously unbalanced. If you wanna make it a pure "support platform" go ahead but do you really think people are gonna play logi, just to support some brickhead assault do you really think people are gonna play sentinel, just wait for some brickhead assault do you really think people are gonna play scout, just to scan some brickhead assault do you really think people are gonna play commando, just to be av squad support for some brickhead assault do you really think peopel are gonna play pilot, just to be vehicular support for some brickhead assault that same brickhead assault who thinks he is god's gift to new eden, because he is the one who chose to be the assault? If you answered yes to all of them, go play COD, because if you make one suit supperior for assaulting, no-one is gonna want to play a role that involves mopping up behind him. Logis are inherently overpowered. A sidearm only would 100% make them equal to assaults, just in support rather than in direct combat. But people don't want that, so \/o\/
Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant
Beta Vet
Level 4 Forum Warrior
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
4272
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Posted - 2013.11.10 21:48:00 -
[35] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Damage mods, you actually have to equip, proficiency is always on and "stacks" with damage mods. Which one is OP? Proficiency costs a buttload of SP for one weapon. It's to push it to the max.
Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant
Beta Vet
Level 4 Forum Warrior
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Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
949
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Posted - 2013.11.10 21:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:I like how you had to put that bit in about Logi suits at the end!
Short of nerfing a logi suit into the ground, a squad of logis will always beat an assault suit, why? Because they have choice, you could make it identical to assault suits with extra equipment, they would still win because they have choice. Thats the way it should be, I think the assault should be moved down the tree and replaced with crusader and/or grenadier suits. uhh... no. Nowhere does it say that logistics is a better assault. It says it's a support platform, and yet it's used as an assault suit that can beat pretty much every assault suit. But it is and always will be, unless you make either assaults stupidly overpowered, or logis stupidly underpowered. Its a dropsuit weilding a weapon and a ****-tonne of equipment, you could limit them to sidearms and I'd still put my money on the logi squad! By nature of what a logi is he is gonna win in every scenario, as for the assault, what is the actual point in them over the standard racial? The only difference between the standard and assault suits is the racial bonuses and prehaps a little more fitting, so why do we need a suit specifically for assaulting, when the standard, logistics, heavies, commamdos and hell even sentinel suits can do just as well, if not better? I put to you its not the logistics suit that is game breaking, but the assault, noobs and vets alike spec into the suit because of the name, "assault", when really its not gonna give them that extra oomph it sounds like it will. In addition using the assault suit as yard stick is gonna make the game horrendously unbalanced. If you wanna make it a pure "support platform" go ahead but do you really think people are gonna play logi, just to support some brickhead assault do you really think people are gonna play sentinel, just wait for some brickhead assault do you really think people are gonna play scout, just to scan some brickhead assault do you really think people are gonna play commando, just to be av squad support for some brickhead assault do you really think peopel are gonna play pilot, just to be vehicular support for some brickhead assault that same brickhead assault who thinks he is god's gift to new eden, because he is the one who chose to be the assault? If you answered yes to all of them, go play COD, because if you make one suit supperior for assaulting, no-one is gonna want to play a role that involves mopping up behind him. Logis are inherently overpowered. A sidearm only would 100% make them equal to assaults, just in support rather than in direct combat. But people don't want that, so \/o\/
Prescisely people don't want to play a suit where you have to sit back and do nothing, it wouldn't make it equal to assaults it would crush logi suits, the only time your weapon would be useful is if you get flanked at less than 30m because the smg, scrambler pistol and flaylock have terrible range, you won't kill anyone and if you seriously believe people will play a suit purposefully designed to make killing harder, you have another thing coming!
Remove the assault and replace it with either the crusader or grenadier suit!
The pen is mightier than the sword
The gun is mightier than both
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
4272
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Posted - 2013.11.10 21:59:00 -
[37] - Quote
Sorry, made a mistake, I wrote "logis are inherently overpowered" rather than aren't. Ooops.
Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant
Beta Vet
Level 4 Forum Warrior
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Vrain Matari
ZionTCD Public Disorder.
1200
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Posted - 2013.11.10 22:06:00 -
[38] - Quote
The cheapest, quickest, dirtiest(stop it! i know you're thinking about that gal ass) but most satisfying approach to the logi omni-soldier issue is:
Nerf their PG/CPU to the point where hard decisions have to be made regarding gank vs. tank. I would choose to calibrate this so that if a merc had trained every fitting cost modification skill pertinent to their loadout they could still fit a reasonable gank/tank suit. That would realistically mean something like 35-40 million sp for a competent logi.
Give logi suits serious role bonuses to the efficacy and fitting costs of equipment.
With regards to the OP, damage mods are fine. It's very clear that any merc running stacked damage mods is putting themselves at a tactical disadvantage in certain situations. That's the very definition of balance.
