DUST Search - [Suspicion] low TTK is CCP's intent?

Himiko Kuronaga wrote:

Delta 749 wrote:

Himiko Kuronaga wrote:

Meanwhile dying instantly to some random ass bush wookie you never saw is barrels of fun.

Situation awareness, using scanners, planning your routes to minimize your vulnerable time and limit the enemies firing options, hell using an LAV to get around those open areas and moving as a squad so you have eyes all around

Basically what Im saying is play tactically, pretend its an old Rainbow Six and remember even the heaviest armor wont save your ass so you gotta play smart and youll do fine

You are aware that your daytime television power word positive go-to tactics hold no real application in reality, right?

You're going to die against factors you have no control over, and there is no way you can cover absolutely every single angle. Your team mates won't be able to either.

You're going to die, and there is absolutely no way you will be able to prevent it.

The purpose of a tracking shooter is to attempt to reduce those "unfair deaths" by making it more of a game of physical reflexes and coordination over a prolonged period of time, as opposed to getting unlucky by turning the wrong corner and dying instantly to an enemy you never saw.

Aiming can be improved over time. Strafe tactics be improved over time. Your luck when rounding a corner will never improve. It is constant.

In short, one game is closer to a physical sport, the other is closer to reality... which historically is pretty damn boring.

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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6984	Posted - 2013.11.09 19:30:00 - [1] - Quote Lowered time-to-kill (TTK) is a product of improved hit but detection, CCP must of known it would happen as a side effect, and could have done something about it. People have been complaining about the TTK decrease since 1.4, and proposing ways to fix it such as removing the 10% buff to all weapons that happened in Uprising for starters. Why has no dev even mentioned it in past 2 months? maybe its because its what they want. Games with low TTK like COD and BF tend to have a much bigger following, this could be an attempt to get some of those players from such games interested in Dust by making the combat more friendly to them. This could have been what CCP Rouge (new executive producer) meant when he said he wants the game to be more "visceral gameplay" here. He did come from Battlefield games. I hope I'm wrong. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4771	Posted - 2013.11.09 19:32:00 - [2] - Quote We will see. Although AA and proper hit detection have done awful things to the TTK and perhaps it could have been foreseen (although I didn't see anyone crying on the forums that TTK was going to drop before these were added) CCP do not have a history of foreseeing the consequences of their changes. It could be that CCP will make changes in the future to increase average TTK. Or I could be wrong, and things will continue as they are, the issues only being exacerbated by the addition of new hitscan weapons. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
jenza aranda BetaMax. 2032	Posted - 2013.11.09 19:32:00 - [3] - Quote I honestly dont think this was the intent, it just seems that with better hit detection, people are dying faster, we are talking about things, watch this space. Dust 514 101 // Dust 514 Wiki
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 7471	Posted - 2013.11.09 19:34:00 - [4] - Quote ::puts on tin foil hat:: It's to push AUR sales for gear. More deaths = more AUR spent A little bit of my fan fiction
Avallo Kantor Paladin Survey Force Amarr Empire 216	Posted - 2013.11.09 19:34:00 - [5] - Quote In my own experience the TTK is still FAR higher than other games, such as COD, and generally doesn't seem to have decreased too much, except for the Duvolle. With my own SR I sometimes find it very hard to even get through some well tanked player's shields, let alone a kill, while other less tanked suits can be melted fairly quickly with a Charged shot and a few follow ups. Neither of which I find to be inappropriate for the game. I think the problem is less to do with every weapon / tank and instead largely lies in a small subset of weapons (albeit a popular subset)
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 4771	Posted - 2013.11.09 19:36:00 - [6] - Quote Avallo Kantor wrote: In my own experience the TTK is still FAR higher than other games, such as COD, and generally doesn't seem to have decreased too much, except for the Duvolle. With my own SR I sometimes find it very hard to even get through some well tanked player's shields, let alone a kill, while other less tanked suits can be melted fairly quickly with a Charged shot and a few follow ups. Neither of which I find to be inappropriate for the game. I think the problem is less to do with every weapon / tank and instead largely lies in a small subset of weapons (albeit a popular subset) Honestly, the scrambler rifle is one of the weapons which I would be worried about for short TTKs. It can do some insane up-front damage. Level 4 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5010	Posted - 2013.11.09 19:39:00 - [7] - Quote I have to agree with KAGEHOSHI here. It does seem highly suspect. But we also have to remember that we don't have all of the content in yet. Scout for example will get a lot of help once the cloaking equipment arrives. Then there is the fact that the maps that we have are not exactly scout friendly. About 90% of each map is just open areas which means that the city in the center of the map is the only safe refuge for scouts who apparently seem to be the ones suffering the most from this low TTK. Then there is the fact that we don't have any night-time maps that feel like they're night time. CCP, please fix the Nova Knives. Thank you.
Melchiah ARANeAE The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 252	Posted - 2013.11.09 19:45:00 - [8] - Quote I'm sure you know more than most that CCP don't publicly acknowledge problems until a few weeks before they deploy the fix for it. So I think they'll just be waiting for when they actually have a fix for the problem before they say anything. 'Insert witty signature here'
SteelDark Knight 139	Posted - 2013.11.09 19:52:00 - [9] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: ::puts on tin foil hat:: It's to push AUR sales for gear. More deaths = more AUR spent Also puts on tin foil hat
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1473	Posted - 2013.11.09 20:05:00 - [10] - Quote Either this is how CCP designed TTK to be, or they will realize that something's up, and hastily fix it in 1.7. Or a hotfix. Entire depends on the design of things. For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy

Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 384	Posted - 2013.11.09 20:19:00 - [11] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Improved butthurt detection is a product of Lowered time-to-kill (TTK)... Fixed that for you +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. CCP please make our decisions matter. "AR 514. Core Locus 514. Bricktank 514."
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 384	Posted - 2013.11.09 20:20:00 - [12] - Quote But on a serious note, the TTK has to be fixed, otherwise your SP allocation doesnt matter as much and this game becomes COD514 +¦-damage specialist since Sep ´13. CCP please make our decisions matter. "AR 514. Core Locus 514. Bricktank 514."
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 1516	Posted - 2013.11.09 20:22:00 - [13] - Quote I'm starting to think that they should remove Dmg mods as almost every protobear is rocking at least 1-2 complex Dmg mods on an AR wich is contributing to a lot of the reduced ttk people talk about "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle
Cenex Langly D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 359	Posted - 2013.11.09 20:22:00 - [14] - Quote jenza aranda wrote: I honestly dont think this was the intent, it just seems that with better hit detection, people are dying faster, we are talking about things, watch this space. Please talk faster CPM. My patience has run out. My motivation to log in has dwindled. Not even this triple Sp week is enough reason to keep me playing... Director (Management) D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
Cenex Langly D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 359	Posted - 2013.11.09 20:23:00 - [15] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: I'm starting to think that they should remove Dmg mods as almost every protobear is rocking at least 1-2 complex Dmg mods on an AR wich is contributing to a lot of the reduced ttk people talk about Most Gallente players are running 3 DMG mods. Just look how low peoples shields are. If shields were even remotely better than they are right now (they are trash) than people would use them and tank better. But they're crap, allowing people the ability to be a glass cannon without the GLASS part. Director (Management) D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
Rowdy Railgunner Xer Cloud Consortium 103	Posted - 2013.11.09 20:24:00 - [16] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Lowered time-to-kill (TTK) is a product of improved hit but detection, CCP must of known it would happen as a side effect, and could have done something about it. People have been complaining about the TTK decrease since 1.4, and proposing ways to fix it such as removing the 10% buff to all weapons that happened in Uprising for starters. Why has no dev even mentioned it in past 2 months? maybe its because its what they want. Games with low TTK like COD and BF tend to have a much bigger following, this could be an attempt to get some of those players from such games interested in Dust by making the combat more friendly to them. This could have been what CCP Rouge (new executive producer) meant when he said he wants the game to be more "visceral gameplay" here. He did come from Battlefield games. I hope I'm wrong. Translation, KAGE want's it to take longer for him to die in his tanked proto suit because he sucks at the game. TTK is not too low in this game, in some cases I feel it is far too high, i.e..heavy HP buff...
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2319	Posted - 2013.11.09 20:25:00 - [17] - Quote And tell me whats wrong with the game being more dangerous, none of that "its not tactical now" BS either since all the Rainbow Six games pre Vegas had extremely quick deaths and were all tactical shooters Im not drunk, the planet just happens to be especially wobbly today.
Himiko Kuronaga The Generals EoN. 2224	Posted - 2013.11.09 20:26:00 - [18] - Quote Its entirely possible this is there intention. Remember that anytime the testers play the game on their closed network they do not deal with the same latency and hit detection issues we do. To them, this is perfectly normal. It could be what they've been aiming for all along.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 6984	Posted - 2013.11.09 20:44:00 - [19] - Quote Rowdy Railgunner wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Lowered time-to-kill (TTK) is a product of improved hit but detection, CCP must of known it would happen as a side effect, and could have done something about it. People have been complaining about the TTK decrease since 1.4, and proposing ways to fix it such as removing the 10% buff to all weapons that happened in Uprising for starters. Why has no dev even mentioned it in past 2 months? maybe its because its what they want. Games with low TTK like COD and BF tend to have a much bigger following, this could be an attempt to get some of those players from such games interested in Dust by making the combat more friendly to them. This could have been what CCP Rouge (new executive producer) meant when he said he wants the game to be more "visceral gameplay" here. He did come from Battlefield games. I hope I'm wrong. Translation, KAGE want's it to take longer for him to die in his tanked proto suit because he sucks at the game. TTK is not too low in this game, in some cases I feel it is far too high, i.e..heavy HP buff... But I rarely ever use proto, in fact I want tiers to be a thing of the past. Personal attacks against someone instead of their arguments does not disprove the argument, that's called an ad hominem and its a logical fallacy. Low TTK makes customization meaningless, what does it matter what I use if everyone dies just as fast anyway? Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 1517	Posted - 2013.11.09 20:46:00 - [20] - Quote Cenex Langly wrote: Fire of Prometheus wrote: I'm starting to think that they should remove Dmg mods as almost every protobear is rocking at least 1-2 complex Dmg mods on an AR wich is contributing to a lot of the reduced ttk people talk about Most Gallente players are running 3 DMG mods. Just look how low peoples shields are. If shields were even remotely better than they are right now (they are trash) than people would use them and tank better. But they're crap, allowing people the ability to be a glass cannon without the GLASS part. Look at all the callogis, they can dual tank even though they are supposed to be shield tankers. I've been killed by a callogi with over 700 armour and he still hade 300/600 shields he started off with. Now I'm seeing callogis with 700 armour, 400 shield and stacked complex Dmg mods + duvolle "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle

Rowdy Railgunner Xer Cloud Consortium 106	Posted - 2013.11.09 20:49:00 - [21] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Personal attacks against someone instead of their arguments does not disprove the argument, that's called an ad hominem and its a logical fallacy. Low TTK makes customization meaningless, what does it matter what I use if everyone dies just as fast anyway? Not everyone dies fast. Go up against a proto anything. 1000 HP monsters. Here is what people want, they want to stack their 3 complex damage mods and still have a huge tank. Well guess what, that will just make the game boring.
Himiko Kuronaga The Generals EoN. 2225	Posted - 2013.11.09 21:02:00 - [22] - Quote Meanwhile dying instantly to some random ass bush wookie you never saw is barrels of fun.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2320	Posted - 2013.11.09 21:05:00 - [23] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Meanwhile dying instantly to some random ass bush wookie you never saw is barrels of fun. Situation awareness, using scanners, planning your routes to minimize your vulnerable time and limit the enemies firing options, hell using an LAV to get around those open areas and moving as a squad so you have eyes all around Basically what Im saying is play tactically, pretend its an old Rainbow Six and remember even the heaviest armor wont save your ass so you gotta play smart and youll do fine Im not drunk, the planet just happens to be especially wobbly today.
Himiko Kuronaga The Generals EoN. 2227	Posted - 2013.11.09 21:37:00 - [24] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Meanwhile dying instantly to some random ass bush wookie you never saw is barrels of fun. Situation awareness, using scanners, planning your routes to minimize your vulnerable time and limit the enemies firing options, hell using an LAV to get around those open areas and moving as a squad so you have eyes all around Basically what Im saying is play tactically, pretend its an old Rainbow Six and remember even the heaviest armor wont save your ass so you gotta play smart and youll do fine You are aware that your daytime television power word positive go-to tactics hold no real application in reality, right? You're going to die against factors you have no control over, and there is no way you can cover absolutely every single angle. Your team mates won't be able to either. You're going to die, and there is absolutely no way you will be able to prevent it. The purpose of a tracking shooter is to attempt to reduce those "unfair deaths" by making it more of a game of physical reflexes and coordination over a prolonged period of time, as opposed to getting unlucky by turning the wrong corner and dying instantly to an enemy you never saw. Aiming can be improved over time. Strafe tactics be improved over time. Your luck when rounding a corner will never improve. It is constant. In short, one game is closer to a physical sport, the other is closer to reality... which historically is pretty damn boring.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2323	Posted - 2013.11.09 21:44:00 - [25] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Delta 749 wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Meanwhile dying instantly to some random ass bush wookie you never saw is barrels of fun. Situation awareness, using scanners, planning your routes to minimize your vulnerable time and limit the enemies firing options, hell using an LAV to get around those open areas and moving as a squad so you have eyes all around Basically what Im saying is play tactically, pretend its an old Rainbow Six and remember even the heaviest armor wont save your ass so you gotta play smart and youll do fine You are aware that your daytime television power word positive go-to tactics hold no real application in reality, right? You're going to die against factors you have no control over, and there is no way you can cover absolutely every single angle. Your team mates won't be able to either. You're going to die, and there is absolutely no way you will be able to prevent it. The purpose of a tracking shooter is to attempt to reduce those "unfair deaths" by making it more of a game of physical reflexes and coordination over a prolonged period of time, as opposed to getting unlucky by turning the wrong corner and dying instantly to an enemy you never saw. Aiming can be improved over time. Strafe tactics