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Cosgar
ParagonX
7004
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Posted - 2013.11.02 04:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
I was looking at shield extenders today while thinking about if they really deserve a penalty similar to armor plates and came up with the idea to add different variants like the ferroscale and reactive plates. First let's look at the current extenders we have now:
Basic Shield Extender ////////// 22 HP / 18 CPU / 3 PG
Enhanced Shield Extender / 50 HP / 36 CPU / 6 PG *Changed enhanced to 50 HP for better tier scaling.
Complex Shield Extender // 66 HP / 54 CPU / 11 PG
Honestly, I don't think these modules really deserve a penalty since armor plates pretty much have a drastic advantage and other shield recharge and regulator modules are pretty useless compared to simply brick tanking. Instead, why not add 2 different variants with their own drawbacks and effects:
Basic Heavy Extender/////////// 40 HP / 27 CPU / 5 PG / -10% Recharge Delay
Enhanced Heavy Extender / 75 HP / 54 CPU / 11 PG / -20% Recharge Delay
Complex Heavy Extender/// 120 HP / 81 CPU / 20 PG /-25% Recharge Delay
Basic Flux Extender ////////// 20 HP / 32 CPU / 2 PG/ -1% Recharge Delay /+10% Shield Recharge Rate
Enhanced Flux Extender / 33 HP / 64 CPU / 4 PG/ -3%Recharge Delay /+20% Shield Recharge Rate
Complex Flux Extender // 50 HP / 97 CPU / 8 PG/ -5% Recharge Delay /+30% Shield Recharge Rate
Took me a while to think of an appropriate penalty. Simply having extenders lower recharge rate would go against shield's burst tanking purpose and make them overall impractical. So instead, I went with recharge delay on the heavy extenders since regulators are so grossly underused and to better enhance the Minmatar and Caldari heavies. The idea behind this is to give enough flexibility for pure shield tanking to be viable again without overpowering armor while staying with the self sufficient battle philosophy.
Any questions, comments, suggestions, or insults?
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6871
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Posted - 2013.11.02 05:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
Enhanced shield extenders should be 44 HP, just for fitting with the trend.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads Gû¦Gû+
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Cosgar
ParagonX
7006
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Posted - 2013.11.02 05:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Enhanced shield extenders should be 44 HP, just for fitting with the trend.
Noted and adjusted.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Melchiah ARANeAE
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
193
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Posted - 2013.11.02 06:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Actually, to make the difference between standard, advanced and proto the same as armour plates, it should be 42, 54 and 66. I'd be happy for these to have a penalty to recharge delay. Say 10%, 15% and 25% to make it scale the same as an armour plates movement penalty. These could be the heavy extenders.
Then add one that's equivalent to ferroscale plates with no penalty called light shield extenders. Doing the maths to make the difference between heavy and light extenders the same as between armour plates and ferroscale gives 17, 24 and 36 HP. Obviously, these are UP as they're scaled with the UP ferroscale plates. So how about 25, 32 and 39 with the same hp scaling as heavy plates?
And I guess the flux would be the shield equivalent of the reactive plates. Reactive plates are UP as well so I shall ignore their numbers. How about 25, 32 and 39 hp; 15%, 20% and 25% increase to recharge rate and a 10%, 12% and 15% increase to recharge delay?
These numbers, to me at least, don't seem UP or OP. The basic and enhanced light and flux extender still have more hp than the current ones do. So they're not awful.
'Insert witty signature here'
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
Top Men.
232
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Posted - 2013.11.03 07:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Do you mean -25% recharge rate or +25% recharge delay for heavy extenders? Because if they give that much ehp plus reduce the delay (ie shorten the time until your recharge starts) then woos those things are WAY OP.
Also I think increasing the delay by 25% per module is too much. With just 3 heavy extenders (Pro) you have nearly doubled the delay before recharge starts. Thinking one would still prefer armor because the movement speed loss means little.
But you could conceivably have more ehp than armor tankers as you would not need a repper but armor repping would probably surpass shields since it starts instantly plus has multiple ways to repair.
