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Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
2028
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Posted - 2013.10.31 09:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, everyone knows that the skill system is a problem. Both the layout of the system, and the way we earn SP are just... not good. There's no way to catch up if you miss a week or start later than someone, and the passive bonuses make two people using exactly the same fit, have some pretty huge differences in the stats of those fits. It's messy, and nowhere near good for the overall health of the game.
I dream of a progression system that is entirely different. A dream where there is no gain cap, progression creates wealth, is cyclical, and doesn't throw a wrench in state of balance. A dream where CCP has finally given us weapon customization. In this dream, the skill tree is somewhat flattened. Skills like sharpshooter simply unlock different scopes and sights, and other support skills either do the same for their related attachments, or be removed. The ultimate goal is for SP to be a means to an end, rather than to be the incentive for playing and a major factor in balance.
I ask you to dream with me now.
Re-Defining Skillpoints:
Passive bonuses would be gone. Entirely. The entire purpose of gaining SP would be to unlock new things. (In this dream, there is much more content to make this reasonable) Think in games like Battlefield or CoD, where ranking up will grant you another weapon. Using submachine guns will unlock more submachine guns, using assault rifles will unlock more assault rifles, and so on. Player progression comes from what they use, not arbtirarily via earned and allocated SP. Passive SP will no longer be a thing, but a small portion of SP earned in battles will be 'unallocated' to allow players to 'fill out' in ways that they see fit.
'Maxing out' a given weapon could be done within a fairly short time, being Days/Weeks. "Maxing out" a given glass and all of it's gear would take weeks to a month or so. Now, that probably sounds crazy, for a game that's supposed to have a lifespan of years, right? Stay with me for a moment. What does almost every other game out there do when players "Max out"? They add a 'Prestige mode' and let them start all over again, with a fancy badge and maybe a neat new unlock. In my dream... Our "prestige" option deducts skillpoints in certain denominations (1m SP, 5m SP, 10m SP, etc.) from a player (allowing them to choose which skills are reduced) and puts those skills into a "Skill cluster". These skill clusters can then be traded to various NPC corps for Loyalty Points, or traded to other players.
The relatively short time to "Max out" works in our favor here, because if we create an incentive to 'cash out' every few months, it provides a player with something valuable and essentially refreshed the content and gives the player the goal of running through it again to earn their reward. This could easily be explained lore-wise as something like the NPC corps using our experience for the newly trained clones, creating the tutorials, and so forth. The key here is to create a reward that makes losing access to certain (or all) of your pieces of gear "worth it"
Here's the cool part though... Players could apply skill clusters (even their own) to their character, basically allowing them to "buy SP" from another player if they don't have enough to use a certain weapon, or even use it as a re-spec tool. Remember that since there are no passive bonuses, players getting a massive spike in SP no longer becomes a huge balance concern, and there is no fear of creating 'super characters'.
For monetization :
CCP could still sell boosters that allow bonus SP to be gained within matches, and possibly boost the amount that goes un-allocated, which would replace the passive boosters. Also an option is creating a time limit to how often Skill Clusters could be extracted and applied to a character (Separate timers) which could be skipped by chucking some aurum at the system.
Keeping the Current system: (But for the love of god, adding a rollover AND way for people to catch up)
I'm kind of confident that the "Skill Cluster" concept could work fairly well within the current system, as well. If we exclude the ability for SP earned passively to be inserted into a cluster, we'll never have to worry about people using massive alt farms to create 'super characters' for their main. Using the current system, I think a player should be able to create/use one skill cluster for free (Separate timers) once every three months, but allow people to pay aurum for the ability to do each right away. Clusters should come in denominations of 2, 5, and 10 million SP, and be tradeable on the player market. There is a small fear of creating 'super characters' so I think that there should be a cap imposed on how much SP someone can gain from a cluster... Probably determined by character age or total current SP (excluding SP from previous clusters NOT taken from your own clone). This is where it starts to get a bit messy, and determining what is "fair" becomes a matter of personal opinion, which I will leave to the community to decide, if they even like the idea in the first place :P |
I-Shayz-I
I-----I
1205
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Posted - 2013.10.31 11:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Honestly, the SP thing isn't an issue really...catching up isn't an issue either.
I've spent more time in this game than some people and am just more used to the game and the maps. When I first played this game I was just as noobish as anyone else.
Even a few months ago when I had 15 million sp I was way worse than I am now. Going 23-2 used to be impossible for me, yet now I'm able to do it regularly. I'm not using any different weapons, or suits, or modules...I just know the maps better, and have had more time to figure out the game.
Having my friend play this game on my character, he did just as bad as he would with a new character. And me playing on a new character, always scored top of the match.