be improved over time. Your luck when rounding a corner will never improve. It is constant. In short, one game is closer to a physical sport, the other is closer to reality... which historically is pretty damn boring. You know there are safer ways to round a corner right and that scanners do still exist in your scenario To me it seems like you are whining that you cant just go charging around without thinking and dont have a large buffer to protect you from your mistakes And didnt you claim to be a competitive player? The irony of that with you whining about death happening in a situation thats easy to control is pretty damn funny I mean hell even in your corner rounding scenario the only thing that would get around what I mentioned would be a proto scout with a scanner knowing you were coming and prepared for you in which case you just got outplayed and is not an unfair death Im not drunk, the planet just happens to be especially wobbly today.
Himiko Kuronaga The Generals EoN. 2228	Posted - 2013.11.09 21:47:00 - [26] - Quote Do you claim to be a competitive player? Because I don't recognize you as a threat. And if you're not a threat, why are you attempting to give a better player advice on how to play?
Smooth Assassin Stardust incorporation 342	Posted - 2013.11.09 21:48:00 - [27] - Quote Ever died by the guy and killed the guy too? *Assassination is my thing.*
Himiko Kuronaga The Generals EoN. 2228	Posted - 2013.11.09 21:50:00 - [28] - Quote All the time. It's called "bad netcode". You're actually allowed to fire several moments after your death, which results in fairly lame, if not semi-realistic post mortem kills.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2323	Posted - 2013.11.09 21:54:00 - [29] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Do you claim to be a competitive player? Because I don't recognize you as a threat. And if you're not a threat, why are you attempting to give a better player advice on how to play? Why would I give any weight to the opinion of someone who dies because they charge around corners not thinking? Now do you have anything to actually say to counter my claim that we have tools to avoid such a foolish death or do you want to keep throwing a fit and saying its everyone elses fault? Im not drunk, the planet just happens to be especially wobbly today.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 1923	Posted - 2013.11.09 22:03:00 - [30] - Quote I'm with Delta on this issue. In a squad when I'm supporting I die once, if ever, per game. Low TTK is a given for me if I run out in the open alone, or get left behind by my squad as they move on, or if we as a squad are caught in the middle of too much firepower; overextending. I don't believe I deserve to live if I've wandered away from the people I'm meant to be supporting and can simply weather the fire and run back to them. I don't believe I deserve to live if I've tried to kill someone with my scrambler pistol logi and been left behind, even though the very reason I equip that SP as my only weapon is to remind me I'm not meant to be slaying. I don't deserve to live if a sniper actively aims for me in yellow because he or she recognises that my repair tool is what's making a difference on the field. And yet, surely that's what higher TTK means? People who play lone wolf make their own choices and have the freedom of no responsibility to a squad, but the risk is that they lose the protection of numbers. Removing the risk, surely that would mean losing the ISK. If payouts are determined by gear lost, wouldn't we gain so much less if we had 0 deaths per game? Does customisation matter? The difference between the basic and enhanced shield extender is negligible. Sure, we can fix that. The difference between a medium and light dropsuit is negligible when they're on top of a grenade. We can fix that too. But the fact that when I run for cover when being shot at by a GEK feels as if I have more time than against a Duvolle, that means something about weapon tiers. Hell, the whole argument forgoes addressing weapons like this. If TTK is so low, why do people use Duvolles instead of basic ARs? If TTK is so low, why use officer weapons? If TTK is so low, why stack damage mods? It makes a difference. "..things that some people frankly don't even get the chance to do in real life, because it's poorly designed." -Veigar



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