However it's a very good idea as shield regulators once again would have a use. Plus the Assault class bonus would rock as would the Caldari logi bonus both of which would mitigate the delay. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
7034
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Posted - 2013.11.03 07:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Galvan Nized wrote:Do you mean -25% recharge rate or +25% recharge delay for heavy extenders? Because if they give that much ehp plus reduce the delay (ie shorten the time until your recharge starts) then woos those things are WAY OP.
Also I think increasing the delay by 25% per module is too much. With just 3 heavy extenders (Pro) you have nearly doubled the delay before recharge starts. Thinking one would still prefer armor because the movement speed loss means little.
But you could conceivably have more ehp than armor tankers as you would not need a repper but armor repping would probably surpass shields since it starts instantly plus has multiple ways to repair.
However it's a very good idea as shield regulators once again would have a use. Plus the Assault class bonus would rock as would the Caldari logi bonus both of which would mitigate the delay.
Glad you caught that, I meant them to have +X% delay.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Egypt Musk
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
72
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Posted - 2013.11.03 09:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:I was looking at shield extenders today while thinking about if they really deserve a penalty similar to armor plates and came up with the idea to add different variants like the ferroscale and reactive plates. First let's look at the current extenders we have now:
Basic Shield Extender ////////// 22 HP / 18 CPU / 3 PG
Enhanced Shield Extender / 44 HP / 36 CPU / 6 PG *Changed enhanced to 44 HP for better tier scaling.
Complex Shield Extender // 66 HP / 54 CPU / 11 PG
Honestly, I don't think these modules really deserve a penalty since armor plates pretty much have a drastic advantage and other shield recharge and regulator modules are pretty useless compared to simply brick tanking. Instead, why not add 2 different variants with their own drawbacks and effects:
Basic Heavy Extender/////////// 40 HP / 27 CPU / 5 PG / +10% Recharge Delay
Enhanced Heavy Extender / 75 HP / 54 CPU / 11 PG / +20% Recharge Delay
Complex Heavy Extender/// 120 HP / 81 CPU / 20 PG /+25% Recharge Delay
Basic Flux Extender ////////// 20 HP / 32 CPU / 2 PG/ -1% Recharge Delay /+10% Shield Recharge Rate
Enhanced Flux Extender / 33 HP / 64 CPU / 4 PG/ -3%Recharge Delay /+20% Shield Recharge Rate
Complex Flux Extender // 50 HP / 97 CPU / 8 PG/ -5% Recharge Delay /+30% Shield Recharge Rate
Took me a while to think of an appropriate penalty. Simply having extenders lower recharge rate would go against shield's burst tanking purpose and make them overall impractical. So instead, I went with recharge delay on the heavy extenders since regulators are so grossly underused and to better enhance the Minmatar and Caldari heavies. The idea behind this is to give enough flexibility for pure shield tanking to be viable again without overpowering armor while staying with the self sufficient battle philosophy.
Any questions, comments, suggestions, or insults?
If were not going to see shield resistance levels tweaked so they are not glass then this needs to be implemented immediately.
T Rex of Adetide-Anon's Official pirate radio talk show host & Realtor
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Mordecai Sanguine
What The French
104
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Posted - 2013.11.03 10:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:I was looking at shield extenders today while thinking about if they really deserve a penalty similar to armor plates and came up with the idea to add different variants like the ferroscale and reactive plates. First let's look at the current extenders we have now:
Basic Shield Extender ////////// 22 HP / 18 CPU / 3 PG
Enhanced Shield Extender / 44 HP / 36 CPU / 6 PG *Changed enhanced to 44 HP for better tier scaling.
Complex Shield Extender // 66 HP / 54 CPU / 11 PG
Honestly, I don't think these modules really deserve a penalty since armor plates pretty much have a drastic advantage and other shield recharge and regulator modules are pretty useless compared to simply brick tanking. Instead, why not add 2 different variants with their own drawbacks and effects:
Basic Heavy Extender/////////// 40 HP / 27 CPU / 5 PG / +10% Recharge Delay
Enhanced Heavy Extender / 75 HP / 54 CPU / 11 PG / +20% Recharge Delay
Complex Heavy Extender/// 120 HP / 81 CPU / 20 PG /+25% Recharge Delay
Basic Flux Extender ////////// 20 HP / 32 CPU / 2 PG/ -1% Recharge Delay /+10% Shield Recharge Rate
Enhanced Flux Extender / 33 HP / 64 CPU / 4 PG/ -3%Recharge Delay /+20% Shield Recharge Rate
Complex Flux Extender // 50 HP / 97 CPU / 8 PG/ -5% Recharge Delay /+30% Shield Recharge Rate
Took me a while to think of an appropriate penalty. Simply having extenders lower recharge rate would go against shield's burst tanking purpose and make them overall impractical. So instead, I went with recharge delay on the heavy extenders since regulators are so grossly underused and to better enhance the Minmatar and Caldari heavies. The idea behind this is to give enough flexibility for pure shield tanking to be viable again without overpowering armor while staying with the self sufficient battle philosophy.
