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Vell0cet
Planetary Response Organization
Test Friends Please Ignore
469
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Posted - 2013.10.31 15:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Severus Smith wrote:No, sorry, but this just makes DUST more like CoD and BF which it truthfully needs to be pulling more away from.
DUST can't compete directly with multimillion dollar budget AAA shooters. Its like all the MMO's out there that tried (and failed) to compete with World of Warcraft. CoD and BF own that market. The war is over and competing with them directly is suicide. They have years of a feature headstart, a much larger budget, and an established playerbase / name. DUST needs to go niche, like EVE. EVE survives alongside WoW because it doesn't directly compete. They both have many similar aspects (missions, guilds, PvP, markets, trading, tournaments, wars, etc) but done in a completely different way. DUST needs to capitalize on it's differences too. Skill system, item loss on death, persistence via EVE connection.
QFT.
OP:
DUST is the only FPS I've ever bothered to get invested in. It's precisely because it appeals to the RPG gamer in me. Trying to make DUST into a PS2 clone with lobby-shooter mechanics is one of the most moronic ideas I've ever read. You're sacrificing everything that makes DUST unique and interesting in favor of making it easier for the new player to get invested. There are many ways to improve the NPE than destroying the foundation of the game.
The existing progression works well. You can unlock a weapon with very minimal SP. To get good, you'll want to make a deeper commitment. Sp investment costs exponential points for linear improvement. This balancing mechanism is a great way to help new players reach competent levels quickly. What we need is a second tier optional academy where new players can play against each other until they reach the point where they're somewhat competitive (2 or 3 million SP). We also need an engaging, story-based, gameplay tutorial that really shows off this game's potential from the very beginning. It should be intense, and exciting.
Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
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Vell0cet
Planetary Response Organization
Test Friends Please Ignore
471
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Posted - 2013.11.01 02:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
I appreciate the articulate response and understand some of your concerns with the skill tree. Are you an EVE player? Because I think using the history of EVE's progression is a good indicator for the plan for DUST. EVE has demonstrated just how excellent this system is.
First, I think we can expect the tree to grow much deeper over time. I expect to see things get divided into hybrid, missile, projectile, and laser within the light, heavy and sidearm branches respectively. I also expect to see things like e-war, stealth, trading, capacitors/energy-managment. I hope we see things like jetpacks, grappling pins/magnetic boots, nano-jump drives (for backstabbing scouts), portable shields, personal combat and logistic drones, stasis webifiers, neuts, NOS, smoke screens, flash bangs, things that interfere with Tac-Net (false friendlies/enemies or inaccurate locations). I don't see CCP's SP tree running low on ideas anytime soon. I hope that the vehicle tree will (again) be divided by race once CCP implements the full racial spread of vehicles. I think we can expect players to be proficient in a few weapons and suits/roles as well as a few vehicles over time. That should take a long time for players to reach that point. I have no intention of stopping my boosters any time soon and I'm around 18m SP.
I also think you're wrong about the progression of gear. I can run a Proto Amarr Assault but have done so less than 20 times. I usually wear a mix of STD and ADV gear because it's the best bang for the ISK. I think CCP could stand to focus on featuring ISK efficiency more prominently (both in the end of match screen, and also tracking individual/corp ISK efficiency on the leaderboards). It should be a stat people are proud of (much more so than K/D). Risk vs. ISK is probably the most compelling feature of DUST, the fact that I have the freedom to risk loosing lots of ISK to "buy" an advantage is pretty genius, and causes people to play with something to loose. Leveling out gear would ruin DUST. Again, look to EVE for why this system works so well. You can fly an Omen for a couple mill, or it's T2 big brother the Zealot for 100x that, and it's probably only 2-3x better. In a close fight that's the difference between a killmail and a lossmail, but it's not worth flying the Zealot when the Omen will get the job done on a high-risk roam: risk vs. ISK. Ultimately It's not all that different between a STD suit and a PRO suit.
I think if PRO stomping is a problem this can be addressed in a couple ways. The first is increasing the price of PRO suits. Right now it's too affordable to run them 24/7 especially with the lack of expenses, and the huge payouts from PC bankrolling pub stompers. The second is to improve the matchmaker. It's a really simple concept. Every player receives a matchmaker quotient that is only known to the server based heavily on your average rank in battle, but also on your K/D, SPs, accuracy, choice of weapons, W/L, ISK efficiency, etc. If one team crushes the other team, the matchmaker will look at the winning team and check to see if the top players are significantly ahead of the median for their team. If they are the players who are many times higher than their teammates will be GÇ£penalizedGÇ¥ by having their matchmaker rank boosted. This will force them to play more difficult opponents in the future. This system will balance itself over time, accounts for improvements in gear and skills organically and keeps you in fights where you tend to be in the middle of the pack. Half the time youGÇÖll be in the top half and the other half youGÇÖll be in the bottom. That would be a balanced matchmaker and would solve a large number of DUSTGÇÖs problems.