Recent complaints(the older complaints are far more insidious and dangerous) about damage mods are a symptom of the now-accurate TTK. There is little doubt CCP will be adjusting this down, as they've expressed in the past that they want DUST to fall into the tracking shooter part of the FPS spectrum. |
Monkey MAC
killer taxi company General Tso's Alliance
949
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Posted - 2013.11.10 22:08:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Sorry, made a mistake, I wrote "logis are inherently overpowered" rather than aren't. Ooops.
You see I believe the Logistics suit is inherently more powerful than an assault suit because of the choice of equipment, and as our repitoir of equipment grows, with shield bubbles, drones, turrets etc logi suits will become more powerful!
Its not a problem though, not if we have other suits that are just as useful like crusader suits that allow for spider tanking, lr grenadier suits that allow for more grenades. The logi is balanced for other specialist suits, nlt the assaut which isn't really a specilization!
The pen is mightier than the sword
The gun is mightier than both
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
364
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Posted - 2013.11.10 22:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
Mortedeamor wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:Your argument about the whole "math" thing isn't actually a valid argument.
Don't believe me?
Look, there are 4 types of encounters in this game:
-You suprise enemy (Advantage = You) -Enemy suprises you (Advantage = Enemy) -Both players start shooting at each other at about the same time (No advantages) -Both players walk past each other without noticing the other (No advantages)
Obviously there are some special circumstances on top of these (height, distance, weapon type, etc.), but if we assume both players are using the same loadouts and are both on even ground, then whoever shoots first will obviously be the winner. ___________________
Which brings me to my first point:
1. Damage mods are for aggressive fittings, extenders are for defensive fittings.
Wnat this means is that if you are good at flanking, keeping the advantage, and using intel (radar, scanners, squad chat), you will do even better with damage mods. The only thing that can counter advantages is reaction time or more ehp.
Shield extenders should be used if you are not trying to fight back as much, and instead only rely on your weapon to defend yourself if running away isn't an option. _________________________
2. Reaction time counters damage mods
If an enemy can react faster than you can deal enough damage to defeat them, you lose. Damage mods make sure that the enemy has little time to react, increasing the chance of success.
Shield extenders are good for players with slower reaction times, and players that find themselves constantly being the one flanked instead of the one flanking. ___________________________
3. Even grounds are where extenders shine
If you constantly find yourself in 1on1 matches where both you and the enemy standoff until one player goes down, extenders are the better option. This is where the whole "math" thing comes into play. Yes, extenders will always win over damage mods if neither player has the advantage. _______________________________
To sum up:
Damage mods are only good if you can actually deal damage to your opponent. If your opponent has the advantage, your damage mod will have been wasted. When you run damage mods you must always take the advantage to make use of the small decrease in time to kill.
Shield extenders are better for making sure you have enough time to find who is shooting at you so you can fire back. They also provide a good buffer for armor tanks as the longer you can delay the enemy eating into your armor, the less time you have to spend repping that chunk of armor.
Either way, it all depends on what kind of fitting you're using, your playstyle, your reaction time, and especially your weapon. Shotguns can OHKO without damage mods, but damage mods just increase the damage that the shot does in case you miss. The forge gun is completely different though, as damage mods can make the weapon destroy turrets in 2 shots instead of 3 or 4. This not only decreases time spent shooting/reloading, but conserves a lot more ammo too. i agree with your statement however doesnt this then explain why logi's need the high hp tiers and settle the logi=OP argument ..i mean (i dont think logis are op.) although as an amarian logi i dmg tank...my goal is to stay by my mates with my proto repper ammo and injector..and use cqc weapons and splash like md ar lr (sidearm smg) to teamfire whatever my squad mates are shooting at..my logi playstyle is different than the average logi i am a mid to long range battle support logi..\\ i feel the other logi types all validly need to tank hp (other than amar) and your statement explains why
Checkmate actually made a thread about DMG mods and calculated out that using his Amarr logi suit and AScR, dual tanking was actually exactly equal to damage tanking, out to two decimal points. I'll try to find the link...
(Funny how this always somehow comes around to some assault vs logi QQ, btw)
Templar'd for her pleasure
Amarr victor!
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KING CHECKMATE
AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS
2372
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Posted - 2013.11.10 22:37:00 -
[41] - Quote
@ Crazy Cat bro
GÖª''1. Shield Extenders > Damage mods - Someone did the math back in closed beta, shield extenders give you a better milage vs damage mods.'' I made the MAth in a QQ post i did myself against Damage mods and came to the conclusion the are actually BOTH EQUAL. a Perfect copy of my amarr Logi with 3 Cx damage mods would take the same amount of bullets to take down the same Logi but WIth 3 Cx Shield Ext, and vice versa.Uhm , you understand what i said...
GÖª''2. Gal Ass can't have both high eHP and high damage'' I dont think ANYONE is complaining vs a Gal assault. Poor dudes are one of the crappiest Assaults only surpassed by the worst of all the MIN assault...
What you SHOULD complain about are logis. We are on it.
The Best Damage Mod, its a Headshot....