Any questions, comments, suggestions, or insults?
Shield Tanking is ALWAYS supposed to be inferior to Armor tanking.
Just a little boost on the Enhanced could be great (33=>44).
Caldari and Minmatarr are Light units pretty versatile not shield tankers. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
462
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Posted - 2013.11.03 11:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Melchiah ARANeAE wrote:Actually, to make the difference between standard, advanced and proto the same as armour plates, it should be 42, 54 and 66.
GǪwhich I suggest is the wrong way of doing it.
IMO, a 22/44/66 progression for shield extenders is fine, and it's the stupid "basic plates > everything" progression of armour that is in need of fixing.
"Pulvis et umbra sumus. (We are but dust and shadow.)"
GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace
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Eris Ernaga
DUST University
Ivy League
637
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Posted - 2013.11.03 11:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:I was looking at shield extenders today while thinking about if they really deserve a penalty similar to armor plates and came up with the idea to add different variants like the ferroscale and reactive plates. First let's look at the current extenders we have now:
Basic Shield Extender ////////// 22 HP / 18 CPU / 3 PG
Enhanced Shield Extender / 44 HP / 36 CPU / 6 PG *Changed enhanced to 44 HP for better tier scaling.
Complex Shield Extender // 66 HP / 54 CPU / 11 PG
Honestly, I don't think these modules really deserve a penalty since armor plates pretty much have a drastic advantage and other shield recharge and regulator modules are pretty useless compared to simply brick tanking. Instead, why not add 2 different variants with their own drawbacks and effects:
Basic Heavy Extender/////////// 40 HP / 27 CPU / 5 PG / +10% Recharge Delay
Enhanced Heavy Extender / 75 HP / 54 CPU / 11 PG / +20% Recharge Delay
Complex Heavy Extender/// 120 HP / 81 CPU / 20 PG /+25% Recharge Delay
Basic Flux Extender ////////// 20 HP / 32 CPU / 2 PG/ -1% Recharge Delay /+10% Shield Recharge Rate
Enhanced Flux Extender / 33 HP / 64 CPU / 4 PG/ -3%Recharge Delay /+20% Shield Recharge Rate
Complex Flux Extender // 50 HP / 97 CPU / 8 PG/ -5% Recharge Delay /+30% Shield Recharge Rate
Took me a while to think of an appropriate penalty. Simply having extenders lower recharge rate would go against shield's burst tanking purpose and make them overall impractical. So instead, I went with recharge delay on the heavy extenders since regulators are so grossly underused and to better enhance the Minmatar and Caldari heavies. The idea behind this is to give enough flexibility for pure shield tanking to be viable again without overpowering armor while staying with the self sufficient battle philosophy.
Any questions, comments, suggestions, or insults?
This is great but kinda ripped off my thread.
Ba bang baby
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
4556
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Posted - 2013.11.03 11:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
Stack shield extenders, use fitting mods in low slots, shield tankers reign supreme once more.
Honestly, the moment armour is buffed. 
Those heavy extenders are way over the top. Even if they didn't catapult shield tanking back into a place where it's superior, then they would homogenise armour and shield tanking.
Armour does not have much fitting diversity. Yes, there are ferroscale and reactive plates. Who uses those? Do they really do anything much different from normal plates and reps? The only thing an armour tanker can fit in their midslots are damage mods unless they want to dual tank - shield tankers can fit cardiac regulators, kinetic catalyzers, shield regulators, cpu upgrades and pg upgrades as well as being able to dual tank.
