DUST Search - 1.7 Vehicle Fitting Accessory!

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Harpyja wrote:

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Very nice! You've saved me a lot of work in some of the calculations Im doing for a report on the upcoming vehicle changes.

Out of curiosity, have you taken cooldown time into consideration for Blasters? I'm finding that the heat buildup actually limits the sustained DPS far more than the magazine size, and because we are losing heat sinks, this could be problematic.

Regardless I will be referencing the data you've put together and of course giving due credit. Thanks for saving me a ton of Excel work Lol

Thanks!

Also thanks for pointing that out, it never would have occurred to me! Alright, maybe I would've at some later point...

So for now, heat build up is not accounted for. I'll see if I can update this tomorrow!

Until I correct this, just take (burst DPS)*[100/(heat cost per second)]/[100/(heat cost per second)+(cooldown time)]. What this does is it figures DPS compensated for cooldown times by calculating what proportion of your time is spent firing one clip without a reload. This is of course assuming you don't overheat the turret.

It's past midnight and I apologize if this equation is wrong, but it looks sound to me at the moment. It will be 100% correct when I update the DPS calculator.

Man it's too late for me to check your work haha, I'm basically awake just to keep working on my report so I can get this next section done before tomorrow night.

We should get together and chat someone, I have a deep love for vehicles and follow their development closely. I deal a lot with numbers but I think my true strength lies in conceptual analysis and development, so having someone who is as talented as you are helping crunch the numbers with me would be very beneficial. If you're interested I'll send you my contact info in-game.