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Disturbingly Bored
The Strontium Asylum
1109
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Posted - 2013.11.11 00:17:00 -
[42] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:Not to agree or disagree, but weapon damage has also gone up on many weapons as well since then. More damage per bullet means more damage added per bullet per damage mod. Again, not to be argumentative, just sayin'.
I see your argument, but there's another thing to consider.
Damage on all weapons is 10% higher than it was in Chromosome, but they also removed the 2% damage/level bonus of the weaponry skill.
For anyone with a couple million SP, there really isn't a difference in damage between the game as it is now and what we played back in the day. Noobs benefitted more from the change, because they had one less SP sink before they were competitive.
If anything, the thing that makes damage feel insane these days is that CCP has, for the most part, fixed hit detection...
¶Gêƒ__ Gò«
Gû¿GûêGûêGûêGòáGëíGëíGëíGû¬ « GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GÇó GåÆFAT GATGåÉ pÇûGûôGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûæpÇùForum Warrior LV 1 (NEXT: 100/1000XP)
¯Gò¦pÇôpÇù
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S. Public Disorder.
715
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Posted - 2013.11.11 11:36:00 -
[43] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Cosgar wrote:Damage mods, you actually have to equip, proficiency is always on and "stacks" with damage mods. Which one is OP? Proficiency costs a buttload of SP for one weapon. It's to push it to the max. The amount of SP it costs in no way negates it's impact, and most people who know how to build a fit and have over 10m SP have one weapon at Prof. 5 for that very reason.
(GÇó_GÇó)
( GÇó_GÇó)>GîÉGûá-Gûá
(GîÉGûá_Gûá)
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daishi mk03
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
324
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Posted - 2013.11.11 11:47:00 -
[44] - Quote
1.10*(1+.10*.87)=1.1957
Although there is a stacking penalty, two 10% damage mods yield a increase in damage of 19,6%.
Prof 5 yields 15%.
1.15*1.1957 = 1.375%
So, 2 damage mods bring you from 1.15 to 1.375 .. which is 22.5% from your base damage.
That's the reason, why damage always wins ... multiplicative stacking.
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
2082
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Posted - 2013.11.11 12:23:00 -
[45] - Quote
Exactly, I find it funny when people try to poke fun at or ridicule those that use damage mods, claiming no gun game, crutch, etc. Yet, they stack on more health with shield extenders as if that isn't a bigger crutch.
And logi suits needs a nerf in the number of high and low slots. Logis shouldn't be able to stack health like they do. |
Himiko Kuronaga
The Generals EoN.
2253
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Posted - 2013.11.11 12:30:00 -
[46] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Exactly, I find it funny when people try to poke fun at or ridicule those that use damage mods, claiming no gun game, crutch, etc. Yet, they stack on more health with shield extenders as if that isn't a bigger crutch.
And logi suits needs a nerf in the number of high and low slots. Logis shouldn't be able to stack health like they do.
They messed up the logi suit hard.
The idea that most of them can't carry a sidearm is backwards.
They should ONLY be able to carry a sidearm. |
Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
4291
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Posted - 2013.11.11 12:34:00 -
[47] - Quote
daishi mk03 wrote:1.10*(1+.10*.87)=1.1957
Although there is a stacking penalty, two 10% damage mods yield a increase in damage of 19,6%.
Prof 5 yields 15%.
1.15*1.1957 = 1.375%
So, 2 damage mods bring you from 1.15 to 1.375 .. which is 22.5% from your base damage.
That's the reason, why damage always wins ... multiplicative stacking.
Edit: 3 damage mods
= 1.45
30% increase from base damage 1.15 with prof 5 Actually, I tested the amount of damage it does with 2x damage mods. It's still +18.7%.
Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant
Beta Vet
Level 4 Forum Warrior
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Roofer Madness
531
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Posted - 2013.11.11 12:56:00 -
[48] - Quote
Even if you take away my light weapon slot I will still wreck your face with my SMG.
But anyways, to the topic at hand - I don't like damage mods. I've actually even thought before that dam mods should be taken out of the game. But I've grown to accept them as 1 little part of the greater diversity that the drop suit system gives this game. Some people like to glass cannon their way through red brains and others like to run around in a heavy medium suit, tanking round after round like a terminator. There is no reason to limit people's options.
The Dust 514 AFK song
Plasma Cannon FTW
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
4292
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Posted - 2013.11.11 13:02:00 -
[49] - Quote
Roofer Madness wrote:Even if you take away my light weapon slot I will still wreck your face with my SMG. But anyways, to the topic at hand - I don't like damage mods. I've actually even thought before that dam mods should be taken out of the game. But I've grown to accept them as 1 little part of the greater diversity that the drop suit system gives this game. Some people like to glass cannon their way through red brains and others like to run around in a heavy medium suit, tanking round after round like a terminator. There is no reason to limit people's options. This man has been enlightened, and for that I respect him.
You are welcome to join the cat heaven in afterli... oh wait...
Oculus Felis Semper Vigilant
Beta Vet
Level 4 Forum Warrior
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