1. NPE (New Player Experience) needs to be improved. The new tutorials were a step in the right direction but we need to introduce them to more and more as they go along instead of saying "oh hey here's some militia gear, go have fun". I didn't know about repair tools, dropships, or even certain modules until about 3 months into the game. This is BAD.
2. Matchmaking needs to be fixed, but can only be fixed when we have more players. We have a great number of experienced players and a large number of noobs but not a lot in-between. There aren't enough "medium-ground" players to provide balanced matches for, so they end up getting thrown into proto matches to be stomped. Players should play against players that have similar amounts of hours logged into the game...not based on sp, not based on days that their character has existed.
3. Your cluster idea is good, but complicates things too much, however I do agree that we need to reduce the amount of time it takes for certain skills.
For instance, unlocking weapons should take very little amount of time. The risk/reward thing already prevents players from just putting a ton of proto stuff on suits. The skills that make the weapons better though...that's what should take a long time.
4. Some sort of certificate system needs to happen in Dust. My best idea for this is more along the lines of a step-by-step guide that gives you the option to preview suits with AUR, and then get a template that gives you a list of all the skills you need to use that suit. When you can buy the next skill, you select it from the template and it crosses it off. After you complete the template, you can buy that template and it automatically registers itself into your fitting menu, where you can restock them from there.
This way, new players can see all of the options available to them, and don't waste 5 million sp on random stuff before they realize that there are repair tools in the game.
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I make logistics videos! (Insert future link here)
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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
1653
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Posted - 2013.10.31 11:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Interesting. This is kind of like the opposite of a thread I made a while ago. I suggested have all items unlocked initially, then skills focus on unlocking variants and passive bonuses.
Whilst I do love visionary threads like this and totally agree that the SP system needs an overhaul, one thing I really don't think we should do is limit SP gain to weapons we use. I used to hold your opinion on it, but I've changed my views based on my predictions that weapons are going to be changing for years to come, and new content being constantly added means it would be unwise to limit players to gaining SP and unlocking weapon customisation options only for their preferred weapon.
Once again (even I'm getting tired of this), I'd just like to point out the advantages tiercide has over this option. Weapon customisation will be so much easier to implement if all weapons were on equal footing and not distributed over tiers. Furthermore, variants! Tiercide and variants go hand in hand. What you say about 'submachine guns unlocking more submachine guns', that's perfect! Except not in terms of using the SMG constantly, but upgrading the SMG skill yourself. Progression through skill levels should not give passive bonuses (this is drawn from your ideas) but instead, unlock variants of weapons. Then proficiency should give maybe a SLIGHT passive bonus, but the main purpose of it should change to unlocking customisation options for the weapon.
> "I will show you fear in a handful of dust."
T.S. Eliot, The Wasteland
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IgniteableAura
Pro Hic Immortalis
267
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Posted - 2013.10.31 13:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
I really don't like those mechanics. It makes dust just like every other shooter with no "real" progression.
I would agree that being "good" at Dust is more about playing than getting any SP. I have no problem running totally BPO suits and getting games in the 3-5 KDR range. If I am facing a group of high SP players its a bit more difficult, but I don't think the bonuses that are applied have as much to do with it in comparison to the suit/gear.
The bonuses are what give a player their role and niche in the battlefield. The current issue, is that most of the role bonuses are not very well applied or thought out from a gameplay standpoint.
Why is it that scouts, who are supposed to be masters of stealth, can't stay off the radar when around objectives, or evade an adv scanner without level 5 scout skill. It would be balanced if level 3 scout skill let them evade adv scanner and level 5 proto scanners.
Why are logi suits the most versatile of the suits when that role should be relegated to assaults? Logi bonuses have nothing to do with their role (I understand the technical issues with bonuses to equipment) but are geared more toward "max slayer" fits with lots of equipment.
No suit should be able to stack 5 plates or 4 extenders without some major drawbacks. Currently logi/assault suits can get higher HP total than a heavy. Thats not balance.
This game is tied with EVE, it needs to have similar structures to really form that bond well. The Dust devs really need to take page from EVE's book and balance it accordingly.
At the end of the day its all about HOW the bonuses work and how well they apply to game mechanics along with the mods you can fit on a suit. Making sure you give suits a specific role without "forcing it" that way.
PHI Recruitment
or PHIsh Tank in game
Twitch
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Severus Smith
Caldari State
402
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Posted - 2013.10.31 14:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
No, sorry, but this just makes DUST more like CoD and BF which it truthfully needs to be pulling more away from.