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Void Echo KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND 2145	Posted - 2013.11.14 19:27:00 - [61] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Void Echo wrote: completely useless... couldn't find anything to do with vehicles at all... just found a blank spreadsheet page with nothing on it. Can't tell if serious or troll. being serious... I found nothing in the page. just empty columns... Youtube Closed Beta (Tanker) Vet Level 2.1 Forum Warrior
Harpyja Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 773	Posted - 2013.11.14 19:30:00 - [62] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Harpyja wrote: Void Echo wrote: completely useless... couldn't find anything to do with vehicles at all... just found a blank spreadsheet page with nothing on it. Can't tell if serious or troll. being serious... I found nothing in the page. just empty columns... I don't know what to tell you; it's opening up for me on my phone "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Foundation Seldon Gespenster Kompanie Villore Accords 187	Posted - 2013.11.15 08:22:00 - [63] - Quote Just a heads up but the PG amount for the Complex Light Armor Repairer is off. Listed Stats : CPU : 105 PG : 160 Actual Stats : CPU : 105 PG : 260 Small typo but it messes with some fittings pretty significantly. Thanks again for this wonderful tool by the way.
Harpyja Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 776	Posted - 2013.11.15 14:09:00 - [64] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: Just a heads up but the PG amount for the Complex Light Armor Repairer is off. Listed Stats : CPU : 105 PG : 160 Actual Stats : CPU : 105 PG : 260 Small typo but it messes with some fittings pretty significantly. Thanks again for this wonderful tool by the way. Thank you for spotting this! It's fixed now. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Giovan Galantra SAM-MIK 0	Posted - 2013.11.15 19:59:00 - [65] - Quote Took a quick look, looks really good.. only one thing I want to comment on... looks like there is going to be some real cookie cutter builds...
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1242	Posted - 2013.11.17 08:20:00 - [66] - Quote Giovan Galantra wrote: Took a quick look, looks really good.. only one thing I want to comment on... looks like there is going to be some real cookie cutter builds... Tank fits are going to be more pathetically limited than they are now. Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1242	Posted - 2013.11.17 08:34:00 - [67] - Quote I think the last time I tried to use this, I had been drinking. Now that I'm not, it doesn't look good for tanks. Fits are going to be more limited than they are now. At least now, I could put a light shield booster on my Madrugar if I so choose. Dual tanking isn't as viable as it used to be, but it's at least possible right now. Madrugar looks like one complex heavy armor rep, two complex armor hardeners, complex CPU upgrade, and a complex fuel injector. And I about wet myself fitting out a Gunnlogi. Not really sure how viable the Madrugar is going to be. Thanks for making this, Harp. Is there any way to fiddle with the skill levels involved, instead of assuming everything being at level 5? Teamwork for thee, but no teamwork for me, such is the motto of the anti vehicle infantry.
Harpyja Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 783	Posted - 2013.11.17 15:09:00 - [68] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: I think the last time I tried to use this, I had been drinking. Now that I'm not, it doesn't look good for tanks. Fits are going to be more limited than they are now. At least now, I could put a light shield booster on my Madrugar if I so choose. Dual tanking isn't as viable as it used to be, but it's at least possible right now. Madrugar looks like one complex heavy armor rep, two complex armor hardeners, complex CPU upgrade, and a complex fuel injector. And I about wet myself fitting out a Gunnlogi. Not really sure how viable the Madrugar is going to be. Thanks for making this, Harp. Is there any way to fiddle with the skill levels involved, instead of assuming everything being at level 5? Of course you can! Just change the skill level to whatever you want on the skills spreadsheet. Some skills don't have any effect for now due to unknown attributes (like turret rotation, for example). As stated now in the OP, I am working on making the vehicle version of the Dust Fitting Tool in collaboration with hydraSlav's. It will be a lot easier to add attributes to DFT than it is for this one, so it might be possible that this will become outdated once 1.7 drops, just wanted to let you and everyone else know. I hope to release the vehicle version of DFT at some point during Thanksgiving week, if not earlier. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 984	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:00:00 - [69] - Quote Very nice! You've saved me a lot of work in some of the calculations Im doing for a report on the upcoming vehicle changes. Out of curiosity, have you taken cooldown time into consideration for Blasters? I'm finding that the heat buildup actually limits the sustained DPS far more than the magazine size, and because we are losing heat sinks, this could be problematic. Regardless I will be referencing the data you've put together and of course giving due credit. Thanks for saving me a ton of Excel work ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Harpyja Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 783	Posted - 2013.11.18 06:22:00 - [70] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Very nice! You've saved me a lot of work in some of the calculations Im doing for a report on the upcoming vehicle changes. Out of curiosity, have you taken cooldown time into consideration for Blasters? I'm finding that the heat buildup actually limits the sustained DPS far more than the magazine size, and because we are losing heat sinks, this could be problematic. Regardless I will be referencing the data you've put together and of course giving due credit. Thanks for saving me a ton of Excel work Thanks! Also thanks for pointing that out, it never would have occurred to me! Alright, maybe I would've at some later point... So for now, heat build up is not accounted for. I'll see if I can update this tomorrow! Until I correct this, just take (burst DPS)*[100/(heat cost per second)]/[100/(heat cost per second)+(cooldown time)]. What this does is it figures DPS compensated for cooldown times by calculating what proportion of your time is spent firing one clip without a reload. This is of course assuming you don't overheat the turret. It's past midnight and I apologize if this equation is wrong, but it looks sound to me at the moment. It will be 100% correct when I update the DPS calculator. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 989	Posted - 2013.11.18 06:49:00 - [71] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Very nice! You've saved me a lot of work in some of the calculations Im doing for a report on the upcoming vehicle changes. Out of curiosity, have you taken cooldown time into consideration for Blasters? I'm finding that the heat buildup actually limits the sustained DPS far more than the magazine size, and because we are losing heat sinks, this could be problematic. Regardless I will be referencing the data you've put together and of course giving due credit. Thanks for saving me a ton of Excel work Thanks! Also thanks for pointing that out, it never would have occurred to me! Alright, maybe I would've at some later point... So for now, heat build up is not accounted for. I'll see if I can update this tomorrow! Until I correct this, just take (burst DPS)*[100/(heat cost per second)]/[100/(heat cost per second)+(cooldown time)]. What this does is it figures DPS compensated for cooldown times by calculating what proportion of your time is spent firing one clip without a reload. This is of course assuming you don't overheat the turret. It's past midnight and I apologize if this equation is wrong, but it looks sound to me at the moment. It will be 100% correct when I update the DPS calculator. Man it's too late for me to check your work haha, I'm basically awake just to keep working on my report so I can get this next section done before tomorrow night. We should get together and chat someone, I have a deep love for vehicles and follow their development closely. I deal a lot with numbers but I think my true strength lies in conceptual analysis and development, so having someone who is as talented as you are helping crunch the numbers with me would be very beneficial. If you're interested I'll send you my contact info in-game. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Harpyja Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 783	Posted - 2013.11.18 06:56:00 - [72] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Harpyja wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Very nice! You've saved me a lot of work in some of the calculations Im doing for a report on the upcoming vehicle changes. Out of curiosity, have you taken cooldown time into consideration for Blasters? I'm finding that the heat buildup actually limits the sustained DPS far more than the magazine size, and because we are losing heat sinks, this could be problematic. Regardless I will be referencing the data you've put together and of course giving due credit. Thanks for saving me a ton of Excel work Thanks! Also thanks for pointing that out, it never would have occurred to me! Alright, maybe I would've at some later point... So for now, heat build up is not accounted for. I'll see if I can update this tomorrow! Until I correct this, just take (burst DPS)*[100/(heat cost per second)]/[100/(heat cost per second)+(cooldown time)]. What this does is it figures DPS compensated for cooldown times by calculating what proportion of your time is spent firing one clip without a reload. This is of course assuming you don't overheat the turret. It's past midnight and I apologize if this equation is wrong, but it looks sound to me at the moment. It will be 100% correct when I update the DPS calculator. Man it's too late for me to check your work haha, I'm basically awake just to keep working on my report so I can get this next section done before tomorrow night. We should get together and chat someone, I have a deep love for vehicles and follow their development closely. I deal a lot with numbers but I think my true strength lies in conceptual analysis and development, so having someone who is as talented as you are helping crunch the numbers with me would be very beneficial. If you're interested I'll send you my contact info in-game. Problem is that I'll be on Dust maybe a week or a month at a time, with weeks or months in between. If you can get a hold of me through g-mail that'd be better. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 989	Posted - 2013.11.18 07:01:00 - [73] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Problem is that I'll be on Dust maybe a week or a month at a time, with weeks or months in between. If you can get a hold of me through g-mail that'd be better. I will be back for Thanksgiving week, so if you'd rather wait or won't mind waiting until then, we can do that in-game. Haha I was just going to send you my email, but like hell I'd post that directly here on the forums. I'm old school, I prefer communication via email or instant messenger far more than long voice chats in-game. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
hydraSlav's Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 348	Posted - 2013.11.18 14:04:00 - [74] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Haha I was just going to send you my email, but like hell I'd post that directly here on the forums. I'm old school, I prefer communication via email or instant messenger far more than long voice chats in-game. Open his spreadsheet in the OP, click the blue Share button at the top right, enter your email, click add message, explain that it's you just looking for email. He will get your message and email, and can reply now. Dust Fitting Tool
dogmanpig black market bank 46	Posted - 2013.11.19 01:41:00 - [75] - Quote harpyja.... you need to recheck you maths on shield hardeners... more so about stacking them... its wrong! and you should know better. /wag of the finger rest looks fine but i haven't battle tested your numbers so them might be more. You hate me, I hate you. Lets keep it that way. Level 7 1/3 Forum alt. "Its worth half a penny and a reach around"