I agree that the scaling of shield extenders should be tweaked so the enhanced isn't terrible - but buffs of this magnitude in the form of the new modules? Who would use normal shield extenders ever again?
I know you understand that shield tanks are based on burst tanking - this gives them huge advantages.
Let's look at these numbers objectively. Before we start:
Yes, I know you could use different fittings.
Yes, I know these numbers could be tweaked.
However, they should serve as a rough outline of what this would do, right?
Caldari assault fit:
GEK-38
Submachine Gun
Core Locus Grenade
Complex Heavy Shield Extender
Complex Heavy Shield Extender
Complex Heavy Shield Extender
Complex Damage Modifier
Complex CPU Upgrade
Complex PG Upgrade
Complex Shield Regulator
X-3 Quantum Nanohive
658 shield HP recharging at 31.25 HP/s. No movement speed penalty.
The recharge delay depends on when the penalties are applied by CCP. If they're added together and then applied, then that does a different thing to it instead of say, having the bonuses and then the penalties applied or vice-versa.
Let's just add all the penalties and bonuses together for the sake of simplicity - the number will be similar to the other methods anyway. You end up with a 47.5% penalty, putting the delay at 7.4/11.6 seconds.
Final stats on tank:
658 shield HP.
31.25 HP/s shield recharge.
7.4/11.6 second recharge delay.
5/7.35 m/s movement speed.
Gallente assault:
GEK-38
Submachine Gun
M1 Locus Grenade
Enhanced Light Damage Modifier
Enhanced Light Damage Modifier
Complex Light Damage Modifier
Complex Armour Repairer
Complex Armour Repairer
Enhanced Armour Plates
Enhanced Armour Plates
X-3 Quantum Nanohive
There is a slight damage advantage on the Gallente fit which is balanced out somewhat by the downgraded grenade.
This gets 532 armour and 12.5 HP/s regen, albeit with no delay. The movement speed is 4.64/6.82.
Comparing the two stats:
658 shield HP vs 532 armour HP = Shield wins. High HP is meant to be armour's specialty, incidentally, but here shields win by a huge margin.
31.25 shield HP/s vs 12.5 armour HP/s = Shield wins significantly. This is somewhat balanced by the next point however:
7.4/11.6 shield recharge delay vs no delay = Armour wins.
5/7.35 m/s shield move speed vs 4.64/6.82 armour move speed = Shields win.
That's a pretty big win for the armour in the delay department though, isn't it? So let's look at that a little bit.
Assuming shields are fully depleted, they will have tanked 658 HP damage over the fight. If armour drags on its death for as long as possible, holding on the full 7 seconds where shields would start to recharge (which they do, as fire does not reset the shield delay unless they're recharging, only depletion. Additionally, fights are unlikely to drag on that long) then it would gain 88 HP, so we can effectively add that on to our HP total if fights drag on that long (which is unlikely). So the armour tanker would have tanked 620 HP damage over the extended fight, at best. That renders the under-fire regen effective useless, as it has failed to provide an advantage over shields.
After the shield regen starts to kick in, it beats all the armour regen on either the third or the fifth tick and regens all the HP significantly faster.
That leaves us with shields tanking more HP, moving faster, and recovering faster between fights. Armour does slightly more damage, at the cost of being inferior in almost every other aspect - it can, however, recover at a reasonable rate between fights provided a team-mate sacrifices an equipment slot, fitting resources, and happens to be around with their repair tool.
Now, as I know you'll object along the lines of people not necessarily fitting like that, using those suits, or the numbers being tweaked, but I challenge you to come up with a set of numbers that are balanced or come up with an armour fit that isn't outperformed.
How does this fit into the battle philosophy?
It doesn't, really. Shields outperform armour at buffer tanking as well as regen tanking. It is only possible for armour to do better with a slight damage output advantage or a teamwork advantage, which requires more sacrifices.
Level 4 Forum Warrior
Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
Top Men.
233
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Posted - 2013.11.03 12:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
God I love shield vs armor debates, seriously these are the best threads. But to business.
To the guy above me (won't quote you as you're post is large).