DUST can't compete directly with multimillion dollar budget AAA shooters. Its like all the MMO's out there that tried (and failed) to compete with World of Warcraft. CoD and BF own that market. The war is over and competing with them directly is suicide. They have years of a feature headstart, a much larger budget, and an established playerbase / name. DUST needs to go niche, like EVE. EVE survives alongside WoW because it doesn't directly compete. They both have many similar aspects (missions, guilds, PvP, markets, trading, tournaments, wars, etc) but done in a completely different way. DUST needs to capitalize on it's differences too. Skill system, item loss on death, persistence via EVE connection. |
CLONE117
Planetary Response Organization
Test Friends Please Ignore
438
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Posted - 2013.10.31 15:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
cod ranking system just sucks. in my opinion.
why else do they come out with the next cod in the series so frequently?
1 new cod game a year.
with millions of ppl lined up to by them.
honestly my experience with the game was very dull and boring its not that fun.
i think dust has a much better progression system than cod when it comes to an fps shooter.
and its really the only game that can be downloaded and played over and over even while all these other games are coming out.
how the game industry seems to work now a days is some what like this.
players buy game at launch.
play it 24/7 and reach max rank with in the first few weeks.
continue to dominate or something like this until the next cod comes out. then repeat all over again.
if we look at halo3.
the player base gets tiny after the next game comes along.
and then eventually its game server will be shut down so no1 can play it online any more.
of course the game could have had the potential of lasting alot longer than it did. but it seems that the second our average player purchases the game which could be a few months after release because of the expensive prices.
they probably have a real bad start as every else is probably at an extremely high level now. which give them a disadvantage.
i kind of like the passive sp progression as it may lesson that gap.
right now the current "famous" cod and bf games every1 loves just look like remakes of the previous games. maybe with a few new features here and there but thats it. the only reason to get those games is not for the pvp. it would be for the campaign or coop modes.
id say focus on getting pve out for dust and see how well it will do first.
if players could hone their skills through pve it could ready them for the stress called pvp. and possibly appeal to more players in the long run.
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100% chance of trolls is to be expected. |
Vell0cet
Planetary Response Organization
Test Friends Please Ignore
469
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Posted - 2013.10.31 15:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Severus Smith wrote:No, sorry, but this just makes DUST more like CoD and BF which it truthfully needs to be pulling more away from.
DUST can't compete directly with multimillion dollar budget AAA shooters. Its like all the MMO's out there that tried (and failed) to compete with World of Warcraft. CoD and BF own that market. The war is over and competing with them directly is suicide. They have years of a feature headstart, a much larger budget, and an established playerbase / name. DUST needs to go niche, like EVE. EVE survives alongside WoW because it doesn't directly compete. They both have many similar aspects (missions, guilds, PvP, markets, trading, tournaments, wars, etc) but done in a completely different way. DUST needs to capitalize on it's differences too. Skill system, item loss on death, persistence via EVE connection.
QFT.
OP:
DUST is the only FPS I've ever bothered to get invested in. It's precisely because it appeals to the RPG gamer in me. Trying to make DUST into a PS2 clone with lobby-shooter mechanics is one of the most moronic ideas I've ever read. You're sacrificing everything that makes DUST unique and interesting in favor of making it easier for the new player to get invested. There are many ways to improve the NPE than destroying the foundation of the game.
The existing progression works well. You can unlock a weapon with very minimal SP. To get good, you'll want to make a deeper commitment. Sp investment costs exponential points for linear improvement. This balancing mechanism is a great way to help new players reach competent levels quickly. What we need is a second tier optional academy where new players can play against each other until they reach the point where they're somewhat competitive (2 or 3 million SP). We also need an engaging, story-based, gameplay tutorial that really shows off this game's potential from the very beginning. It should be intense, and exciting.
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Iskandar Zul Karnain
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
2211
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Posted - 2013.10.31 16:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
This is horrible.
Worst CPM post I've read.
Nova, you want a skill tree more like COD or BF? Remove skill bonuses? And, on top of that, you want repsecs every couple months - to keep things interesting? Sounds like garbage to me.
Sounds flat, and boring, and dull. Sorry, but I won't buy what you're selling.
In regards to the skill tree I agree that it needs work but certainly not in the direction you would take it. We could eliminate the useless skills, and we could cut out unnecessary overlap of repetitive skills but I don't want to play another game where I grind to unlock an ACOG and silencers over and over again.
There are plenty of good posts with ideas on how to redesign the skill tree, start with J-Lewis' post here:
The Skill Tree Think Tank: Also a core mechanic
Anyways, to say something positive about what you've posted I do like the idea of actively gaining SP on a skill for the use of that skill or weapon but it should be a secondary system to the SP system that rewards the dedicated use of a skill or weapon.