Harpyja Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 786	Posted - 2013.11.19 03:27:00 - [76] - Quote dogmanpig wrote: harpyja.... you need to recheck you maths on shield hardeners... more so about stacking them... its wrong! and you should know better. /wag of the finger rest looks fine but i haven't battle tested your numbers so them might be more. What do you mean? It's working correctly. 1 shield hardener: 60% resists 2 shield hardeners: 60% + .8760%40% = ~80% resists 3 shield hardeners: 80% + .5760%20% = ~87% resists I don't see how this can possibly be wrong. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Harpyja Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 786	Posted - 2013.11.19 03:40:00 - [77] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Very nice! You've saved me a lot of work in some of the calculations Im doing for a report on the upcoming vehicle changes. Out of curiosity, have you taken cooldown time into consideration for Blasters? I'm finding that the heat buildup actually limits the sustained DPS far more than the magazine size, and because we are losing heat sinks, this could be problematic. Regardless I will be referencing the data you've put together and of course giving due credit. Thanks for saving me a ton of Excel work Thanks! Also thanks for pointing that out, it never would have occurred to me! Alright, maybe I would've at some later point... So for now, heat build up is not accounted for. I'll see if I can update this tomorrow! Until I correct this, just take (burst DPS)*[100/(heat cost per second)]/[100/(heat cost per second)+(cooldown time)]. What this does is it figures DPS compensated for cooldown times by calculating what proportion of your time is spent firing one clip without a reload. This is of course assuming you don't overheat the turret. It's past midnight and I apologize if this equation is wrong, but it looks sound to me at the moment. It will be 100% correct when I update the DPS calculator. Oh silly me, I've been working with DFT too much and I've forgotten what my tool can or cannot do! Just realized that I didn't even have the heat attributes. I think I ended up adding DPS calculations at the end, as I hadn't planned for them in the beginning. Adding them in now will take too much effort, and as I mentioned previously, I'm working on the DFT version. It will be much more "official" than this. Sorry if this causes any inconvenience to anyone. Majority of the work on the DFT version I feel has been completed, so you can expect it soon. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Vulpes Dolosus SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 301	Posted - 2013.11.19 22:34:00 - [78] - Quote Hey Harpyja, I think your resistance calculation is off, though I might be wrong. Looking at a base Myron, by your calculation, 1 active hardener gives it 3,438 shield, where I calculated, at a 40% resist, you get 1925 (1375+(1375.40)=1925, and at 60% I get 2200 (1375+(1375.6)=2200) (Because I don't know which one applies, but either way it's wrong) I may be calculating things wrong, but no matter how I work it, I can't seem to get your numbers and it doesn't make sense to me when I think about it (how can it increase over 100%?). Dropship Specialist: AKA Clinically Insane Kills- Incubus: 2; Pythons: 0; Logistics: 0; Militia: 10
Harpyja Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 787	Posted - 2013.11.20 00:46:00 - [79] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Hey Harpyja, I think your resistance calculation is off, though I might be wrong. Looking at a base Myron, by your calculation, 1 active hardener gives it 3,438 shield, where I calculated, at a 40% resist, you get 1925 (1375+(1375.40)=1925, and at 60% I get 2200 (1375+(1375.6)=2200) (Because I don't know which one applies, but either way it's wrong) I may be calculating things wrong, but no matter how I work it, I can't seem to get your numbers and it doesn't make sense to me when I think about it (how can it increase over 100%?). That's not how you figure out EHP. You take HP divided by the weapon damage multiplier. Say you have 1000 HP and the multiplier is 1. 1000/1=1000, because there are no resists. Not 1000+10001=2000. That's just wrong. Now let's say the multiplier is .5. 1000/.5=2000. If your weapon is only 50% effective, you need to deal twice as much normal damage. Makes sense, right? Now let's move on to your question. 1375 shield with 60% resists (it should be 60% resists for shield hardeners and 40% resists for armor hardeners). Weapons damage multiplier is .4. 1375/.4=3438. Again, this makes sense, because weapons aren't even half as effective, so they will have to do more than twice the normal damage which is 13752=2750. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Vulpes Dolosus SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 301	Posted - 2013.11.20 01:10:00 - [80] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Hey Harpyja, I think your resistance calculation is off, though I might be wrong. Looking at a base Myron, by your calculation, 1 active hardener gives it 3,438 shield, where I calculated, at a 40% resist, you get 1925 (1375+(1375.40)=1925, and at 60% I get 2200 (1375+(1375.6)=2200) (Because I don't know which one applies, but either way it's wrong) I may be calculating things wrong, but no matter how I work it, I can't seem to get your numbers and it doesn't make sense to me when I think about it (how can it increase over 100%?). That's not how you figure out EHP. You take HP divided by the weapon damage multiplier. Say you have 1000 HP and the multiplier is 1. 1000/1=1000, because there are no resists. Not 1000+10001=2000. That's just wrong. Now let's say the multiplier is .5. 1000/.5=2000. If your weapon is only 50% effective, you need to deal twice as much normal damage. Makes sense, right? Now let's move on to your question. 1375 shield with 60% resists (it should be 60% resists for shield hardeners and 40% resists for armor hardeners). Weapons damage multiplier is .4. 1375/.4=3438. Again, this makes sense, because weapons aren't even half as effective, so they will have to do more than twice the normal damage which is 13752=2750. Ok, so I was figuring it backwards. So the resists reduce the attacking weapons' effectiveness, not shadow-boosting the hp? That means my ADS will actually have 12k ehp! Thanks for clearing that up. Also, when do you expect to have an official Python/Incubus chart? I made one off of the Myron/Grimsnes you made and just altered some stats, but I'd like an 'official' one. Dropship Specialist: AKA Clinically Insane Kills- Incubus: 2; Pythons: 0; Logistics: 0; Militia: 10