Your forgetting that there are other mods out there that you are just casually casting off. Range amplifiers, precision enhancers are also high slots, dampeners in the lows. Hacking mods. I realize talking pure tank they are of little note, but as are kinetic catalyzers and less so cardiac regulators (speed tanking died with AA and scanners).
This really only leaves PG/CPU upgrades that shields have over armor, but damage mods kind of moot those. Both can dual tank, just means more to shields because shields suck (ehp per tier wise) so armor doesn't even waste a slot on 22 hp. With the OP changes one might consider it.
In your Assault comparison of course it's going to favor shields, the Assault suit bonus is shield oriented (needs fixed to like extra ammo or something). Thus the Caldari gets double bonus. Do the same with Logis, scouts, heavies and you will find a very different answer.
Plus you use complex shields vs enhanced plates (this may be for fitting reasons but take out a damage mod if you must.) You simply cast off the fact that an armor tanker is now dealing much more damage.
Also while you lump both shields and armor into ehp you do not consider shield regen for the armor tanker. In seems small but is at least 100 hp that will regenerate faster than a shield tankers shields. So it's not simply a regen rate of +12. Meaning from depletion it gets more advantage than what you post. In 11 seconds the armor tanker has regened 232 hp, i think Gal regen is 7 secs but may be wrong. All this before the shield guy has even started. To make that up you're talking an extra 11 secs until the shield assault surpasses armor assault. Way longer for Logis. 22 secs is an infinity for shield tankers to catch up.
There's more but this post is already huge. |
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
50
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Posted - 2013.11.03 12:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
I don't understand the huge penalty for using your highbred shields , when the computer and programming usage is penalty enough . People won't shield tank with those large numbers . With a basic or advanced suit it would be hard to fit two of those on one suit , seeing as how you WILL need other mods as well . That must be exclusively for a Heavy or Prototype suit .
I don't understand why people complain about shield tanking when it takes time for the shields to regenerate where the armor does as well but you have to go threw the shields to get to the armor . It's not like they go right back to full power instantly and to be truthful the actual power of any shield on this game be it vehicle or suit is garbage . A few shots and it's gone . The shields on a clone reanimation unit or even a storage depot seems stronger and I don't need anyone telling me that they are three thousand or such , I mean the actual strength is stronger . One shot and it's nothing to those , plus they regenerate .
I use the mods that you speak of as not being used and find them helpful even though they require some shield strength . Their computer and programming usage coupled with that actually is a problem but your proposal is actually similar and that's probably why people don't use them that much .
" Doubts are like flies and should be crushed !!!!!! " I hope that I am THE FLY SWATTER of those in my presence .
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon 514
Turalyon Alliance
4559
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Posted - 2013.11.03 14:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
Galvan Nized wrote:God I love shield vs armor debates, seriously these are the best threads. But to business.
To the guy above me (won't quote you as your post is large).
Your forgetting that there are other mods out there that you are just casually casting off. Range amplifiers in lows precision enhancers are also high slots, dampeners in the lows. Hacking mods are low. Dear god some of these need to go in high slots. I realize talking pure tank they are of little note, but as are kinetic catalyzers and less so cardiac regulators (speed tanking died with AA and scanners).
This really only leaves PG/CPU upgrades that shields have over armor, but damage mods kind of moot those. Both can dual tank, just means more to shields because shields suck (ehp per tier wise) so armor doesn't even waste a slot on 22 hp. With the OP changes one might consider it.
I agree, I love these threads. 
I am just 'casually casting them off' because they continue the trend of an overwhelming versatility advantage in shields' favour. Sure, talking pure tank they're not particularly noteworthy, but they do offer their own advantages.
There is the shield regulator, though. That offers advantage in terms of pure tank but still occupies a low slot, so that's another thing shields have over armour - the ability to dedicate all of their main slots to shield tanking should they choose to do so.
I think you're underestimating the value of some of these modules. If you put a single complex dampener on, you can evade ADV scanners with med frames. ADV scanners are the most commonly used - this is quite the tactical advantage.
Hacking modules aren't really that useful in most situations but it does give an advantage to shield tanked hacker fits over armour tanked ones.