Example: Nova averages 200+ kills a week with Nova Knives - his nova knives do an extra 2% damage.
-ê HellsGÇáorm Director -ê
Gû¦Amarr VictorGû¦
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Cosgar
ParagonX
6948
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Posted - 2013.10.31 16:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
Like vehicle vs AV, it sounds like making a huge change instead of fixing minor issues:
First issue: We need an SP rollover or make SP entirely passive. No other game punishes people who don't have time to or don't feel like playing all the time like Dust. If you miss a month of WoW, your toon doesn't wind up with a lower level cap because of the xp they would've gained in that time is forever lost- why is is like that in Dust? Everyone should be gaining the same SP whether they play religiously or not.
Second Issue: The skill tree. We don't have one, it's just a series of SP sinks and blank skill prerequisites. Generalize the skill tree and fill in those blank skills. For example divide all the weapons up based on their type instead of size. Instead of light, heavy and sidearm, divide them up by solid/explosive, hybrid, and laser/EM. Putting a few levels in something like solid/explosive can unlock access to the HMG, SMG, Grenades, Mass Drivers, and the Combat Rifle. What we have now is a bit counterproductive because it takes more prerequisites to unlock and gain access to a variety of weapon types when it shouldn't.
The system you're proposing limits play style for people that want to cross train and perpetuates the issues with narrowed gameplay we have now.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
2045
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Posted - 2013.10.31 21:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:
@Nova Knife:
DUST is the only FPS I've ever bothered to get invested in. It's precisely because it appeals to the RPG gamer in me. Trying to make DUST into a PS2 clone with lobby-shooter mechanics is one of the most moronic ideas I've ever read. You're sacrificing everything that makes DUST unique and interesting in favor of making it easier for the new player to get invested. There are many ways to improve the NPE than destroying the foundation of the game.
If a progression system that boxes people in and segregates players using the exact same gear at different power levels is all that makes DUST unique, then we're in serious trouble.
My whole point is that CCP's putting too much focus on progression. They're moving forward with the entire perception that SP should be the be-all, end-all of DUST and monetizing based off that. It's crappy, and wrong. A progression system is not all there is to making a proper RPG. A progression system where your character gets exponentially powerful with each level is common in RPG's with PVE as their main focus, but generally leads to some pretty awful balance the deeper the tree goes when you involve PVP. With dust, this has been especially true. While sure, player skill will always be greater than character skill in terms of success, it's just a messy, poorly implemented system that spits in the face of balance.
I have serious concerns about the current system, for two reasons. Firstly, because it's not sustainable. Sure, they're charging for boosters to make money off it... but after someone 'maxes out' a given specialization at around 15-20m SP, there's really no incentive to buy boosters to cross-train faster. Sure... Some people will, but most probably won't. Then there's the issue of the tree as a whole. Yes, it'll take around 6-7 years or something to completely fill it... But they're going to have to keep making the tree deeper and introducing new skills to keep the progression content 'fresh' (Whereas the respec option does that for them to a lesser degree, without putting the pressure to make meaningless content just to fill the tree) This concern leads me to one dangerous fear : With an unsustainable income source, CCP will probably feel obligated to monetize in other ways. This is how companies start making "cash grabs", and we've already seen it with poorly thought out market offers like the tactical packs and the W.A.R. Kits.
The above system in my OP is admittedly not perfect, but the idea that someone can reach the top quickly and is rewarded for doing so and starting over not only allows quick turnover, but creates an incentive for people to run low end gear on a more regular basis. Suit and player variety will become much more visible, as players will not simply unlock proto and then just stroll around in that forever more. Further, it creates a cyclical system that frees CCP of the constraints of having to throw in 'filler' content and lets them focus on making things that actually matter, while creating an economic aspect to progression at the same time. |
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
185
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Posted - 2013.10.31 22:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Dude...is this the kind of stuff you are telling CCP that "we" want in Dust?
Other than roll over skill point pool i cant think of anything i would really adjust in the skill system. The RPG / MMO aspects that it brings is pretty complex and deepens the game. I can't swing a dead cat with out hitting Call of Battlefield Ghost Killzone Recon or some such game and they are all pretty much the same with a bit of variation in their flair. The current SP system is one of those facets of Dust that clearly separate it from other games of the genre.
Now, about those CPM elections.... |
Starfire Revo
DUST University
Ivy League
145
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Posted - 2013.10.31 22:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
Few things I'd like to point out. Only reason there's such a focus on boosters and such for progression right now is there's no other means of progression. There's some warzones to fight over, but those only pay in ISK and can be flipped in days. We have no other long terms goals outside of watching our skill points go up. There's no real wars to fight and no standings to grind. The current skill system has it's flaws (starting point is too low), but is functional and has a working monetization system.