Just to clarify, I donGÇÖt think youGÇÖre a moron, but I think tiericiding and making the game less like an RPG (and more like a pathetic GÇ£me-tooGÇ¥ competitor to other industry-leading titles) is a moronic direction for a game with a compelling future. DUST should embrace the things that make it unique, like the EVE skill system, permanent consequences, Risk vs. ISK and gear loss. It needs to appeal to RPG players who have never had a deep FPS option before (similar to how Skyrim was an RPG that appealed to many FPS players). DUST will succeed as a GÇ£thinking manGÇÖs shooterGÇ¥ and fail miserably as a Planetside 2 clone.
Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
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Vell0cet
Planetary Response Organization
Test Friends Please Ignore
475
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Posted - 2013.11.01 22:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
@Nova
I think youGÇÖre wrong about SP not being a major factor of PvP success in EVE. e.g. Imagine 2 Omen pilots going head-to-head with identical fits where one is only a couple months old and the other has his omen skills maxed. That fight wouldnGÇÖt even be close with the high SP pilot having faster, more agile maneuvering, the ability to hit from further away and do more damage each shot, using significantly less cap in the process, higher resistance and armor for a much sturdier tank with a deep cap pool that regens faster and reps for more armor. I think youGÇÖre mischaracterizing the role of SP in EVE.
Your point that SP is not the main focus of EVE but is in DUST is only partly true. I think it remains the carrot that keeps most people (and all of their alt accounts) subbed. I also think the announced FW 2.0, PC 2.0, and Market 2.0 will all contribute to addressing this issue. Players will finally have something to spend ISK on, which will make ISK more critical (as it is in EVE), this will encourage players to grind LP for the best gear to win PC, and will need to play pubs in cheap suits to fund the process. I think itGÇÖs a nicely balanced system that should help address many of the problems.
I also think we need more GÇ£sandcastlesGÇ¥ in DUST as longer-term goals. Warbarges may play some part in this, as would surface improvements in PC 2.0. Also a link to Nullsec alliances (PC 3.0?) would help as well. Brining DUST mercs into the social envelope of EVE will do much to create goals beyond just acquiring SP.
You mention the retention problem as having 2 causes, (1)a lack of things to do and (2)players putting SP into things they end up not liking. I think the above can do a lot to address (1), and if you follow the link in my sig, you can see my solution to resolve (2) by creating a testing GÇ£playgroundGÇ¥ of sorts. I also disagree that (1) and (2) are the biggest problems with player retention.
The number one issue is the NPE is horrible. The academy is incredibly lame; people donGÇÖt get a sense of the scope/complexity/potential of DUST from their first interactions with the game (itGÇÖs just people running around with ARGÇÖs). I bet if you surveyed people who uninstalled within the first week most wouldnGÇÖt have a clue what EVE is or that itGÇÖs at all related to DUST. We desperately need an interactive gameplay tutorial that fully showcases the potential of DUST from the first moment. Look at the original Halo and Portal for how this could be done. It should be funny, engaging, compelling, exciting. We need an academy with many more roles like remote reps, uplinks, heavy/medium/light suits, lasers, even dropships and tanks (give them 5 militia dropships and HAVGÇÖs or something), give people playing for the first time a sense of the depth to be had.
As content increases the player retention problem will also decrease. What we need is time to get the core gameplay in place. If playing for SP buys the Devs enough time for the content to come in, thatGÇÖs fine with me.
Your criticism for passive SP creating imbalances arenGÇÖt very accurate. See @IgniteableAuraGÇÖs analysis for an example of just how minimal those differences are. ItGÇÖs nothing like the 2 Omen pilot example I mentioned previously. This problem will also be mitigated with better matchmaking and the NPE suggestions I mentioned in the previous post with a 2nd tier academy.
IGÇÖd like to flip your assertion around on itGÇÖs head. Why should the same fit equal the same stats? It seems to me youGÇÖre advocating the removal of the one mechanism thatGÇÖs helping retain players. I know if DUST switched to the cluster system you advocate IGÇÖd be gone in a heartbeat. I donGÇÖt think IGÇÖm alone. Do you really think that system would have better retention for years down the road? The only MMO that has ever seen constant growth is EVE online, I think itGÇÖs in no small part to the long-term commitment itGÇÖs SP system encourages.
Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
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