What I really think you're understimating, though, are the kinetic catalyzers and cardiac regulators. Speed tanking may not be particularly viable in combat, but these modules grant huge advantages in terms of power projection and tactical maneuvering. A cardiac regulator means you can run almost all the way between objectives, bunny-hop like mad in combat, and they help to out-run opponents. Likewise, kinetic catalyzers can allow you to move very quickly. Aim assist or not, it is more difficult to hit a faster moving target - if you are sprinting across open ground between cover this can be very useful, for example, as well as helping your power projection.
The other thing is that apart from kinetic catalyzers, all of these low slot modules are not very fitting intensive. Damage modifiers are some of the hardest to fit modules in the game, which restricts armour fits. That's the reason why I had to use enhanced plates in that fit I theory-crafted with. Additionally, as you noted, there are CPU/PG upgrades.
Quote:
In your Assault comparison of course it's going to favor shields, the Assault suit bonus is shield oriented (needs fixed to like extra ammo or something). Thus the Caldari gets double bonus. Do the same with Logis, scouts, heavies and you will find a very different answer.
Plus you use complex shields vs enhanced plates (this may be for fitting reasons but take out a damage mod if you must.) You simply cast off the fact that an armor tanker is now dealing much more damage.
Even using complex plates assuming you have the extra fitting resources somehow, which themselves come with tradeoffs, the shield tank will still tank more HP.
The armour tanker is not dealing that much more damage. It's about 7%. That really isn't very significant in the face of the huge HP advantage that the shield tanker has in this scenario. Also, if you dropped the damage mods for complex plates not only would it still be fairly significantly outperformed, you would lose the only small advantage you have.
As for suit choice, I will do a comparison between logistics later if you wish. I'm a little pressed for time right now so I can't at the moment, but I will do later.
Quote:
Also while you lump both shields and armor into ehp you do not consider shield regen for the armor tanker. In seems small but is 150 hp (full shield skill) that will start to regenerate faster than a shield tankers shields. So it's not simply a regen rate of +12. Not even including triage hives or rep tools.
That shield regen is insignificant considering it applies to a fifth of your HP, and the delay is not that much shorter than the shield tanker with the heavy extenders.
Quote:
Your math is incorrect. 8 sec Cal depletion regen so 8*(1.25*1.25)=12.5. Meaning from depletion armor gets more advantage than what you post. In 12 seconds the armor tanker has regened 170 hp. All this before the shield guy has even started. To make that up you're talking an extra 15 secs until the shield assault surpasses armor assault ((27*12) + 150 vs 15*31.25). Way longer for Logis. 27 secs is an infinity for shield tankers to catch up, also shield assaults do not get an inherent armor repper so all hp that is damaged from their armor is lost.
Not hardly worth the slight mobility advantage you would have.
You've overlooked the shield regulator which reduces the regen delay.
The maths involved in shield regulators and these penalties here is a bit confusing - I understand your confusion here.
The numbers depend on how the bonuses and penalties are applied. Is it bonuses first, penalties second? Penalties first, bonuses second? Additive before being applied?
It gives a different result in all of those cases. I used additive before being applied for the sake of simplicity.
Additionally, while the armour tanker may be able to claw back some of the HP gap, fights simply don't last that long. Especially with the low mobility the armour tanker will be killed very quickly.
I would look at comparing the regen rates and catch-up points but I'm out of characters. 
Level 4 Forum Warrior
Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2922
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Posted - 2013.11.03 14:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
I'd still kinda like to see a signature/profile penalty on shields (vaguely equivalent to EVE in that sense) that would make a highly shielded individual "more visible" even to passive scanning. I think it makes an interesting counterpoint to a speed penalty for armor tanking. Having some sort of standard drawback is useful I think, because it gives you a reason NOT to slot that module. There's no reason for someone NOT to use an extender presently if they can fit it because damage or tank are the only really significant attributes in the game.
People can elect not to use a plate because it "makes me slower", people can opt not to use an extender because they'd be "more easily spotted" (I'd say people can opt to not use a damage mod because "overheat" or "consumes more ammo" or "increases PG draw of weapon" or.. whatever, but the plausibility of drawbacks for damage mods isn't apropos I guess), and that introduces a balance of sorts.
I think having a standardized drawback like that would be useful with respect to balance, but I don't mind the idea of other extender variants as well. The 44 hp on the enhanced is a rofl-obvious issue that probably should've been fixed a long time ago.