The ideas behind the new faction warfare system are good too. Faction standing with unique items rewards to play for. Boosters that cost AUR to speed up that progression. It's an additional long term goal outside of skill points with another working form of monetization.
As for other forms of monetization, there's a number of great free to play models CCP can pull from. CSGO has a great weapon skin model that works pretty damn well. Hell, maybe they could copy over players being allowed to submit their own symbols/skins and making a % on the sales.
Other forms include tournaments that require an AUR ticket to enter. When the new market comes in, players with spare AUR could sell tickets to players looking to enter tournaments. This would allow third party companies interested in running serious competitions a viable business model on top of supporting CCP.
That's not even mentioning any kind of walking in stations tie in with EVE Online. People buying avatar clothing and such.
I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb
I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
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Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
2051
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Posted - 2013.10.31 22:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Dude...is this the kind of stuff you are telling CCP that "we" want in Dust?
.
Not in the slightest.
I'm a player, just like any of you. If I have an idea, I put it here first. People can then say "Yes Nova, that's awesome!" or "No nova, you're a moron."
If the latter, then I let the idea die, as it should.
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Wombat in combat
MoIden Heath PoIice Department
EoN.
118
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Posted - 2013.10.31 23:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
+1 for a rollover system. It's long due. CCP was pretty clear in the beginning that the weekly cap was a temporary thing. |
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
185
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Posted - 2013.10.31 23:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nova Knife wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Dude...is this the kind of stuff you are telling CCP that "we" want in Dust?
. Not in the slightest. I'm a player, just like any of you. If I have an idea, I put it here first. People can then say "Yes Nova, that's awesome!" or "No nova, you're a moron." If the latter, then I let the idea die, as it should.
Nova, +1 for the measured response. I came off a bit sharper than I intended.
I went back and re-read the thread and I do see why your are presenting alternate idea, however, I don't see the need for such radical change when the system actually works pretty well. It needs optimization and harmonization...not a tear down / build up. Form a long term perspective I'm also looking at the cost in developer man hours that would be used on a project of this level that wouldn't be being allocated to more critical aspects.
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
6852
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Posted - 2013.11.01 00:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'd prefer if dropsuits were tiercided, but all dropsuit skills (even basic frame ones, should stack with specialization skills) had bonuses to incentivize skilling into them.
IMO its the tiers that are the problems. MLT suits should be like the current ADV suits, and ST suits should be like the current PRO.
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads Gû¦Gû+
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Vell0cet
Planetary Response Organization
Test Friends Please Ignore
471
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Posted - 2013.11.01 02:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
I appreciate the articulate response and understand some of your concerns with the skill tree. Are you an EVE player? Because I think using the history of EVE's progression is a good indicator for the plan for DUST. EVE has demonstrated just how excellent this system is.
First, I think we can expect the tree to grow much deeper over time. I expect to see things get divided into hybrid, missile, projectile, and laser within the light, heavy and sidearm branches respectively. I also expect to see things like e-war, stealth, trading, capacitors/energy-managment. I hope we see things like jetpacks, grappling pins/magnetic boots, nano-jump drives (for backstabbing scouts), portable shields, personal combat and logistic drones, stasis webifiers, neuts, NOS, smoke screens, flash bangs, things that interfere with Tac-Net (false friendlies/enemies or inaccurate locations). I don't see CCP's SP tree running low on ideas anytime soon. I hope that the vehicle tree will (again) be divided by race once CCP implements the full racial spread of vehicles. I think we can expect players to be proficient in a few weapons and suits/roles as well as a few vehicles over time. That should take a long time for players to reach that point. I have no intention of stopping my boosters any time soon and I'm around 18m SP.
I also think you're wrong about the progression of gear. I can run a Proto Amarr Assault but have done so less than 20 times. I usually wear a mix of STD and ADV gear because it's the best bang for the ISK. I think CCP could stand to focus on featuring ISK efficiency more prominently (both in the end of match screen, and also tracking individual/corp ISK efficiency on the leaderboards). It should be a stat people are proud of (much more so than K/D). Risk vs. ISK is probably the most compelling feature of DUST, the fact that I have the freedom to risk loosing lots of ISK to "buy" an advantage is pretty genius, and causes people to play with something to loose. Leveling out gear would ruin DUST. Again, look to EVE for why this system works so well. You can fly an Omen for a couple mill, or it's T2 big brother the Zealot for 100x that, and it's probably only 2-3x better. In a close fight that's the difference between a killmail and a lossmail, but it's not worth flying the Zealot when the Omen will get the job done on a high-risk roam: risk vs. ISK. Ultimately It's not all that different between a STD suit and a PRO suit.