Harpyja Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 794	Posted - 2013.11.20 02:06:00 - [81] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Ok, so I was figuring it backwards. So the resists reduce the attacking weapons' effectiveness, not shadow-boosting the hp? That means my ADS will actually have 12k ehp! Thanks for clearing that up. Also, when do you expect to have an official Python/Incubus chart? I made one off of the Myron/Grimsnes you made and just altered some stats, but I'd like an 'official' one. The 'official' one has just been posted! Of course if anyone spots any attribute error, please let me know! I had to update this in-between homework, but I gave a quick but hopefully good look at all of the attributes. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
jerrmy12 kahoalii The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 102	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:28:00 - [82] - Quote "2013.11.20 Updated attribute changes" what was changed aside from the ADS's are staying? recuruit link 5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
Harpyja Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 794	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:42:00 - [83] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: "2013.11.20 Updated attribute changes" what was changed aside from the ADS's are staying? Turret damage, ROF, max ammo Vehicle movement (shield HAVs and LAVs affected) Also corrected a typo on a fitting stat for a module, don't remember which anymore (it was off by 10 though) "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
jerrmy12 kahoalii The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 103	Posted - 2013.11.20 05:50:00 - [84] - Quote Harpyja wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: "2013.11.20 Updated attribute changes" what was changed aside from the ADS's are staying? Turret damage, ROF, max ammo Vehicle movement (shield HAVs and LAVs affected) Also corrected a typo on a fitting stat for a module, don't remember which anymore (it was off by 10 though) ps3 browser's bzd, tell me speed changes. ex 2100>2200. and whats the small missile clip? 5? recuruit link 5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
Harpyja Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 795	Posted - 2013.11.20 06:02:00 - [85] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Harpyja wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: "2013.11.20 Updated attribute changes" what was changed aside from the ADS's are staying? Turret damage, ROF, max ammo Vehicle movement (shield HAVs and LAVs affected) Also corrected a typo on a fitting stat for a module, don't remember which anymore (it was off by 10 though) ps3 browser's bzd, tell me speed changes. ex 2100>2200. and whats the small missile clip? 5? Shield HAVs -> 2150 movement (was 2400) LAVs -> around 3000 movement (was 4000) with shield slightly less Clip sizes are unchanged except for small blasters are increased Max ammo increased for blasters and small railguns ROF for large blasters increased ROF for small blasters decreased ROF for railguns increased (I believe it was for both sizes) ROF for large missiles decreased Damage for blasters increased Damage for small railguns increased Also, not sure if typo or not, but it appears that CPU upgrades have become low power modules If you want more details you'll just have to see them for yourself, there's only so much I can do from my phone at midnight "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
jerrmy12 kahoalii The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 103	Posted - 2013.11.20 06:12:00 - [86] - Quote Harpyja wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Harpyja wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: "2013.11.20 Updated attribute changes" what was changed aside from the ADS's are staying? Turret damage, ROF, max ammo Vehicle movement (shield HAVs and LAVs affected) Also corrected a typo on a fitting stat for a module, don't remember which anymore (it was off by 10 though) ps3 browser's bzd, tell me speed changes. ex 2100>2200. and whats the small missile clip? 5? Shield HAVs -> 2150 movement (was 2400) LAVs -> around 3000 movement (was 4000) with shield slightly less Clip sizes are unchanged except for small blasters are increased Max ammo increased for blasters and small railguns ROF for large blasters increased ROF for small blasters decreased ROF for railguns increased (I believe it was for both sizes) ROF for large missiles decreased Damage for "Shield HAVs -> 2150 movement (was 2400)" from vehicles part 2 and beyond? or from 1.6 but wats the small missile clip size thx btw recuruit link 5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
Tank Missile Intara Direct Action Caldari State 44	Posted - 2013.11.20 22:13:00 - [87] - Quote Just a heads up, you gave the Incubus 2H and 4L, which is what it is now, but according to CCP's stat sheet, it will be 1H 3L. "History is written by the victor-" Blah, blah blah, let's go shoot some stuff!
Harpyja Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 797	Posted - 2013.11.20 23:34:00 - [88] - Quote Tank Missile wrote: Just a heads up, you gave the Incubus 2H and 4L, which is what it is now, but according to CCP's stat sheet, it will be 1H 3L. Oh yes, thanks! I must've forgotten to change those when I copied the Grimsnes sheet. It's changed to 1H and 3L now "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Vulpes Dolosus SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 309	Posted - 2013.11.21 05:32:00 - [89] - Quote I don't think your PG mods are working right. They'll take away CPU but don't effect PG at all. Also, the tan fill-in boxes aren't changing color when the values are changed. I'll keep an eye out for more fixes. Dropship Specialist: AKA Clinically Insane Kills- Incubus: 2; Pythons: 0; Logistics: 0; Militia: 10
dogmanpig black market bank 50	Posted - 2013.11.21 06:28:00 - [90] - Quote Harpyja wrote: dogmanpig wrote: harpyja.... you need to recheck you maths on shield hardeners... more so about stacking them... its wrong! and you should know better. /wag of the finger rest looks fine but i haven't battle tested your numbers so them might be more. What do you mean? It's working correctly. 1 shield hardener: 60% resists 2 shield hardeners: 60% + .8760%40% = ~80% resists 3 shield hardeners: 80% + .5760%20% = ~87% resists I don't see how this can possibly be wrong. they give 40% not 60%. You hate me, I hate you. Lets keep it that way. Level 7 1/3 Forum alt. "Its worth half a penny and a reach around"



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