I'm not sure about the fitting/stats on some of the other pieces though. Taking a page from some other comparisons, let's compare a double complex with a heavy extender:
132 hp, 108 CPU, 22 PG (2x complex) 2 slots
120 hp, 81 CPU, 20 PG +25% Recharge Rate (1x Heavy Complex) 1 slot
In this case, you're able to use a single slot to more efficiently get about the same hp as would take someone 2 slots normally. The recharge rate hit may not be enough of a drawback considering the 27 CPU, 2 PG and slot you just freed up for them.
I'm not "sure" about the numbers on flux versions either. It seems like a very strong recharge bonus, but you've made the CPU draw very high (and PG relatively low, similar to a recharger I guess) that I'd have to run the numbers on fits to see how it would tumble out.
In either case, I think they'd probably be a bit better balanced with signature/profile penalties appended at the same time.
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Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
Top Men.
236
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Posted - 2013.11.04 01:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
To Wyrmspire,
Shields are more versatile, however shield tankers would much rather have some tanking ability which they do not have now. Honestly some of the mods need put in highs like shields hacking mods, maybe range amplifiers or dampeners, plus PG or CPU mods. It's a very big opportunity cost with shields because you cannot equip all those things, and shield tankers would happily give some of these mods up.
While I do downplay biotics more than I probably should one must admit they do not have the weight that they once did. Finding a build where they actually make a difference in a fight is difficult.
You discount armor tankers 150 ehp from shields, I know it seems small but that accounts to nearly 5 secs of a shield tankers regen (assault). Plus for 6 seconds (Gal 25 pt shield regen) a Gal Assault is regening 37.5 hp per sec (25 shield + 12.5 armor). So they get a 7/10 head start where they are just regening armor, then an extra 6 secs where their regen is still higher than shield tankers. So that means it's 13/16 secs until the Cal can even START closing the gap. That's huge in a fight. Shields tankers do not have the inherent armor rep unless they are logi but then shield regen is much lower.
I did not forget the shield regulator, though I do not include the skill bonus. 3 heavy Extenders (+0.25+0.25+0.25 delay)=0.75. One Regulator only takes one of those away (actually it's -0.275 because of skill bonus). So that means if multiply 8*(1.25*1.25*1.25*0.725)=11.328secs. I was one second off (your number was accurate).
However, armor reps get 6.25 per (5*1.25 from skill) so their rep is actually 12.5. It's very small change I know but it does make a slight difference. And again armor gets multiple ways to heal (throw a triage hive into the equation and bam unrivaled regen rate at ALL times.) The extra mobility just isn't worth it.
The points about versatility are completely valid but versatility does not equal tanking ability. And right now tanking ability is king. And take today's shield mods vs armor mods and laugh at the huge disparity. Let's get some balance between versatility/tanking on both sides. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
7261
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Posted - 2013.11.05 02:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:....
I understand your concerns on if this would make shield > armor again. But confining both tanking types to a specific style only limits build diversity to the buffer hybrid tanking nonsense we have now. Not sure if you play EVE or not, but both tanking types are roughly equal, not in one specific style, but in what both types bring to the table. Both can buffer tank, booth can burst tank, and both can resistance tank (which is lacking in Dust infantry) while having their own sets of strengths and weaknesses. I believe the same should be achieved in Dust for the sake of opening up more fitting options. If you haven't noticed, everyone just hybrid buffer tanks now, not just because TTK is insanely short, but because neither style has the versatility it should. When we get the Caldari, Minmatar and Gallente heavies, it's only going to make things more obvious. Shields need to be able to buffer tank, armor needs to be able to burst tank, both types need to meet at the halfway point while being different from each other without being better.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Arc-08
Knights Of Ender
Public Disorder.
121
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 02:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
this idea is quite good, i'd like some of those heavy shield extenders.
Advanced Recon Commando's (A.R.C's) --- Yeah, you don't want to mess with us.
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Talos Alomar
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1713
|
Posted - 2013.11.05 21:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
This wouldn't make shields better than armor provided we get two new armor plate types too. preferably one that adds both armor and regen while the other would provide a usable bit of armor with no speed penalty.
To bad there's nothing useful that fits that description... |
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