I think if PRO stomping is a problem this can be addressed in a couple ways. The first is increasing the price of PRO suits. Right now it's too affordable to run them 24/7 especially with the lack of expenses, and the huge payouts from PC bankrolling pub stompers. The second is to improve the matchmaker. It's a really simple concept. Every player receives a matchmaker quotient that is only known to the server based heavily on your average rank in battle, but also on your K/D, SPs, accuracy, choice of weapons, W/L, ISK efficiency, etc. If one team crushes the other team, the matchmaker will look at the winning team and check to see if the top players are significantly ahead of the median for their team. If they are the players who are many times higher than their teammates will be GÇ£penalizedGÇ¥ by having their matchmaker rank boosted. This will force them to play more difficult opponents in the future. This system will balance itself over time, accounts for improvements in gear and skills organically and keeps you in fights where you tend to be in the middle of the pack. Half the time youGÇÖll be in the top half and the other half youGÇÖll be in the bottom. That would be a balanced matchmaker and would solve a large number of DUSTGÇÖs problems.
Just to clarify, I donGÇÖt think youGÇÖre a moron, but I think tiericiding and making the game less like an RPG (and more like a pathetic GÇ£me-tooGÇ¥ competitor to other industry-leading titles) is a moronic direction for a game with a compelling future. DUST should embrace the things that make it unique, like the EVE skill system, permanent consequences, Risk vs. ISK and gear loss. It needs to appeal to RPG players who have never had a deep FPS option before (similar to how Skyrim was an RPG that appealed to many FPS players). DUST will succeed as a GÇ£thinking manGÇÖs shooterGÇ¥ and fail miserably as a Planetside 2 clone.
Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
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Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
2060
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Posted - 2013.11.01 08:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
@ Above :
Yes, I'm an Eve player. I've been playing eve for the past 7 years and Dust for the past 2. The problem with Eve's progression system, is that outside of blob fights, a battle takes much longer than the average 2-3s Time to kill in Dust. A litteral Tab-Targeting game where the majority of the PVP skill involved is fitting and controling your flight path is what you get in Eve. The PVP experience of an FPS game is leagues beyond the whole "Visceral and visually awesome space battle" experience that Eve tries to deliver.
Taking months to progress for a single unlock in Eve is no big deal, because quite simply, it's not the main focus of the game.
And then we look at dust, where it pretty much is.
This is where I have a problem with the system. CCP has a retention problem with Dust, this is no secret. One of the major parts of that is a blatant lack of things to do, that take the focus of the game away from progression and put the 'reason to play' into completing those activities. Honestly, I'm not confident in CCP's ability to ever really get that message, and I feel without strong messaging from the players that progression CANNOT be the primary incentive to play, then dust will -always- have that retention problem, and CCP will only have succeeded in creating the so called "niche within a niche" that they seem to be so afraid of.
Taking months to do something is one thing. But what happens what you get bored of it.... or worse, you get to a milestone to unlock a new thing and realize it's just terrible and you hate it? Your desire to play turns to zero when you realize that to get anything decent of another type of thing will take you weeks/months. This is the second major half of CCP's retention problem. The solution to which, is allowing players to partially re-allocate skillpoints.
Instead of just saying "Yes, let's keep a problem system and throw in an ugly solution like simply offering re-specs without addressing the serious issues" I decided to come up with a new system, that has the highest retention potential possible, and incorporates the re-spec as a measure of creating an economic and social resource that rewards the player for hitting certain milestones, over and over. No, the system is not perfect, and I am not emphatic that it must go in as suggested.
However, like said in previous posts. I believe very strongly that CCP has a hard enough time getting balance right as-is. The passive skill bonuses are simply unnecessary variables in the grand scheme of balance, and as long as CCP is going to keep introducing new content that requires new skills, if they keep saying "We need to give this a good bonus" then the inevitable power creep and balance woes we've suffered for so long are going to continue. Two people using the exact same fitting and suit should have the same stats, regardless of their time spent playing the game.
To be clear, I have no real issue with tiered gear. While I see the merit in tiericided systems that have been suggested... I think the worst of the balance problems come from people who are using the same weapons & suits but have them behave drastically different depending on SP. Having played with a completely maxed out character before (On CCP's special fanfest server. **I DO NOT HAVE A MAXED OUT CHARACTER ON THE LIVE SERVERS** ... Just to make that clear) and having gone up with that character against brand new characters, the difference is completely astounding to use even the most basic gears when facing someone of relatively equal player skill, using equal gear.
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Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
1685
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Posted - 2013.11.01 09:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
In terms of balance, passive bonuses are less 'unnecessary variables' than tiers. If we had a choice to remove one or the other, and we chose passive bonuses, it'd only be under the assumption they'll come back after rebalancing. If we remove tiers though, it would free up balancing for passive bonuses, for addition of variants, racial or otherwise, and more content in general. We should've got all the content in before adding tiers.
And that's what I've come to realise. If tiers go but come back, I wouldn't mind. I mean, look at vehicles. There are no tiers there, and now they're removing variants to rebalance, then reintroducing variants (hopefully with racial variants too). But passive skill bonuses are only changing; not disappearing altogether. We need passive bonuses as a cornerstone of progression, so that the 'thinking shooter' can outsmart the 'gun-game shooter', since we (yes, my gun-game is horrible) certainly can't outgun or outstrafe them.
Following the vehicle example, what if we remove tiers for everything, rebalanced on one tier (could be any tier, really), then considered the options? Obviously, this is no light decision. What I propose CCP does is give the community a choice: introduce ALL racial variants and lots of new content FOR ONE TIER, or keep the current tiered system and slowly release new content.
This is all under the assumption that CCP is slowed down from releasing new content because of tiers. This is simply an assumption that I made, and have not seen proof to make me think otherwise. If anyone has concrete proof that it is not the tier system that is restricting CCP from getting new content out quickly, please notify me.
> "I will show you fear in a handful of dust."
T.S. Eliot, The Wasteland
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IgniteableAura
Pro Hic Immortalis
277
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Posted - 2013.11.01 14:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nova,
To expand on the idea of taking months to do something. It takes entirely too long to complete anything in dust. In eve it takes several hours to train a new skill and use a new ship type. In dust it take MONTHS to do that. You can even look at the basic SP requirements in EVE and compare those to dust and its drastically different. CCP has set the bar too high for the SP sink. Its nothing but a grind. We dont need 7 years of skilling right now, into various skills that frankly do nothing.
Having a maxed out character will help correct. But its not greater than a couple bullets. Lets take an example. Fittings are basic because...a level 0 character would not be able to fit anything above militia. We can assume they use AUR variants to keep things simple.
Level 0 character:
Gal light frame G-1
2x basic shield extenders
2x basic armor plates
std AR & smg
94/125 CPU
14/30 PG
114 shield
260 armor
5.15 movement
7.21 sprint
200 stamina
45 scan profile
45 scan precision
10 scan radius
34 AR damage
Same suit same fittings except level 5
84/164 CPU
13/39 PG
136 shield
305 armor
5.15 movement
7.57 sprint
210 stamina
41 scan profile
41 scan precision
10 scan radius
39 AR damage
So that would be a difference of 374 hp vs 441 hp Which is a grand total of 67 hp. 5 extra damage for the AR. From a level 0 character to a maxed character.
10 bullets from level 5 to kill level 0
13 bullets from level 0 to kill level 5.
Thats very little difference, 3 extra bullets from current equipped AR. That the difference between a skilled FPS player and one who is not skilled. We can't really compare, dispersion or kick as there are no "numbers"
EDIT: the most extreme example would be in heavys. Where it would be a 10 bullet difference (same AR values as previous example). 962hp vs 1179hp.
The bonus to CPU and PG is huge, but your example of exact same fittings is not very "drastic" and has no effect at all on the outcome.
The problem lies in how quickly someone can half that difference. It would take a months (3-4) to really build a character that could reduce that difference. Which IMO is waaay to long.
Also as you can see, most of the other skills do little to the base suit stats. The biggest benefit to having a high SP character is the PG/CPU bonuses. It allows you to fit a whole lot more on your suit.
The best thing CCP could do for the progression is reduce the cost of going from level 1-4 and then raise the cost going from 4-5. Right now skilling is linear, it should be logarithmic. Something like half of a weeks cap to get from levels 1-3 then a week worth of cap from 3-4 then a months worth of cap 4-5.
That would give people the ability to cross specialize into a different suit or role quickly, get the feel for it and not feel cheated if they don't like what they did with their SP.
PHI Recruitment
or PHIsh Tank in game
Twitch
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Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders
Top Men.
1597
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Posted - 2013.11.01 15:16:00 -
[21] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Like vehicle vs AV, it sounds like making a huge change instead of fixing minor issues:
First issue: We need an SP rollover or make SP entirely passive. No other game punishes people who don't have time to or don't feel like playing all the time like Dust. If you miss a month of WoW, your toon doesn't wind up with a lower level cap because of the xp they would've gained in that time is forever lost- why is is like that in Dust? Everyone should be gaining the same SP whether they play religiously or not.
Second Issue: The skill tree. We don't have one, it's just a series of SP sinks and blank skill prerequisites. Generalize the skill tree and fill in those blank skills. For example divide all the weapons up based on their type instead of size. Instead of light, heavy and sidearm, divide them up by solid/explosive, hybrid, and laser/EM. Putting a few levels in something like solid/explosive can unlock access to the HMG, SMG, Grenades, Mass Drivers, and the Combat Rifle. What we have now is a bit counterproductive because it takes more prerequisites to unlock and gain access to a variety of weapon types when it shouldn't.
The system you're proposing limits play style for people that want to cross train and perpetuates the issues with narrowed gameplay we have now.
Listen to Cosgar...
CEO of The Corporate Raiders, We're still recruiting...
Level 1 Forum Warrior
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Vell0cet
Planetary Response Organization
Test Friends Please Ignore
475
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Posted - 2013.11.01 22:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
@Nova
I think youGÇÖre wrong about SP not being a major factor of PvP success in EVE. e.g. Imagine 2 Omen pilots going head-to-head with identical fits where one is only a couple months old and the other has his omen skills maxed. That fight wouldnGÇÖt even be close with the high SP pilot having faster, more agile maneuvering, the ability to hit from further away and do more damage each shot, using significantly less cap in the process, higher resistance and armor for a much sturdier tank with a deep cap pool that regens faster and reps for more armor. I think youGÇÖre mischaracterizing the role of SP in EVE.
Your point that SP is not the main focus of EVE but is in DUST is only partly true. I think it remains the carrot that keeps most people (and all of their alt accounts) subbed. I also think the announced FW 2.0, PC 2.0, and Market 2.0 will all contribute to addressing this issue. Players will finally have something to spend ISK on, which will make ISK more critical (as it is in EVE), this will encourage players to grind LP for the best gear to win PC, and will need to play pubs in cheap suits to fund the process. I think itGÇÖs a nicely balanced system that should help address many of the problems.
I also think we need more GÇ£sandcastlesGÇ¥ in DUST as longer-term goals. Warbarges may play some part in this, as would surface improvements in PC 2.0. Also a link to Nullsec alliances (PC 3.0?) would help as well. Brining DUST mercs into the social envelope of EVE will do much to create goals beyond just acquiring SP.
You mention the retention problem as having 2 causes, (1)a lack of things to do and (2)players putting SP into things they end up not liking. I think the above can do a lot to address (1), and if you follow the link in my sig, you can see my solution to resolve (2) by creating a testing GÇ£playgroundGÇ¥ of sorts. I also disagree that (1) and (2) are the biggest problems with player retention.
The number one issue is the NPE is horrible. The academy is incredibly lame; people donGÇÖt get a sense of the scope/complexity/potential of DUST from their first interactions with the game (itGÇÖs just people running around with ARGÇÖs). I bet if you surveyed people who uninstalled within the first week most wouldnGÇÖt have a clue what EVE is or that itGÇÖs at all related to DUST. We desperately need an interactive gameplay tutorial that fully showcases the potential of DUST from the first moment. Look at the original Halo and Portal for how this could be done. It should be funny, engaging, compelling, exciting. We need an academy with many more roles like remote reps, uplinks, heavy/medium/light suits, lasers, even dropships and tanks (give them 5 militia dropships and HAVGÇÖs or something), give people playing for the first time a sense of the depth to be had.
As content increases the player retention problem will also decrease. What we need is time to get the core gameplay in place. If playing for SP buys the Devs enough time for the content to come in, thatGÇÖs fine with me.
Your criticism for passive SP creating imbalances arenGÇÖt very accurate. See @IgniteableAuraGÇÖs analysis for an example of just how minimal those differences are. ItGÇÖs nothing like the 2 Omen pilot example I mentioned previously. This problem will also be mitigated with better matchmaking and the NPE suggestions I mentioned in the previous post with a 2nd tier academy.
IGÇÖd like to flip your assertion around on itGÇÖs head. Why should the same fit equal the same stats? It seems to me youGÇÖre advocating the removal of the one mechanism thatGÇÖs helping retain players. I know if DUST switched to the cluster system you advocate IGÇÖd be gone in a heartbeat. I donGÇÖt think IGÇÖm alone. Do you really think that system would have better retention for years down the road? The only MMO that has ever seen constant growth is EVE online, I think itGÇÖs in no small part to the long-term commitment itGÇÖs SP system encourages.
Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
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